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Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included - Page 2

post #41 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Actually no I'd not agree. None of that is relevant. You need to be able to turn it on and use it, without owning a box that's running windows xxxx or Mac OS X.

Under what definition has that ever been a factor beside the one you've drummed up for yourself?
post #42 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I doubt Apple care what columnists categorize their products as other than mind blowingly successful.

This!!!!
post #43 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

Explain to me how a netbook or laptop is a personal computer (which by actual definition is a programmable machine), and an iPad is not

Neither netbook nor laptop needs a host.
An iPad is like the Alien that need a host to feed on in order to come alive.

You don't need 21,000 + posts to figure this one out.
post #44 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

Under what definition has that ever been a factor beside the one you've drummed up for yourself?

Wtf are you talking about? When have you ever purchased a PC (whatever that means) and been told at the store, "Make sure you already own one of these, so you can turn it on"

????

Furthermore, it's not a definition, but it's certainly a BARRIER, to which you offer no response.
post #45 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLiver View Post

Thank you. Only those who can't think, are strictly voyeurs with an occasional limited tinkering on specially hindered Apps would think a Mac-dependent iPad is a computer.

This is why I can get worked up over this.

This is an example of a totally ludicrous and false definition of what a computer is.

I mean it literally is incorrect in every way.

That ipad is more capable than the majority of computers to have ever been in existence.
post #46 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Emphasis mine.

"While they do not appeal to first-time buyers or low-income households, they are proving extremely popular as additional computing devices."

When Apple ships the iPad with an iOS reinstall drive:



And a combined Charger/Airport Express:




and comes with MobileMe Backup/Sync/Mobile Extensions tied into iTunes stores


Then the iPad will be a superior solution to first-time buyers and the iPad will be the Apple of the masses.


I think you just mapped out iPad 3 or 4. I can also see a situation on later iPads whereby you get a free membership to sign up for mobileme and start using it immediately, no Mac or PC required. This would enable someone buying an iPad to set it up and start using it immediately in the wild, say in an airport or at an Apple Store. Syncing to iTunes would then become an option obviously needed for those with TBs of music and photos!
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #47 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

And yet that is totally inapplicable to what a PC actually is.

No, that's pretty much the point. A "PC" is an amalgam of plastic, metal, and glass if you can't use it. And you can't use an iPad without another computer. No other "computer" ever made has been like that.

Maybe the DuoDock if you count the dock as a "computer".

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #48 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

This is why I can get worked up over this.

This is an example of a totally ludicrous and false definition of what a computer is.

I mean it literally is incorrect in every way.

That ipad is more capable than the majority of computers to have ever been in existence.

An iPad is a PC accessory- end of story.
post #49 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im betting on them making a separate category for this new device type.

"IDC's Worldwide Quarterly Media Tablet and eReader Tracker Makes Its Debut"

http://www.idc.com/about/viewpressre...d=prUS22660011

You win!
post #50 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Calm yourself down. Why on earth you need to act like this such a big deal, I can't even begin to imagine.

As far as I'm concerned, until the iPad and iPod touch do not rely on a PC for activation, backup, etc. it's still an accessory device. It's not a host machine, despite being fully capable of replacing some people's needs for a host machine.



I think that your ideas about a "host machine" are interesting. But I don't think that relying on a host disqualifies any device from being a personal computer.

For example, right now I am tethered to a host computer using hunks of copper wire in order to get the words from my fingertips onto the screen in their posted format. Without the connected host, there ain't no way to accomplish my computing task, that being to see these words on the AI Forum webpage.

But given that I am using a quad-core machine with gigs of ram and terrabytes of connected storage, I doubt that the necessity of my using a host machine disqualifies my local device from being a personal computer.

This tether thing is, IMO, a false criteria for defining a PC.
post #51 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

This is why I can get worked up over this.

This is an example of a totally ludicrous and false definition of what a computer is.

I mean it literally is incorrect in every way.

That ipad is more capable than the majority of computers to have ever been in existence.

k, now I'm definitely done. You're not worth talking to.
post #52 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Wtf are you talking about? When have you ever purchased a PC (whatever that means) and been told at the store, "Make sure you already own one of these, so you can turn it on"

????

Gosh, because I know every time the computer has evolved it grows into a brand new category?

How many times could you have said something like that about a computers characteristics over the course of the last 40 years?

You are drawing arbitrary lines is what I'm saying. You could have had 1000 names for a computer if you wanted a new category every time something was different.
post #53 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

k, now I'm definitely done. You're not worth talking to.

Really? You take all the computers from the very start, every model ever produced, and you think that the Ipads capabilities would NOT be in the top half?

If it wasn't it would be close.
post #54 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

"IDC's Worldwide Quarterly Media Tablet and eReader Tracker Makes Its Debut"

http://www.idc.com/about/viewpressre...d=prUS22660011

You win!

Apple at 80-90% isn't too shabby in the catagory that will soon be the largest.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #55 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

Really? You take all the computers from the very start, every model ever produced, and you think that the Ipads capabilities would NOT be in the top half?

If it wasn't it would be close.

Not wanting to get between you two, but my iPad would blow away every consumer computer made prior to about ten years ago- maybe even 5? But remember the caveat though that they can't yet stand alone. But in the end don't worry, categories and titles matter not, just sales Apple will create new categories as they always have done, who wants to be in the same one as a crappy PC anyway?

p.s. I see AAPL back on track ... Phew!
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #56 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Actually no I'd not agree. None of that is relevant. You need to be able to turn it on and use it, without owning a box that's running windows xxxx or Mac OS X.

Says who?? I haven't seen anywhere that that is a pre-requisite to be considered a computer either.. *technically* if it has a Display, a CPU, RAM and runs an OS and apps, it is by definition a *computer.*

Still I would not lump an iPad in with a traditional PC.
post #57 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichyS View Post

And just because an iPad benefits from an occasional linking to a 'mother' computer does not make its use or capabilities any less. My work laptop needs to be connected to my work servers more often than my iPad needs hooking up to iTunes. Does that make it 'not a proper computer'?



Truly excellent point. You said it better than I did up above: this whole "no connections to the outside world" thing makes no sense to me as a disqualification for being a personal computer.

Many personal computers are used in a way that they NEED a host to connect to, especially with today's cloud computing. I'll even go out on a limb and claim that most personal computers are used in a way that requires routine tethering to a mother ship in order to operate as the user expects. Indeed, if most personal computers were not not semi-permanently "connected" or "tethered" or "logged in" to the "host", to the "mother ship", to the "full fledged computer", then the user would consider them little better than a boat anchor.
post #58 of 189
Another interesting PC question: are there any PCs on the market that have to be plugged into another PC to receive software updates?
post #59 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I think you just mapped out iPad 3 or 4. I can also see a situation on later iPads whereby you get a free membership to sign up for mobileme and start using it immediately, no Mac or PC required. This would enable someone buying an iPad to set it up and start using it immediately in the wild, say in an airport or at an Apple Store. Syncing to iTunes would then become an option obviously needed for those with TBs of music and photos!

Why couldn't Apple do this starting today -- why wait for iPad3 or even iPad2?


The reinstall drive already exists,
The AirPort Express already exists.
MobileMe already exists.
iTunes Music Store and App store already know everything you've bought from them.
The North Carolina Data Center already exists.

The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #60 of 189
Bottom line for including them in the sales figures is this: If they didn't buy the iPad, what would they have bought? In most cases the answer is a netbook/budget laptop, so the iPad does belong in this category. In 5 years this won't even be an argument.
post #61 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Another interesting PC question: are there any PCs on the market that have to be plugged into another PC to receive software updates?

Another interesting PC question - Do PC's NEED software updates at all?
post #62 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotCEOyouda View Post

I disagree. Calling a bicycle a car is incorrect. Both, however, are personal transport.

Calling a tablet a notebook or a desktop would similarly be incorrect. It would be similarly correct, however, to call each of them a personal computer.


So then if BMW sells bicycles, should they class them together with their cars for market-share numbers.. Because it would seem that many here believe the iPad and Mac should be tallied together as one product category for market share purposes..
post #63 of 189
Steve Jobs agrees this is a separate category of machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saILJHAD6YU
post #64 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

It can't be defined by input method, as this has changed over the course of its history.

It can't be defined by processing power or ability, because then WTF would you call computers 30 years ago?

People here are picking whichever lines they feel applies to themselves personally to define what a PC is, which is inherently flawed.

I think a PC or a type of PC, is ever-changing. The desktop and laptop have been around for a long time and there wasn't a need to differentiate the 2 since their monickers distinguished their category. More recently, smartphones (in larger numbers), netbooks and tablets have entered the scene that now requires a revisit of what constitutes a PC. I think smartphones, and eReaders too, should not be included in the PC generic category but then again as they become more powerful, maybe they should as well. The key to me is setting up categories for each type of PC (desktop, notebook, netbook, tablet, smartphone maybe, eReader maybe and future others) and then report the sales numbers under the appropriate category. That should not be difficult to do and would eliminate the swirl of confusion.
post #65 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Another interesting PC question: are there any PCs on the market that have to be plugged into another PC to receive software updates?

MacBook Air!

The only way to install software is to use a host. And yet, clearly it is a personal computer.
post #66 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1reflectsathome View Post

I think a PC or a type of PC, is ever-changing. The desktop and laptop have been around for a long time and there wasn't a need to differentiate the 2 since their monickers distinguished their category. More recently, smartphones (in larger numbers), netbooks and tablets have entered the scene that now requires a revisit of what constitutes a PC. I think smartphones, and eReaders too, should not be included in the PC generic category but then again as they become more powerful, maybe they should as well. The key to me is setting up categories for each type of PC (desktop, notebook, netbook, tablet, smartphone maybe, eReader maybe and future others) and then report the sales numbers under the appropriate category. That should not be difficult to do and would eliminate the swirl of confusion.

I agree with this, there being different categories for PC's....that makes sense.

But they ARE PC's.

Remember processing power has nothing to do with it, considering where PC's were just 10 years ago.
post #67 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotCEOyouda View Post

MacBook Air!

The only way to install software is to use a host. And yet, clearly it is a personal computer.

Or... buy from the App Store or plug in a DVD drive...

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #68 of 189
Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?

Some people are just unimaginably arrogant. Do you read before posting a response? It's very clear to me that the iPad is BETTER than most pcs that have ever existed, and many that exist now. This is not a debatable subject. It's frigging GOOD. Hell I'm using one right now.

But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.
post #69 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

Steve Jobs agrees this is a separate category of machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saILJHAD6YU

Well then it must be gospel because he also says blu-ray is bag of hurt, promised white iPhones would be available July 2010, says Apple would never make a netbook and on and on and on- infinitum.
post #70 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotCEOyouda View Post

MacBook Air!

The only way to install software is to use a host. And yet, clearly it is a personal computer.

I really hate it when people display poor reading comprehension. First of all, you are completely wrong. Secondly I said UPDATES. 3rd, no the MacBook air ships with a thumb drive containing the restore disc, and 4th it has always been able to use the super drive accessory.

And, it ships activated. Complete and total fail on your part. Next.
post #71 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotCEOyouda View Post

MacBook Air!

The only way to install software is to use a host. And yet, clearly it is a personal computer.

You can install software on the MBA via USB thumb drive, the Mac App store or with the optional superdrive., a host is not required...
post #72 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

This is why I can get worked up over this.

This is an example of a totally ludicrous and false definition of what a computer is.

I mean it literally is incorrect in every way.

That ipad is more capable than the majority of computers to have ever been in existence.

The iPad obviously is a "computer".
And it obviously is a computer that is designed primarily for "personal" usage.

Along the same lines, a four-function pocket electronic calculator indisputably is also a "computer".
And four-function pocket calculators indisputably are designed primarily for personal use.

And yet, when you take the word "personal" and put it together with the word "computer", you end up with the loaded term "Personal Computer" (capitalization added intentionally), abbreviated as "PC", whose definition (by common consensus) seems to contain some extra connotation beyond what is understood by the two words taken separately.

a four-function pocket calculator would not fit anybody's modern definition of the loaded term "PC". No more than a microwave oven would. Or an iPod shuffle. Or an inkjet printer. Even though they all are computational devices (computers) which are primarily designed for personal use, they are not "Personal Computers" in their own right.

The iPad approaches the area where the lines get very blurry indeed. To some, it would appear as an appliance -- an accessory that goes along with another device which is their primary PC. To others, the iPad appears to be a PC in its own right.

To me personally, the iPad (and other iOS devices in general) has more in common with inkjet printers and iPod shuffles (PC accessories), rather than being a PC in its own right. But I can understand the justification for both peoples' opinions on the matter, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.
post #73 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun View Post

So then if BMW sells bicycles, should they class them together with their cars for market-share numbers.. Because it would seem that many here believe the iPad and Mac should be tallied together as one product category for market share purposes..


It depends on what market you are talking about. If you are interested in the personal transportation market, then the answer is yes. If you are interested in the bicycle market, the answer is no.

Similarly, if you are interested in the personal computer market, your choice of sub-categories would be different from another researcher interested in, say, the market for palmtop computers like the iPod Touch.
post #74 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?

Some people are just unimaginably arrogant. Do you read before posting a response? It's very clear to me that the iPad is BETTER than most pcs that have ever existed, and many that exist now. This is not a debatable subject. It's frigging GOOD. Hell I'm using one right now.

But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.

I don't think anyone disagrees that it needs to initially connected to a host to be activated.. However, that is an Apple imposed restriction, not a technological one. Furthermore, doing so does not disqualify it from being a computer, it is a computer, the question is should it be classified as a traditional PC for market share purposes..

My opinion is no.
post #75 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotCEOyouda View Post

It depends on what market you are talking about. If you are interested in the personal transportation market, then the answer is yes. If you are interested in the bicycle market, the answer is no.

Similarly, if you are interested in the personal computer market, your choice of sub-categories would be different from another researcher interested in, say, the market for palmtop computers like the iPod Touch.

Well basically, you've proved my point, that while the iPad is *technically* a computer it is a very different product than a traditional Desktop or laptop PC and should be counted as a separate product category for market share purposes.
post #76 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun View Post

I don't think anyone disagrees that it needs to initially connected to a host to be activated.. However, that is an Apple imposed restriction, not a technological one. Furthermore, doing so does not disqualify it from being a computer, it is a computer, the question is should it be classified as a traditional PC for market share purposes..

My opinion is no.

This is of course, correct. No one in their right mind could possibly disagree. It is in fact a "computer", and it does in fact not belong with traditional PC sales numbers.

It belongs with category iPad numbers.
post #77 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?

Some people are just unimaginably arrogant. Do you read before posting a response? It's very clear to me that the iPad is BETTER than most pcs that have ever existed, and many that exist now. This is not a debatable subject. It's frigging GOOD. Hell I'm using one right now.

But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.

If you bought it at an apple store, it could be turned on there, and you don't NEED to update it.
post #78 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?[

Some people are just unimaginably arrogant...

You just implied that anyone that disgrees with your definition of PC is an idiot yet they are the arrogant ones?


Quote:
But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.

Apple also marketing the Mac as not being a PC. They did this for a reason, just like they choose to make the iPad a satellite PC reliant on a primary PC. This was a a design choice, not an engineering limitation.

You are right that its not an arbitrary inconvenience. While its certainly an inconvenience in many ways it serves a clear and decided purpose. I think you are missing Apples intention for marketing and selling the device. You cant be a market leader by advertising how you just like everything else.

The bottom line is all of these devices can be defined as personal' and computers', so saying others are stupid because they see the bigger picture outside of Windows-based pigeonhole simply isnt fair on your part.

One day I can see Apple lifting that tethering restriction. Will you call it a PC then or will the goal posts move to disallow it a computing device. If they allow initial activation and OTA updates on other iDevices will see them as personal computers?

Why does the definition have to be so limited? Why cant there be multiple definitions, like grocers putting tomatoes and mushrooms in with vegetables when they arent. Do biologists get upset that tomatoes arent with other fruits in a grocery store? Not the sane ones. Why cant we have traditional PCs, handheld PCs, tablet PCs, pocketable PCs, etc?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #79 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

I agree with this, there being different categories for PC's....that makes sense.

But they ARE PC's.

Remember processing power has nothing to do with it, considering where PC's were just 10 years ago.

I agree with you regarding processing power. It was manufacturers though who used processing power, amount of memory, screen size and resolution to distinguish netbooks from notebooks. I must admit that distinction has recently blurred as netbooks became increasingly powerful and bigger in size. Other than netbooks, categorizing all the other devices should be done relatively easy, without the need to specify processing speed, memory etc., because there physical characteristics should be enough to identify the specific PC sub-category they belong in.
post #80 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

If you bought it at an apple store, it could be turned on there, and you don't NEED to update it.

After all the crap you needed to vent, this is the first point you've made that approaches,

1. Discussion

2. Relevancy.

Good point. It can be activated in the store. What happens when it's not? Like every single online purchase? Gift?

What happens then when it crashes/locks up? Back to the Apple store?

You're definitely right that it never needs to be updated. Of course, that was no where remotely near my point. My point was how the software can be updated. As far I know, there exists no PC on the market that requires ANOTHER PC for basic software updates. That would seem to stand out as...significant.
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