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(More) Proof Airport Security is Bogus - Page 2

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You've repeatedly argued that landlords etc should be able to decide who they let use their facilities. So it surely goes that in your thinking airlines would have the right to only fly say whites and certainly not let muslims fly with them.

Yes, I do think they should be allowed. Of course you ass-u-me they would do what you've suggested.

P.S. This freedom for airlines would naturally be contingent on them giving up all* government protections and subsidizations. Freedom for them must also include freedom for other others to no longer be enslaved to help subsidize their industry and for others to more easily and freely compete with them.

*All means ALL. No more public airports. No more tax-payer funded security and air-traffic control. No more direct or indirect subsidies and (specially focused** tax breaks.)

**If they get tax breaks that any other business or industry gets that are not specific to their industry those could remain (or be eliminated for everyone.)

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post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, I do think they should be allowed. Of course you ass-u-me they would do what you've suggested.

P.S. This freedom for airlines would naturally be contingent on them giving up all* government protections and subsidizations. Freedom for them must also include freedom for other others to no longer be enslaved to help subsidize their industry and for others to more easily and freely compete with them.

*All means ALL. No more public airports. No more tax-payer funded security and air-traffic control. No more direct or indirect subsidies and (specially focused** tax breaks.)

**If they get tax breaks that any other business or industry gets that are not specific to their industry those could remain (or be eliminated for everyone.)

So if a current US airline makes say just 1% of it's revenue from muslims and they guarantee no muslims to their customers on board, hypothetically they might say get an increase of 10% in their non muslim revenue and save lots of money on security procedures to boot. Other airlines might think, oh we're struggling because of these muslims so lets do the same. That could mean that Muslims couldn't fly say within the US. I don't think that's very American.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #43 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You've repeatedly argued that landlords etc should be able to decide who they let use their facilities. So it surely goes that in your thinking airlines would have the right to only fly say whites and certainly not let muslims fly with them.

Seriously, someone should make a Muslim-friendly airline. It would make millions.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #44 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by hands sandon View Post

so if a current us airline makes say just 1% of it's revenue from muslims and they guarantee no muslims to their customers on board, hypothetically they might say get an increase of 10% in their non muslim revenue and save lots of money on security procedures to boot. Other airlines might think, oh we're struggling because of these muslims so lets do the same. That could mean that muslims couldn't fly say within the us. I don't think that's very american.

ok.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Seriously, someone should make a Muslim-friendly airline. It would make millions.

Bingo.

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post #46 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So if a current US airline makes say just 1% of it's revenue from muslims and they guarantee no muslims to their customers on board, hypothetically they might say get an increase of 10% in their non muslim revenue and save lots of money on security procedures to boot. Other airlines might think, oh we're struggling because of these muslims so lets do the same. That could mean that Muslims couldn't fly say within the US. I don't think that's very American.

It would not work like that - in reality, American Muslims are the least radical in the world and the most progressive.

They are the last group to actually be radical so one could not realistically target Muslims on religion. You would have to do it on race - ie Yemenis or Afghanis or whatever the choice is at any given time.

And that would not be legal.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Seriously, someone should make a Muslim-friendly airline. It would make millions.

There are about 6 million muslims in the US out of a population of over 300 million, so that's about 2%. the result would be to kill off there jobs. How many employers are going to employ people who need to fly when they have far fewer flights they can catch. The problems would be huge.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #48 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Bingo.

I seriously think that this sort of enterprise would be the answer to the current 'image problems' of Islam and it is a problem in itself why no Muslims do it but that is a deeper issue.

In Berlin for example, mosques are responding to the economic crisis by growing organic food and selling it on the premises quite cheaply.

There is nothing 'Islamic' about it as such but it integrates into the community and it is known that it is Muslims who are doing it so the non-Muslim customers (hopefully) go there and realize they aren't going to get their heads chopped off.

This is really the answer to the issue actually - though I am digressing, apologies - just open these kind of businesses. Not just for Muslims but BY Muslims and do it better or, at least, just as well.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It would not work like that - in reality, American Muslims are the least radical in the world and the most progressive.

They are the last group to actually be radical so one could not realistically target Muslims on religion. You would have to do it on race - ie Yemenis or Afghanis or whatever the choice is at any given time.

And that would not be legal.

If MJ got his way then airlines certainly could stop people flying who are Muslim. Particulary US national flights could limit them. If the public believes there's a threat that all they need to ban muslims for profit.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #50 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There are about 6 million muslims in the US out of a population of over 300 million, so that's about 2%. the result would be to kill off there jobs. How many employers are going to employ people who need to fly when they have far fewer flights they can catch. The problems would be huge.

That's just the US. Worldwide it could work. Especially if it were a better product.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There are about 6 million muslims in the US out of a population of over 300 million, so that's about 2%. the result would be to kill off there jobs. How many employers are going to employ people who need to fly when they have far fewer flights they can catch. The problems would be huge.

See the problems you encounter when you endeavor to centrally plan the whole economy.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If MJ got his way then airlines certainly could stop people flying who are Muslim. Particulary US national flights could limit them. If the public believes there's a threat that all they need to ban muslims for profit.

And someone would also be free to start a Muslim-only airline also. You seem to persistently see only the negative possibilities of freedom while completely ignoring the positive probabilities of it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This is really the answer to the issue actually - though I am digressing, apologies - just open these kind of businesses. Not just for Muslims but BY Muslims and do it better or, at least, just as well.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Although I, personally, don't care about the religion or ethnicity of those who own and operate the businesses I patronize. I can't recall ever once thinking, asking or concerning myself with it. Additionally I work with quite a number of people who are known to be Muslim and all is fine. I rarely worry any of them are going to bomb the building I work in. But...I do worry that when I go to an airport either me, my wife or daughters will be required to be photographed naked or have our genitals fondled by an employee of the government I liver under. So that's all good.

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post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

See the problems you encounter when you endeavor to centrally plan the whole economy.

Now that comment deserves a and a Palin WTF!

Palin's WTF moments- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...8c11Y3Bb-1oD8Q
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Now that comment deserves a and a Palin WTF!

Well, when you decide that you need to start dictating who in a country can do what, when and where you've started to engage in central planning (to one degree or another.) And these dictates start having side-effects all over the place. And now you start having to add more dictates to counter these side-effects. You start trying to balance and consider all kinds of special interests. You start imagining there are all kinds of "rights" being violated.

I suggest we start with freedom and property rights and limit the intrusion into these as absolutely little as possible. Ultimately this will lead to the greatest benefit for the greatest number.

Your concerns about Muslims not being able to fly different places are based purely on a dystopian imagining of how the world would unfold under this freedom. But it has no real basis in logic or reason. Its is quite likely that more people (not less)...regardless of race or religion...would have more options for safe, fast and inexpensive transport (be it by plane or other means) under an atmosphere of greater freedom.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #56 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, when you decide that you need to start dictating who in a country can do what, when and where you've started to engage in central planning (to one degree or another.) And these dictates start having side-effects all over the place. And now you start having to add more dictates to counter these side-effects. You start trying to balance and consider all kinds of special interests. You start imagining there are all kinds of "rights" being violated.

I suggest we start with freedom and property rights and limit the intrusion into these as absolutely little as possible. Ultimately this will lead to the greatest benefit for the greatest number.

Your concerns about Muslims not being able to fly different places are based purely on a dystopian imagining of how the world would unfold under this freedom. But it has no real basis in logic or reason. Its is quite likely that more people (not less)...regardless of race or religion...would have more options for safe, fast and inexpensive transport (be it by plane or other means) under an atmosphere of greater freedom.

It also assumes and pays into the underlying assumption that ALL Muslims are terrorists. Otherwise why profile them?

How many Muslims would have to be radical to make it worthwhile? 20%? 40?

How many actually ARE radical to the extent they would carry out a bombing on an aircraft?

I would suggest it is more or less the same figure, percentage wise as - say - Christians or other established terror groups.

Put another way: if the percentage of Muslims who would plan to carry out a terror attack is less than 1% then is profiling necessary?

Hands figure was 6 Million Muslims in US. 1% is 60,000.

Are there even that many suicide jihadis in the entire world? I think not.

How many in the US? I would say in the low hundreds at a very, very, very high and generous estimate.

So call it 0.1% - 6000? Nah. 0.01%? 600? Unlikely.

But for 0.01% or lower then profiling is necessary?

It doesn't make sense - not does the rest of the measures actually - not unless you assume ALL Muslims are potential terrorists....oh...wait....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, when you decide that you need to start dictating who in a country can do what, when and where you've started to engage in central planning (to one degree or another.) And these dictates start having side-effects all over the place. And now you start having to add more dictates to counter these side-effects. You start trying to balance and consider all kinds of special interests. You start imagining there are all kinds of "rights" being violated.

I suggest we start with freedom and property rights and limit the intrusion into these as absolutely little as possible. Ultimately this will lead to the greatest benefit for the greatest number.

Your concerns about Muslims not being able to fly different places are based purely on a dystopian imagining of how the world would unfold under this freedom. But it has no real basis in logic or reason. Its is quite likely that more people (not less)...regardless of race or religion...would have more options for safe, fast and inexpensive transport (be it by plane or other means) under an atmosphere of greater freedom.

That first paragraph was quite something! It applies to the control you'd give businesses perfectly and is the complete opposite of government policy regarding who can fly.

You can be sure that there'd be a backlash to any US airline that banned muslims, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't increase there passengers, especially if a muslim brought down another airliner or two.

The thought of living in a world where "no muslims allowed" signs all over the place does not appeal to me and whilst that may well not appeal to you either, that could very likely be the result of your laws.

I would wonder about passenger safety in your world too given how airlines would be even freer to charge low wages, have longer working hours, inexperienced pilots etc. Not my kind of world I assure you.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That first paragraph was quite something! It applies to the control you'd give businesses perfectly and is the complete opposite of government policy regarding who can fly.

But a business should have control over their own property and how it is used. But then they also get to suffer the consequences of that. As a business owner you chose to not serve some segment of the population? You lose money you can make. Your argument seems to expect business people to be both greedy and not greedy at the same time. \


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The thought of living in a world where "no muslims allowed" signs all over the place does not appeal to me and whilst that may well not appeal to you either, that could very likely be the result of your laws.

It doesn't' appeal to me either. The difference is you think this is highly probable and I think it is highly improbable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I would wonder about passenger safety in your world too given how airlines would be even freer to charge low wages, have longer working hours, inexperienced pilots etc. Not my kind of world I assure you.

Yes, you're right to wonder about safety. And you and everyone else would be free to wonder about it also. And businesses like airlines would have to find ways to overcome that concern and wonder...like proving their safety again and again. Because, contrary to the typical anti-capitalist mentality...businesses don't typically have successful business models that involve harming, injuring or killing their customers.

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post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But a business should have control over their own property and how it is used. But then they also get to suffer the consequences of that. As a business owner you chose to not serve some segment of the population? You lose money you can make. Your argument seems to expect business people to be both greedy and not greedy at the same time. \




It doesn't' appeal to me either. The difference is you think this is highly probable and I think it is highly improbable.




Yes, you're right to wonder about safety. And you and everyone else would be free to wonder about it also. And businesses like airlines would have to find ways to overcome that concern and wonder...like proving their safety again and again. Because, contrary to the typical anti-capitalist mentality...businesses don't typically have successful business models that involve harming, injuring or killing their customers.

That just isn't the case and not only that but you would also take away funding for people to sue companies that had harmed them. These companies have fat wallets already but in your world they would be king.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #60 of 73
I'd certainly be happy to work for and fly on "Atheist Airways".
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That just isn't the case...

What "just isn't the case?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

and not only that but you would also take away funding for people to sue companies that had harmed them.

WTF? What are you talking about? Who's funding am I taking away?

You'll note that part of what I suggested had the airlines starting to pay for all of their own stuff and not pawning those expenses off on the taxpayers, so their walletsmight be less full than you imagine.

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post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I'd certainly be happy to work for and fly on "Atheist Airways".

Yes. See, there you go. Then you wouldn't need to worry about the guy sitting next to you prosthelytizing to you because you all share the same faith.

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post #63 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. See, there you go. Then you wouldn't need to worry about the guy sitting next to you prosthelytizing to you because you all share the same faith.

They could show Dawkins on continual loop on the in-flight movie and have instructions on the safety cards:

"If the plane goes down - NO PRAYING - NO RECANTING - NO LAST MINUTE CONVERSIONS"

You could combine with the racist profiling too.....many atheists, like Sam Harris, are Islamophobes/borderline racists so there could be some good crossover.

I just worry in case someone like Harris straps on a bomb-belt, takes over the cockpit and heads for Mecca shouting "God is not Great!"
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

They could show Dawkins on continual loop on the in-flight movie and have instructions on the safety cards:

"If the plane goes down - NO PRAYING - NO RECANTING - NO LAST MINUTE CONVERSIONS"

You could combine with the racist profiling too.....many atheists, like Sam Harris, are Islamophobes/borderline racists so there could be some good crossover.

I just worry in case someone like Harris straps on a bomb-belt, takes over the cockpit and heads for Mecca shouting "God is not Great!"

I demand that you come to my office right now and clean the Mountain Dew off the monitor!

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post #65 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I demand that you come to my office right now and clean the Mountain Dew off the monitor!



They might not let me on the plane!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What "just isn't the case?"




WTF? What are you talking about? Who's funding am I taking away?

You'll note that part of what I suggested had the airlines starting to pay for all of their own stuff and not pawning those expenses off on the taxpayers, so their walletsmight be less full than you imagine.

Drug companies harm their customers all the time. Personally i think the US carmakers do too. Pollution has been causing a staggering number of illnesses from a multitude of industries many of them their very own customers. Tobacco companies and even alcohol companies know just how much damage their products cause and yet aim their advertising at the young.

Mountaintop removal causes severe pollution and irrevocabley destroys the country the customers live in.

Businesses will try to make money, no matter what. Many of them spend a lot of money telling you how wonderfull they are, like tge health insurance companies, but they're in it for a buck and without government regulations and the ability to be able to afford to sue them, many more people would get screwed by them.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #67 of 73
I am reading all of this with great interest and wondering, how does one racially profile a Muslim? Muslim is not a race, it is a religious choice, like christian. Muslim could mean white man named George Jones or black man named Franklin Tidwell or brown man named Muhammad Absar. You cannot racially profile a Muslim. It is not possible. I am surprised that Segovius has not jumped on this point, unless I missed it... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #68 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I am reading all of this with great interest and wondering, how does one racially profile a Muslim? Muslim is not a race, it is a religious choice, like christian. Muslim could mean white man named George Jones or black man named Franklin Tidwell or brown man named Muhammad Absar. You cannot racially profile a Muslim. It is not possible. I am surprised that Segovius has not jumped on this point, unless I missed it... \

I kind of did - I was taking it easy though. Trying to be more pacifique

That was what I meant above by saying it wouldn't work and you would have to target specific nations or Muslims of a certain ethnicity.

What I think would work would be to have more Muslims on the staff of immigration and just get them to talk to any Muslim they find suspicious. You could even have a higher level of academically trained Muslims to talk to people if necessary.

It says your religion in your passport...just get a Muslim on staff to say "Salam Alaykum' when they go through and talk to them. if they're cool it's a normal thing to do, if they're up to no good they'll set off subtle alarms that Muslims are perhaps more attuned to than people with no experience of Islam perhaps.

You don't even have to do it that way - you could have an Imam or someone at the embassy interviewing Muslims when they apply for visas. If they are not radicals they'd love it....and if they were they'd be found out.

I don't know how it is as I haven't been to the States for a while but maybe they do it, I don't know.

I do know that one way to marginalize the fanatics is to deprive them of the ability to play the 'us and them' angle which is a major force for radicalizing so it couldn't hurt.

That way would avoid the profiling anyway.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Drug companies harm their customers all the time.

Intentionally? Are the drug companies sitting around finding new and clever ways to harm their customers OR...is it possible that the harm comes about as an unintended and unfortunate consequence of trying to solve an important medical problem?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Personally i think the US carmakers do too.

Intentionally? Are the car companies sitting around finding new and clever ways to harm their customers OR...is it possible that the harm comes about as an unintended and unfortunate consequence of trying to solve an important problem?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Tobacco companies and even alcohol companies know just how much damage their products cause and yet aim their advertising at the young.

Aren't these companies merely trying to fulfill and meet a desire for consumers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Mountaintop removal causes severe pollution and irrevocabley destroys the country the customers live in.

You assume that the benefits that come from this are less than the costs.

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post #70 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Intentionally? Are the drug companies sitting around finding new and clever ways to harm their customers OR...is it possible that the harm comes about as an unintended and unfortunate consequence of trying to solve an important medical problem?

In some cases I believe they are.

If they can cause Symptom A and sell Product B to 'cure' it of course they would. They are corrupt. You seem to think they have consciences or something.

So yes...I do believe this personally. I think more often though they just don't care whether something harms or not. They just want the money.

Quote:
Intentionally? Are the car companies sitting around finding new and clever ways to harm their customers OR...is it possible that the harm comes about as an unintended and unfortunate consequence of trying to solve an important problem?

In some way - not as obvious as above - I actually think some departments ARE sitting around thinking of ways to harm their customers.

They don't call it that and - let's be charitable - perhaps they don't even realize it but the fact is that every car looks the same. All the colours are limited.

Think about that for a minute.

When I was a kind you could have yellow, blue, red, whatever. Now you get some shade of silver and fuck you if you don't like it. And they all look the same.

Yet people buy them and don't notice.....why?

Because these car companies have huge departments dedicated to brainwashing people it's all right and dumbing down what little discrimination or free will they have left.

That my friend is HARM.

Quote:
Aren't these companies merely trying to fulfill and meet a desire for consumers?

Certainly not. Far, far from it.

Long ago customer expectation rose and rose and rose.

The Companies had to rise their game in response - in fact raise and raise and raise.

And some did.

But then came a new breed: The Greedy Fucking Bastards.

And The Greedy Fucking Bastards didn't want to raise their game - to be fair they weren't capable of it but the real reason was that if they could sell low class SHIT then they would make more profit. Massively more - because the product was cookie-cutter or, in some cases - worthless.

But there was a problem: Mr Consumer had raised his game. He was intelligent and discriminating. He would spot a shit product a mile off.

Something had to be done.

So they forgot about the products and concentrated on making Mr Consumer stupid.

In fact some even ended up believing that these companies were fulfilling and meeting the desires of consumers.

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You assume that the benefits that come from this are less than the costs.

Benefits.

Right.

You got me there.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #71 of 73
*sigh*

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #72 of 73
The heavy marketing of suv's has taken the US from having the safest roads in the world to being about ninth on the list. They also make it less likely people will buy smaller cars because they're scared that they'll get squashed to death by one of the assholes that drives them (some people genuinely need them sometimes granted).

How good a conscience can Mr McDonald's have had. Look at how so much food is designed not for nourishment but because it's cheap and profitable to make. Look at the steroids and crap fed to cows. The worlds full of situations where people including customers are damaged and effectively killed to make money.

I wonder how much banks care about their customers. About 6 months ago I accidentally went over my account limit by £1 for about 4 days and the bank charged me £101. I'm not kidding, it was outrageous. They make billions in profits from that each year. You have to wonder about credit card companies too. Do they really have their customers best interests at heart or do they have the high interest they can charge at heart? They're scammers, that's the reality. Businesses are full of people with both good and bad intentions and the customers are the neccessary fuel that they consume and all too often they only want that power.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #73 of 73
And yet...billions of people use and consume the products and services provided by these companies every day...year after year...and survive and thrive. Go figure.

If only this same incisive analysis was pointed toward something like the number of deaths caused by the TSA as a result of their oppressive security measures pushing more people to take the far less safe mode of automobile transportation.

Here's a great essay outlining what some of these greedy bastards have done:

Quote:
What is ironic is that kerosene lamps were a luxury of the rich in the 19th century, before John D. Rockefeller came along. At the high price of kerosene at that time, an ordinary working man could not afford to stay up at night, burning this expensive fuel for hours at a time.

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Before he came along, gasoline was considered a useless by-product that petroleum refineries often simply dumped into the nearest river. But Rockefeller decided to use it as a fuel in the refining process, which made it valuable, even before automobiles came along.

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Before Rockefeller's innovations reduced the price of kerosene to a fraction of what it had once been, there wasn't a lot for poor people to do when nightfall came, other than go to bed. But the advent of cheap kerosene added hours of light and activity to each day for people with low or moderate incomes.

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Here again, automobiles and electric lights were truly luxuries of the rich when they began. Only after ways were developed to cut their costs drastically were such things brought within the reach of ordinary Americans.

Henry Ford's mass production methods cut in half the cost of producing the famous Model T Ford in just five years. People who had once lived their entire lives within a narrow radius of a relatively few miles could now go see places they never knew about before. The automobile expanded their horizons.

People today who complain about the automobile's pollution have no idea how much more pollution there was before the automobile came along. In New York City, for example, the 40,000 horses that were the backbone of the city's transportation, before the automobile, produced 400 tons of manure per working day, along with 20,000 gallons of urine.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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