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(More) Proof Airport Security is Bogus

post #1 of 73
Thread Starter 
It has long been increasingly obvious that the current draconian airport security measures are in no way designed to counter terrorists - no terrorists are targeting airlines, in fact they are not targeting soft targets - but are instead serving only the following purposes:

1) Making money for the 'security companies' who install the machines

2) keeping the sheep scared and in line

3) Making money for the airport - all liquids (water, alcohol, perfume etc) must be bought at the airport and exorbitant prices

I post a quote below with link without comment - it really needs none. Those who can think rationally will draw their own conclusions. Those who fall into category#2 above will provide hilarious amusement for the rest of us in explaining it away.

Quote:
A former Marine faces trial in the United States accused of smuggling more than 60 handguns into Britain in his luggage. Steven Greenoe, 37, is alleged to have imported at least 66 weapons into the country from his home in North Carolina.

Police fear many of the guns, which included Glock and Ruger 9mm pistols, were sold to criminal gangs in north-west England.

One drive-by shooting in Wythenshawe, Manchester, last October, in which a man was hit in the leg, allegedly involved a gun linked to Greenoe.

Documents posted in US courts reveal the suspected gun runner was stopped by security staff but talked his way on to a flight. He claimed to be an arms salesman returning from a gun show and that the broken-down weapons parts were harmless dummy samples.

Former Scotland Yard counter-terrorism chief Andy Hayman said details of the case are "genuinely shocking".

Writing in a national newspaper, he said: "This makes a mockery of the stringent checks we all endure at US airports, such as removing our shoes and belts, having our toothpaste confiscated and all the other irritants. Steven Greenoe's guns could just have easily been bombs."

Greenoe, who lived with his British wife Elizabeth in Frankwell, Shrewsbury, styled himself online as a "security and investigations" specialist. Investigators have linked him to 10 flights that flew to Manchester via Raleigh-Durham International Airport and Atlanta last year.

Link One

Link Two
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 73
What about Moscow?

Airports and flights have been frequent targets. I'd rather my mother say (personally i couldn't care less about naked scans and pat downs) was gropped before boarding than burning to death in a giant fireball.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #3 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It has long been increasingly obvious that the current draconian airport security measures are in no way designed to counter terrorists - no terrorists are targeting airlines, in fact they are not targeting soft targets - but are instead serving only the following purposes:

1) Making money for the 'security companies' who install the machines

2) keeping the sheep scared and in line

3) Making money for the airport - all liquids (water, alcohol, perfume etc) must be bought at the airport and exorbitant prices

I post a quote below with link without comment - it really needs none. Those who can think rationally will draw their own conclusions. Those who fall into category#2 above will provide hilarious amusement for the rest of us in explaining it away.



Link One

Link Two

Who's being force to buy "water, alcohol, perfume etc" at the airport store? I mean really? I buy Diesel for men and toss at airport security because I forgot leave it in my checked bag so then I have to run to the sundry shop in the gate area to replace it?
post #4 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What about Moscow?

Airports and flights have been frequent targets. I'd rather my mother say (personally i couldn't care less about naked scans and pat downs) was gropped before boarding than burning to death in a giant fireball.

Side issue: question is why would someone be allowed to take many guns on to a plane?

Why do terrorists not also try this?

The Moscow issue is not related to the same 'terror' as we are talking about. It is part of the ongoing persecution of the Chechens -a war in short - and existed before 911 and would exist if 911 had not happened and is not part of any Islamist agenda in the way you might (wrongly) argue al Qaeda is supposed to be.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Who's being force to buy "water, alcohol, perfume etc" at the airport store? I mean really? I buy Diesel for men and toss at airport security because I forgot leave it in my checked bag so then I have to run to the sundry shop in the gate area to replace it?

This is gibberish. But strangely easier to understand than your usual fare. In answer to your question of 'who's being forced'.

Me.

I am.

Every time I fly.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 73
Thread Starter 
Btw....great replies so far guys! I knew you wouldn't disappoint in the comedy stakes!

This is exactly the stuff I was looking for! No mention or discussion of someone getting on in the US with 60 handguns and then getting off in the UK unhindered with the same 6o plus handguns in the hand-luggage!

And the critical dialectic hinges around some bad grammar about why no one is being forced to buy water at the airport!!! Even though if you try to take water through some goon throws it in the trash!!!

This is what made America great!!!! More please!!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Side issue: question is why would someone be allowed to take many guns on to a plane?

Why do terrorists not also try this?

The Moscow issue is not related to the same 'terror' as we are talking about. It is part of the ongoing persecution of the Chechens -a war in short - and existed before 911 and would exist if 911 had not happened and is not part of any Islamist agenda in the way you might (wrongly) argue al Qaeda is supposed to be.

But your implying that current airport security procedures have no merit because of this bizzare and shocking gun smuggling event, that's what I'm taking issue with.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #8 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But your implying that current airport security procedures have no merit because of this bizzare and shocking gun smuggling event, that's what I'm taking issue with.

OK...I qualify it. Terrorists are not targeting UK or US airports. If they were - or start to - the measures there will not stop them.

I do not believe that Moscow had the same measures in place as in the UK or US - though I stand to be corrected on that - but I still somehow believe this would not be possible in Moscow.

Btw, the Moscow authorities were on the trail of the suicide bomber - he just evaded them.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #9 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Side issue: question is why would someone be allowed to take many guns on to a plane?

Because he had a good reason:
Quote:
Documents posted in US courts reveal the suspected gun runner was stopped by security staff but talked his way on to a flight. He claimed to be an arms salesman returning from a gun show and that the broken-down weapons parts were harmless dummy samples.



Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why do terrorists not also try this?

Because this excuse has already used and now the security people know that it wasn't a good one. It will now appear in their training manual supplement "Worse Excuses Ever".
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #10 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

OK...I qualify it. Terrorists are not targeting UK or US airports. If they were - or start to - the measures there will not stop them.

I do not believe that Moscow had the same measures in place as in the UK or US - though I stand to be corrected on that - but I still somehow believe this would not be possible in Moscow.

Btw, the Moscow authorities were on the trail of the suicide bomber - he just evaded them.

Honestly, I don't care if he took 300 guns on the plane with him. Did he use them to hijack the flight or kill the passengers? That he took them on the plane was not the issue. That he was smuggling guns is. Is it the responsibility of airport security to deal with that? I am not sure where they fit in the whole spectrum of law enforcement responsibilities. Airport security should have the sole responsibility to ensure that there is safety for passengers. That doe snot mean preventing me from bringing on my large tube of toothpaste or my dangerous water bottle that can be plainly seen through and understood to be safe with simple testing if really necessary (I don't believe it is.)

Why are you wrapped up about the items he took on the plane? It shows inconsistency on the part of the security that I cannot bring a leatherman on the plane but he can bring a gun, however I am willing to bet there were no bullets so that was likely part of how he managed it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #11 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Honestly, I don't care if he took 300 guns on the plane with him. Did he use them to hijack the flight or kill the passengers? That he took them on the plane was not the issue. That he was smuggling guns is. Is it the responsibility of airport security to deal with that? I am not sure where they fit in the whole spectrum of law enforcement responsibilities. Airport security should have the sole responsibility to ensure that there is safety for passengers. That doe snot mean preventing me from bringing on my large tube of toothpaste or my dangerous water bottle that can be plainly seen through and understood to be safe with simple testing if really necessary (I don't believe it is.)

Why are you wrapped up about the items he took on the plane? It shows inconsistency on the part of the security that I cannot bring a leatherman on the plane but he can bring a gun, however I am willing to bet there were no bullets so that was likely part of how he managed it.

I am not hung up on it - as I said, I also object to not being able to bring my own water - what I am objecting to is the double standards of which there are many.

1) You cannot bring knives, pins, sharp metallic objects etc...yet you can (apparently) bring a gun.

2) If this was a Muslim trying to bring ONE gun then it would be worldwide news of a 'terror incident'.

Btw, I believe you are wrong about whether the gun worked, was loaded or whatever - if a person threatened aircrew to gain access to the cockpit with a fake weapon, broken weapon, plastic weapon or unloaded weapon: they would not know the difference.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #12 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

OK...I qualify it. Terrorists are not targeting UK or US airports. If they were - or start to - the measures there will not stop them.

I do not believe that Moscow had the same measures in place as in the UK or US - though I stand to be corrected on that - but I still somehow believe this would not be possible in Moscow.

Btw, the Moscow authorities were on the trail of the suicide bomber - he just evaded them.

How can you be so sure? The day before the shoe or the undies bomber I'm sure you would have said the same thing.
post #13 of 73
Oh, if only I were at liberty to chime in...

But sego is right on the money: the hoops you have to jump through to get on an airliner do nothing, let me say that again, NOTHING to improve your security while on that airplane (or in the airport.)

As for Moscow, that bomber never even TRIED to enter the "secure" area of the terminal, so nothing really "failed" from that viewpoint.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #14 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

How can you be so sure? The day before the shoe or the undies bomber I'm sure you would have said the same thing.

Quoting the "undies bomber" doesn't help the cause of those who support the liberty snatchers. The kid (Abdulmutallab) who had been already on a so-called "watch list", had no luggage (!), no money (!), and a one way ticket (!). The challenge to his boarding the plane by airport security officials was overridden by as of yet unidentified persons, and as a result, he was allowed to board his flight, counter to all expectations re. the (bogus) "war on terrorism". This interaction was witnessed from close quarters by a number of passengers on that same flight. Here is one passenger's observation:

The most obvious motivation, was to stage a high profile incident which could be trumpeted by the Obama administration via the media, as a victory against terrorism, to show that "security measures" are working. After all, in the absence of genuine terrorism, the most effective way of keeping the issue in the public awareness is to fake an event, without actually endangering any person or any airplane. It serves to keep the public terrorized and edgy, except the terrorizing is being done by the media and government agencies.

The security sector profits handsomely when people clamor for protection.... even from obvious phantoms.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #15 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The most obvious motivation, was to stage a high profile incident which could be trumpeted by the Obama administration via the media, as a victory against terrorism, to show that "security measures" are working...

Except in these cases (guns, shoe boy, and panty boy) it shows that the "system" does NOT work. They all got on the planes WITH weapons! They only got caught AFTER the fact because they were too stupid to build a proper device. And those who want to will always be able to, regardless of the next reactionary measure instituted by the TSA.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #16 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I am not hung up on it - as I said, I also object to not being able to bring my own water - what I am objecting to is the double standards of which there are many.

1) You cannot bring knives, pins, sharp metallic objects etc...yet you can (apparently) bring a gun.

2) If this was a Muslim trying to bring ONE gun then it would be worldwide news of a 'terror incident'.

Btw, I believe you are wrong about whether the gun worked, was loaded or whatever - if a person threatened aircrew to gain access to the cockpit with a fake weapon, broken weapon, plastic weapon or unloaded weapon: they would not know the difference.

If the guy threatened the crew to gain access he would likely have gotten nowhere as the cabin crew controls the door not the aircrew. Bowed your post contains a lot of if's in it. Wo is trying to scare who here? You are correct that it is very disturbing the double standard that was on display here. I am not arguing that. What i am arguing is your fixation on something that did not happen and how it could have happened and what might have happened. there was a crime here, and there was hypocrisy. But the crime was not due to the airport security. That was simple gullibility or at worst, gross negligence.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #17 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It has long been increasingly obvious that the current draconian airport security measures are in no way designed to counter terrorists -

The fact that they do random exams is the most draconian thing. They really need to stop being so PC and start profiling. It really annoys me when I see them doing the full pat down on some US born teenage girl wearing her sparkly belt. YES thanks TSA for protecting us from this potential TERRROOORRRIST. So far terrorists have been middle easterners, or people with a mental history. Both you can spot a mile away.
Quote:
2) keeping the sheep scared and in line

They dont care if you scared or not, the government does what it wants when it wants regardless of what anyone thinks.
-just another member
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-just another member
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post #18 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by someoneelse View Post

The fact that they do random exams is the most draconian thing. They really need to stop being so PC and start profiling. It really annoys me when I see them doing the full pat down on some US born teenage girl wearing her sparkly belt. YES thanks TSA for protecting us from this potential TERRROOORRRIST. So far terrorists have been middle easterners, or people with a mental history. Both you can spot a mile away.

Profiling is a form of racism imo. I'm very surprised they don't already do it.

Quote:
They dont care if you scared or not, the government does what it wants when it wants regardless of what anyone thinks.

Seems a lot of scared sheep on these boards though - and they all seem to be defending the Govt.

Could be some sort of connection....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #19 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Profiling is a form of racism imo. I'm very surprised they don't already do it.



Seems a lot of scared sheep on these boards though - and they all seem to be defending the Govt.

Could be some sort of connection....

I'm not convinced that these scanners don't have positive effects and the fact that they're purchased means more money will be put into them to make them better. Who knows how effective they could become? My guess is very effective, even to the point where groping people and worse is no longer required or ratial profiling, which is customary in Israel already.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #20 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm not convinced that these scanners don't have positive effects and the fact that they're purchased means more money will be put into them to make them better. Who knows how effective they could become? My guess is very effective, even to the point where groping people and worse is no longer required or ratial proiling, which is customary in Israel already.

You know the scanners are Israeli manufactured and that they themselves don't actually use them right?

I don't agree with profiling but if the Israelis use it in preference to the scanners then that should tell you something.

I have a better plan than all this though: stop fucking with other people's countries, make a firm commitment to be even-handed in Palestine, stop lying about Iran and apologize for all the shit caused so far - THEN go after the terrorists.....

......With the whole Islamic world behind you and put an end to it for good.

Or else there's always living like this for generations to come with thousands on all sides dying.

Tough call.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #21 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You know the scanners are Israeli manufactured and that they themselves don't actually use them right?

I don't agree with profiling but if the Israelis use it in preference to the scanners then that should tell you something.

I have a better plan than all this though: stop fucking with other people's countries, make a firm commitment to be even-handed in Palestine, stop lying about Iran and apologize for all the shit caused so far - THEN go after the terrorists.....

......With the whole Islamic world behind you and put an end to it for good.

Or else there's always living like this for generations to come with thousands on all sides dying.

Tough call.

I agree with you that needs to be our focus and that will do more good than any secutity, but that's not where things are for the time being.

Israel ratially profiles and says bend over and cough so maybe that's why they don't use them yet. They will get more advanced though. I can see them being widely used at Malls, train stations all over the place eventually and whilst that's sad it's better than losing friends and relatives.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #22 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

and whilst that's sad it's better than losing friends and relatives.

Is it though?

How many people have died to protect those freedoms? And now in this generation we actually let them go because we're scared.

The Terrorists have already won.

What's happening now is not prevention or 'war' it is rebuilding AFTER the war.

A war that was lost.

Along with massive amounts of 'territory' - territory like freedom and 'the way things used to be'.

Generations to come will not even know it existed.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Is it though?

How many people have died to protect those freedoms? And now in this generation we actually let them go because we're scared.

The Terrorists have already won.

What's happening now is not prevention or 'war' it is rebuilding AFTER the war.

A war that was lost.

Along with massive amounts of 'territory' - territory like freedom and 'the way things used to be'.

Generations to come will not even know it existed.

I was talking about the scanners, not the wars that are a traversty.

The terrorists have won in many ways I agree, but that's life and the decision to protect yourself against a threat is life, one where both sides can claim victory.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #24 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I was talking about the scanners, not the wars that are a traversty.

The terrorists have won in many ways I agree, but that's life and the decision to protect yourself against a threat is life, one where both sides can claim victory.

Yeah, I know....I was meaning the scanners are a sign of having lost the so-called 'War on Terror' or otherwise caved in to the 'terrorists'.

Islamist rhetoric always claimed that the West was oppressing its own people (in addition to almost everyone else of course) and that 'freedom' was just a thin veneer.

Now they have proved their point.

When I was a kid there were many, many terror attacks from the IRA. It was far worse than it is now and the threat was hundreds of times greater.

Yet this current mentality never rose its head...but then again, that threat was defeated and peace achieved.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I was talking about the scanners, not the wars that are a traversty.

The terrorists have won in many ways I agree, but that's life and the decision to protect yourself against a threat is life, one where both sides can claim victory.

This mindset is a travesty given the context of the conversation.

You cannot simply say, too bad they won, now hand over your freedoms, that's life... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #26 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah, I know....I was meaning the scanners are a sign of having lost the so-called 'War on Terror' or otherwise caved in to the 'terrorists'.

Islamist rhetoric always claimed that the West was oppressing its own people (in addition to almost everyone else of course) and that 'freedom' was just a thin veneer.

Now they have proved their point.

When I was a kid there were many, many terror attacks from the IRA. It was far worse than it is now and the threat was hundreds of times greater.

Yet this current mentality never rose its head...but then again, that threat was defeated and peace achieved.

Responses were bound to be different then. I went to northern ireland and stayed with friends for a week when I was 10 yrs old and then went the next year for two weeks on my own. When i went to a shopping centre there was a checkpoint, this is in Belfast, with police armed with what was probably machine guns.

Stayed in Portaferry, had a great time!
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #27 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Responses were bound to be different then. I went to northern ireland and stayed with friends for a week when I was 10 yrs old and then went the next year for two weeks on my own. When i went to a shopping centre there was a checkpoint, this is in Belfast, with police armed with what was probably machine guns.

Stayed in Portaferry, had a great time!

Yeah but that was the British occupying a country....I was thinking more of the climate of cities under threat of bomb attacks on a daily basis.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #28 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

This mindset is a travesty given the context of the conversation.

You cannot simply say, too bad they won, now hand over your freedoms, that's life... \

Some freedoms, far from all. There's plenty that I don't like seeing lost, but scanners isn't one of them.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #29 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah but that was the British occupying a country....I was thinking more of the climate of cities under threat of bomb attacks on a daily basis.

You can guarantee that if scanners were advanced enough then they would have been used.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #30 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You can guarantee that if scanners were advanced enough then they would have been used.

Can you guarantee that?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #31 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Some freedoms, far from all. There's plenty that I don't like seeing lost, but scanners isn't one of them.

So where is the line drawn for you then?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #32 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So where is the line drawn for you then?

I think as a good guideline we should all be subject to the same security implementations. It's when only certain races and groups are subject to them that concerns me the most. It's much easier for Israeli's not to care about the intrusion of privacy when it's not going to impact them.
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post #33 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think as a good guideline we should all be subject to the same security implementations. It's when only certain races and groups are subject to them that concerns me the most. It's much easier for Israeli's not to care about the intrusion of privacy when it's not going to impact them.

Can you post where you are getting your information from about Israeli policies please. I would like to read them myself.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #34 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Can you post where you are getting your information from about Israeli policies please. I would like to read them myself.

Here's some-

"One fact he tried to impress upon me was the ease with which basic household items can be adapted into deadly devices. For example two bottles of liquid, one of them containing the hair dye hydrogen peroxide, can blow up a commercial airliner.


So why, I asked, are we still allowed to board airplanes at Ben-Gurion International Airport with bottles and tubes of liquid brought from home, while in Heathrow or JFK they confiscate our face cream and toothpaste?

"Oh, that's simple," he answered matter of factly. "We use racial profiling, they don't."

"It all happens quite openly. If you have a Hebrew name and 'look Jewish,' the security screening will be swift and painless. If your name is a bit less obviously Israeli, then there are some other key questions.

In my case, they ask how old I was when my family immigrated to Israel and where I served in the Israel Defense Forces, and after that it's easy sailing.

A friend with a similarly foreign name told me that with her, they just hear the Hebrew names of her children and she's okay.

In the case of Jewish tourists, it's usually enough to supply some reliable details on your aunt living in Haifa. We all know why these questions are being asked and we all bear it with good humor.Let's admit it, there is a general acceptance of the fact that non-Jewish, especially Muslim, passengers will get a working-over and have to arrive at the airport three hours earlier than the rest of us."
~ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...ogies-1.261075

Read this too- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/us/23tsa.html?_r=1
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #35 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Here's some-

"One fact he tried to impress upon me was the ease with which basic household items can be adapted into deadly devices. For example two bottles of liquid, one of them containing the hair dye hydrogen peroxide, can blow up a commercial airliner.


So why, I asked, are we still allowed to board airplanes at Ben-Gurion International Airport with bottles and tubes of liquid brought from home, while in Heathrow or JFK they confiscate our face cream and toothpaste?

"Oh, that's simple," he answered matter of factly. "We use racial profiling, they don't."

"It all happens quite openly. If you have a Hebrew name and 'look Jewish,' the security screening will be swift and painless. If your name is a bit less obviously Israeli, then there are some other key questions.

In my case, they ask how old I was when my family immigrated to Israel and where I served in the Israel Defense Forces, and after that it's easy sailing.

A friend with a similarly foreign name told me that with her, they just hear the Hebrew names of her children and she's okay.

In the case of Jewish tourists, it's usually enough to supply some reliable details on your aunt living in Haifa. We all know why these questions are being asked and we all bear it with good humor.Let's admit it, there is a general acceptance of the fact that non-Jewish, especially Muslim, passengers will get a working-over and have to arrive at the airport three hours earlier than the rest of us."
~ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...ogies-1.261075

Read this too- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/us/23tsa.html?_r=1

So with the Isreali system some get the full treatment and others "sail through" and with our system we all get the full treatment either at random or if we show possible signs of issues, like having a water bottle in our backpack or a multi-tool in our work bag. And this is ok with you?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #36 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So with the Isreali system some get the full treatment and others "sail through" and with our system we all get the full treatment either at random or if we show possible signs of issues, like having a water bottle in our backpack or a multi-tool in our work bag. And this is ok with you?


Are you ok with racial profiling? Would you rather the US took Israel's approach? Are you concerned at all about racial profiling?
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #37 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Are you ok with racial profiling? Would you rather the US took Israel's approach? Are you concerned at all about racial profiling?

First, I would like to see the security handed back to the airlines and make it their responsibility (along with full liability for any life or property damages).

Second, I don't think racial profiling is the answer and, from what I've read, Israeli security isn't just about racial profiling. What I would say is behavioral profiling is probably better. Undoubtedly there are probably behavioral characteristics that the trained eye could see and detect (including through simple questioning during check-in, etc.) that will smoke out 99% of the criminals intent on doing some harm and save the rest of us from stupid shit like porno scanner and grope-downs.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #38 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

First, I would like to see the security handed back to the airlines and make it their responsibility (along with full liability for any life or property damages).

Second, I don't think racial profiling is the answer and, from what I've read, Israeli security isn't just about racial profiling. What I would say is behavioral profiling is probably better. Undoubtedly there are probably behavioral characteristics that the trained eye could see and detect (including through simple questioning during check-in, etc.) that will smoke out 99% of the criminals intent on doing some harm and save the rest of us from stupid shit like porno scanner and grope-downs.

I can just see it. "Non-Muslim TransAir" makes billions!
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #39 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I can just see it. "Non-Muslim TransAir" makes billions!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #40 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


You've repeatedly argued that landlords etc should be able to decide who they let use their facilities. So it surely goes that in your thinking airlines would have the right to only fly say whites and certainly not let muslims fly with them.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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