or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included - Page 4

post #121 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?

Who puts them in the SAME category of PC? The statistics shown include all sorts of form factors and categories of PC's which all have different limitations of function.

I put them under different categories of PC.....and I think alot of others would agree.
post #122 of 189
Person A: "I need a PC"

Person B:"Get an iPad!"

Person A: "Cool!"

Buys iPad, takes it home.

"Connect to what? F*** me"
post #123 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.

If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.

So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?
post #124 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

After all the crap you needed to vent, this is the first point you've made that approaches,

1. Discussion

2. Relevancy.

Good point. It can be activated in the store. What happens when it's not? Like every single online purchase? Gift?

What happens then when it crashes/locks up? Back to the Apple store?

You're definitely right that it never needs to be updated. Of course, that was no where remotely near my point. My point was how the software can be updated. As far I know, there exists no PC on the market that requires ANOTHER PC for basic software updates. That would seem to stand out as...significant.

I still don't see why how a computer is setup or updates actually effects what the device actually does. What defines a device is what it does NOT how it is setup or updated.
post #125 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

Who puts them in the SAME category of PC? The statistics shown include all sorts of form factors and categories of PC's which all have different limitations of function.

I put them under different categories of PC.....and I think alot of others would agree.

Of course, different categories is a great idea. But we need to see iPod touch in the overall PC sales numbers before I can take seriously the inclusion of iPad.
post #126 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Of course, different categories is a great idea. But we need to see iPod touch in the overall PC sales numbers before I can take seriously the inclusion of iPad.

Along with a SHITLOAD of other devices by many different manufacturers.

I agree.
post #127 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Quit your patronizing crap. I understood the marketing position Apple took with the iPad before they even unveiled it. Marketing is what I do for a living.

The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.

My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it.

My main gripe is with people ignoring that glaring point, for some odd reason. It can't be utterly discounted, yet some people think it can. That is simply arrogance, and ignorance.

Yet, I'd be happy to concede that the iPad should be included with PC numbers if the iPod touch is included as well. At least then it makes "sense"


I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #128 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?

Obviously you know that you said, "Set To Boot"

In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.
post #129 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

Like a laptop or netbook?

Right, that's what my parents did. Between their phone and ipads, they quite literally have no use for any other personal computing device - beyond the aforementioned tethering.

But what does that say? When a smartphone and ipad have taken responsibility for nearly every single function that their previous personal computers took care of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The same posters still cant see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.

End of the day it is corporate marketing that is going to define the term "pc".

This is just another way of looking at the iPad to allow Apple to garner a foothold in the minds of future buyers.

chuckle
post #130 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

Along with a SHITLOAD of other devices by many different manufacturers.

I agree.

I agree, it's the picking and choosing and excluding that pisses me off about the numbers.
post #131 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The same posters still cant see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.

Or better yet, to acknowledge that these classifications are meaningless.
Please don't be insane.
Reply
Please don't be insane.
Reply
post #132 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.

Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.

It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.

Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?
post #133 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...

Oh get over it. Sometimes people disagree. I think you're wrong. You're going to have to live with it. And as far as the post you quoted, it was not directed at you as you well know, it was directed at the most arrogant and uppity member of this site who talks down to anyone and everyone.
post #134 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.

It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.

Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?

This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.
post #135 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.

If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.

But the device would be the same, how strange it magically changes.
post #136 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Obviously you know that you said, "Set To Boot"

In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.

Well, what if the requirement in iOS is simply a switch set in the firmware? Then would you classify the iPad as a personal computer, if it is simply "set to require activation"?
post #137 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Person A: "I need a PC"

Person B:"Get an iPad!"

Person A: "Cool!"

Buys iPad, takes it home.

"Connect to what? F*** me"

Person A: "I need a PC"

Person B: "Get a Mac"

Person A: "Cool"

Buys Mac, takes it home. Needs to update iTunes to use his new iPhone, but does not have Internet, or electricity as he lives in a tent.

"Connect to electricity and internet? F*** me"

Does the lack of something to activate it make the device not a PC?
post #138 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated. ...

I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.
post #139 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

So the iPad can be called a PC if Apple issues an iOS update this year that doesn't require it to be tethered to a computer for initial activation and updates? If this update was installed on the original iPad, is it suddenly a PC?

The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.

+++ Wish I'd said that.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #140 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.

You still trying to use one fact about the setup / update of a device to define its class of device.

What defines a device is its use, NOT how it is setup / updated.

A car is still a car even with no petrol in it, locked in a garage, with no wheels.
post #141 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?

You chose to ignore the first part of my post. Let me give you another example. Would you consider the PS3 a PC? Up until few months ago you could install Linux on it. You can even hack it and still do it. Is it a PC? or is it a game console?!

The term PC "personal computer" is general term. This is why the terms desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet.. etc are used with with "PC".
post #142 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

Does the lack of something to activate it make the device not a PC?

Complete fallacy.

You don't NEED the Internet to use a Mac or PC. Come on.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #143 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.

Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.
post #144 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

You still trying to use one fact about the setup / update of a device to define its class of device.

What defines a device is its use, NOT how it is setup / updated.

A car is still a car even with no petrol in it, locked in a garage, with no wheels.

Can you program your iPad to do anything or just buy Apps?
post #145 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLiver View Post

Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.

I didn't say that and the Calculator is not a subcategory of a personal computer "PC". The main functional distinction of a PC is being multifunction and general-purpose.
post #146 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post


I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.

LOL!

Good one, and this was the point I was trying to make as well!

Personal Computing devices have taken on many form factors and functions over the last 40 years.
post #147 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated.

I have worked for IBM since I was 19, I remember when I mainframe system along with disk and tape devices would take up an entire building. Now in that same space we can house 20 times the devices. I remember the days when humans mounted taps rather then robots.

So to have a 1980's take on what a personal computers should or shouldn't be is very closed minded.

If someone uses even an iPhone or Android or any smartphone for that matter several hours a day its hard to say that isn't a personal computing devices for that person.

Is someone uses and iPad or MBP several hours a day or daily then that is simply the personal computer device that person has picked to suit their needs.

I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.

Ha!

Good points.

AIR, the term "Personal Computer" was first popularized by Apple in 1978 to differentiate the Apple ][ from the many microcomputer offerings that were, largely, in kit form and were assembled and built by hobbists.

Later, in 1981, IBM subsumed the term with the announcement of the IBM/pc.

... It's all PV (Pink Vanilla) to me
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #148 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.

Touché.

One could argue that these devices have disconnected us in ways that are bad for society as a whole. That these are actually impersonal computers.
Texting while walking while not paying attention
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.

I cant recall the last time I didnt agree with some point extremeskater was making.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #149 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

...... The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.
My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it. .....

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so you'll forgive me if what I say has already been said. IMHO, the question of whether or not an iPad can be considered a "traditional PC" can be answered by asking ourselves two important questions. One, does the purchase of an iPad replace what would have been the purchase of a traditional computer? ... Two, does the owner of an iPad use it to do the "majority" of the things that they used to do on a PC.

If the answer to both of those questions is yes .... and I think that in the majority of cases that would be the case ... then I don't see how it cannot be included in the "PC" category. After all, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck .....

The only problem that I see is that different people want to categorize it in the category that best supports their opinion of any particular subject ..... total sales, for instance.

At the end of the day you can bet that Steve Jobs and Steve Ballmer could not care less what category it falls in ..... only how many units are being sold. ....
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #150 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Well based on specs my smartphone kicks ass compared to my first personal computer which was 8mhz with a 40meg harddrive. I remember when I started gaming (if you could all it that back then) the big upgrade was to go from 1meg to 2megs of video memory.

If products are even going to be sorted anymore then we need to at least come up with modern day catagories. PC is just too much of a general term these days. Decades ago when one or two devices fell into that catagory it was fine but that isn't the case anymore.

There isn't anyone today that can truly say on some level the smartphones most of us here carry are not on some level our personal computers.

EXACTLY!

I made those exact points in this thread, although for a bit, in a rather inhospitable tone, which may/may not have skewed the actual point I was trying to make.

And I agree that personal computing devices are becoming a largely diverse lineup of devices, and I don't think that trend is stopping anytime soon.
post #151 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Well some believe the world is going to end in 2012 you and I in agreement may just be the start of that chain of events.

Very likely. I wonder what the Mayan calendar has to say about this date.
post #152 of 189
While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.

In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.

They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.
post #153 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.

In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.

They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.

I think you broke the code.

The Personal Computer is dead! Long live the Personal Computer!

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #154 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It's not arbitrary. To me, the fact of having to sync changes my perception of the device the whole time I'm using it. When I create a file I'm thinking about the next sync. When I see the battery go down I'm thinking about the next sync. When I create a bookmark I'm thinking about the next sync. Sync is not an isolated thing that happens when I plug in, it is always there, effecting how I use it.

It's only a matter of time. I upgraded to iOS4.2 over WiFi. I download apps directly to iPad or iPod Touch ALL the time.
Most of you naysayers are missing the point about syncing. You sync because you cannot reliably run a mobile device with content you keep changing, without having the failsafe of at least ONE consolidated back-up terminal. And that is the device you sync to. Delete an app on the iPad, just sync and restore. Bought songs or apps straight into iPad? You're dumb if you don't sync to back them up to your consolidated back-up device. How else can Apple make it easy for you to use your apps and media on up to 5 devices per Store account?
Some of you have eyes, but you just don't see. Some have a brain, but don't seem to think much.
post #155 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Why couldn't Apple do this starting today -- why wait for iPad3 or even iPad2?


The reinstall drive already exists,
The AirPort Express already exists.
MobileMe already exists.
iTunes Music Store and App store already know everything you've bought from them.
The North Carolina Data Center already exists.

The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.

Why do you need the Airport express at all? Not sure why you need the reinstall drive either but I guess it's nice to have.

If you wanted to force them to buy an Apple router I would make the base a iOS based TimeCapsule and allow it to store media for all iDevices including the aTV for those times the network is down and you can't see the NC data center.

$299 for an iOS based TimeCapsule to replace the host computer. Maybe buy the iHome company to get the rights to that name and rename it the iHome.
post #156 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLiver View Post

It's a lttle early for April fools.
If an iPad is considered a computer then so should an iPod Touch and a Sony Dash.
And netbooks can play flash and don't need to be synced to a mother computer because they ARE a computer.

My digital watch is a computer, hence a PC.

My clipboard with built-in calculator is a tablet PC.

My tennis shoes are "mobile devices". And since almost everybody wears 2 shoes, shoe sales and market share should be counted twice.
post #157 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...

Once again... I was gonna state the exact same thing. Marketing "pros"... please spare me!
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
Reply
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
Reply
post #158 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

I didn't say that and the Calculator is not a subcategory of a personal computer "PC". The main functional distinction of a PC is being multifunction and general-purpose.

Well all 3 "compute" and are all highly "personal" so therefore ........
post #159 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

Why couldn't Apple do this starting today -- why wait for iPad3 or even iPad2?


The reinstall drive already exists,
The AirPort Express already exists.
MobileMe already exists.
iTunes Music Store and App store already know everything you've bought from them.
The North Carolina Data Center already exists.

The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Why do you need the Airport express at all? Not sure why you need the reinstall drive either but I guess it's nice to have.

If you wanted to force them to buy an Apple router I would make the base a iOS based TimeCapsule and allow it to store media for all iDevices including the aTV for those times the network is down and you can't see the NC data center.

$299 for an iOS based TimeCapsule to replace the host computer. Maybe buy the iHome company to get the rights to that name and rename it the iHome.

Ahh... I wasn't going to force them to buy anything. I was thinking that Apple could:

-- combine the Airport Express within the iPad charger as part of the iPad package
-- combine MobileMe (some minimum) as part of the iPad package

Depending on how aggressive Apple wanted to beL

They could offer only 1 SKU -- the iPod Package at the Current Price

or

A second SKU -- an iPad only at a reduced price (say $50 less).


You need the reinstall drive if the iPad bricks and you don't have convenient access to another computer.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #160 of 189
Well this has been an entertaining thread.
While everyone is arguing as to what constitutes a tree, apple has planted a forest.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPad
  • Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included