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post #161 of 289
My view: protests that only include college students and the middle class (like Yemen today, and last year in Iran) always fail, while protests that originate from the lower class (like 1977 Iran and Egypt today) are more likely to succeed - and more likely to result in a religious dictatorship that would be prone to war.

And I have never met anyone with like mind, really
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post #162 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

My view: protests that only include college students and the middle class (like Yemen today, and last year in Iran) always fail, while protests that originate from the lower class (like 1977 Iran and Egypt today) are more likely to succeed - and more likely to result in a religious dictatorship that would be prone to war.

And I have never met anyone with like mind, really

[snidePOposter] Yet you provide NO PROOF to support your view. Can you provide a link? At least participate in the debate we have having here with some support of these "facts" you present [snidePOposter]
post #163 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

My view: protests that only include college students and the middle class (like Yemen today, and last year in Iran) always fail, while protests that originate from the lower class (like 1977 Iran and Egypt today) are more likely to succeed - and more likely to result in a religious dictatorship that would be prone to war.

You think the Iranian Revolution was lower class? And Egypt today?

Quote:
And I have never met anyone with like mind, really

I believe you
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post #164 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You think the Iranian Revolution was lower class? And Egypt today?

Yes. Iran has a high gini coefficient today, and I can't find the data from the end of the Shah's reign - but I am guessing that it was higher or else they would not have had a revolution in the first place.

Egypt has low income inequality, about the same as Canada, but that just means that almost everyone is poor. You don't have food riots like that unless there are a lot of poor people.
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post #165 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Yes. Iran has a high gini coefficient today, and I can't find the data from the end of the Shah's reign - but I am guessing that it was higher or else they would not have had a revolution in the first place.

Egypt has low income inequality, about the same as Canada, but that just means that almost everyone is poor. You don't have food riots like that unless there are a lot of poor people.

The problem is you see everything - like a good American - in terms of money. And consequently you measure the possibilities and outcomes in places like Iran and Egypt by that benchmark.

Hence your comments linking oil prices and status to possibilities of war.

You can't see it but there are large portions of the world where other things are a factor and money is not the benchmark at all.

If you think the Iranian revolution was about that then you are missing something.
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post #166 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

If you think the Iranian revolution was about that then you are missing something.

I think it was mostly about money and food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backgro...mic_Revolution

They had a other grievances, but if they had been financially well off they would not have revolted. Same with China, same with France, Russia 1917, etc. The relationship between hunger and political revolution is so well established I am surprised to even hear the link questioned, frankly.
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post #167 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I I am surprised to even hear the link questioned, frankly.

I rest my case.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #168 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I rest my case.

Name one revolution that has occurred in a country with a well fed population that has financial security.
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post #169 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Name one revolution that has occurred in a country with a well fed population that has financial security.

Iranian
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #170 of 289
It is being reported that behind closed doors the US-administration is negotiating with Suleiman, some opposition-groups and the military to create an interim-government and to force Mubarak to stand down now.

It would obviously ease the transition but I don't like the involvement of the US again, maybe it would be better if the egyptians achieved their solutions on their own eventhough it would be harder, longer and bloodier.
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post #171 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

It is being reported that behind closed doors the US-administration is negotiating with Suleiman, some opposition-groups and the military to create an interim-government and to force Mubarak to stand down now.

It would obviously ease the transition but I don't like the involvement of the US again, maybe it would be better if the egyptians achieved their solutions on their own eventhough it would be harder, longer and bloodier.

Exactly.

What the hell business is it of the US? Don't they ever learn?

Still, we knew this would happen. And we know it means trouble. Could be interesting though - see how far the protesters will take it.

They refuse Mubarak. Will they continue and reject the next US puppet or accept the sop?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #172 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Exactly.

What the hell business is it of the US? Don't they ever learn?

Still, we knew this would happen. And we know it means trouble. Could be interesting though - see how far the protesters will take it.

They refuse Mubarak. Will they continue and reject the next US puppet or accept the sop?

I have often thought that the US gov't has over-reached with foreign policy. Do I love my country? Yes. Do I always like how the government handles things both foreign and domestic?

No.
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #173 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I have often thought that the US gov't has over-reached with foreign policy. Do I love my country? Yes. Do I always like how the government handles things both foreign and domestic?

No.

Yeah, but it is not even a question of that - no country has any business DECIDING who will rule another.

Ok...deals and alliances after someone is in power, ok, not necessarily good but it happens and everyone does it - but actually influencing the process before it gets to the people......

That's where I draw a line.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #174 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Iranian

From the wikipedia link above:

"# Failure of his overly ambitious 1974 economic program to meet expectations raised by the oil revenue windfall. A short, sharp period of economic contraction and decline in 1977-78 following a considerable period of economic growth, that according to scholar of revolutions Crane Brinton creates disappointment much greater "than if people had been left in poverty all along." [30]
# Bottlenecks, shortages and inflation that were followed by austerity measures, attacks on alleged price gougers and black-markets, that angered both the bazaar and the masses.[8]"

It isn't a coincidence that the Egyptians are rebelling now. Why now and not in the last 30 years some other time? Because now they are running out of oil and Bernanke is exporting food inflation to the rest of the world with his foolish policies.
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post #175 of 289
The egyptians have also been watching the open political process in Iraq. Although the anti-freedom left would deny it, wanting some of that action in their own country motivates people as well. After all you have to keep up with the neighbors.
post #176 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah, but it is not even a question of that - no country has any business DECIDING who will rule another.

Some may argue what I'm about to say is all semantics, but I disagree.

These are different things:
  • country - a collection of people in a certain geographical area
  • government - collection of people who think they can, should and have the right to rule over a country (or some smaller division of people)

Governments are entities that are all about ruling others, so it is entirely consistent that one government (the US government for example) would feel it is perfect fine for it to tell another country how it should be rule (by another government of course).

One way to think about this is that governments (a.k.a "states") are simply a collection of people ("a criminal gang writ large" as one writer once put it) who have commandeered control over a country and, sometimes, have done so by convincing the people of that country that they have legitimate authority.

Some will say "What about democratically elected governments?" Well that's kind of a smoke screen. A misdirection. At best the democratically elected government is simply a government who has received the (current) consent of 51% of the people to rule over 100% of the people. Basically a majority has simply selected a government ("a criminal gang writ large") to do their bidding and rule over everyone.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #177 of 289
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post #178 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah, but it is not even a question of that - no country has any business DECIDING who will rule another.

Ok...deals and alliances after someone is in power, ok, not necessarily good but it happens and everyone does it - but actually influencing the process before it gets to the people......

That's where I draw a line.

Really? So when The Carter Center influences an election process in a country to be open and fair you would consider that wrong? Or how about other countries commenting on what the impact of electing someone like George Bush would have on international relations? They shouldn't cross that line?
post #179 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Really? So when The Carter Center influences an election process in a country to be open and fair you would consider that wrong?

Yep...if the Carter Centre was an arm of the US or any other administration - but then I am not seeing things though a partisan Left/Right lens.

Quote:
Or how about other countries commenting on what the impact of electing someone like George Bush would have on international relations? They shouldn't cross that line?

Commenting is fine. I believe I stipulated the terms before the electorate of that country decides so I suppose that might translate into:


Country X trying to get George Bush installed in the White House, prior to, bypassing and regardless of the US electorate's vote.
Which I would not support.

Hopefully - though i wonder - you would not either.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #180 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yep...if the Carter Centre was an arm of the US or any other administration - but then I am not seeing things though a partisan Left/Right lens.

Okay so? If Carter Center gets money from the government then it's not okay. So let's assume they don't. Where does their money come from? Private donors? So you are okay with wealthy individuals using something like Carter Center to influence elections but not the government of a democratically elected body that gets its money from the public.

So for you it's okay for private secret funding to influence elections but not overt influence from governments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Commenting is fine. I believe I stipulated the terms before the electorate of that country decides so I suppose that might translate into:


Country X trying to get George Bush installed in the White House, prior to, bypassing and regardless of the US electorate's vote.
Which I would not support.

Hopefully - though i wonder - you would not either.

Yea but the people of US are voting and not country X. And shouldn't the people of the US know and hear from country X on what the reaction might be to electing a particular candidate? Maybe in the 1930s other countries should have said, "Sure you can vote for Hilter but ..."

I always side for more speech and not less.
post #181 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Okay so? If Carter Center gets money from the government then it's not okay. So let's assume they don't. Where does their money come from? Private donors? So you are okay with wealthy individuals using something like Carter Center to influence elections but not the government of a democratically elected body that gets its money from the public.

So for you it's okay for private secret funding to influence elections but not overt influence from governments?

Not at all.

I would say a group with an interest in democracy could try to promote democracy in any country where it does not exist. As long as it is not forced and references the will of the people.

If they promote a specific individual or party I would perhaps have a problem with that but a concept is ok.

Unless it is fundie Xianity hahahahahah.

Quote:
Yea but the people of US are voting and not country X. And shouldn't the people of the US know and hear from country X on what the reaction might be to electing a particular candidate? Maybe in the 1930s other countries should have said, "Sure you can vote for Hilter but ..."

That is not what I'm talking about.

I am talking about actually installing Hitler. Or whoever.

Quote:
I always side for more speech and not less.

Depends whose speech I suppose....definitely less is more in many cases.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #182 of 289
America's involvement in a new Egypt will destroy Egypt. The US will try to get Egypt as close to Iraq as it can, ie a corporate empowering nightmare, that effectively renders the people of Egypt slaves. Very sad, but not unexpected. Hopefully the Egyptians will fight it, before it's too late.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #183 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

America's involvement in a new Egypt will destroy Egypt. The US will try to get Egypt as close to Iraq as it can, ie a corporate empowering nightmare, that effectively renders the people of Egypt slaves. Very sad, but not unexpected. Hopefully the Egyptians will fight it, before it's too late.

Can we at least say the US government's involvement?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #184 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Can we at least say the US government's involvement?

Definitely.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #185 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Can we at least say the US government's involvement?


Yes We Cannot!

To quote you from earlier-

"I have no problem seeing HM gone from Egypt..."
~ MJ1970

From the Egyptian government would have been far more accurate. Hell he could leave Egypt and vacation in the US in one of his many dives there whilst still being an evil dictatorial president of Egypt.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #186 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes We Cannot!

To quote you from earlier-

"I have no problem seeing HM gone from Egypt..."
~ MJ1970

From the Egyptian government would have been far more accurate. Hell he could leave Egypt and vacation in the US in one of his many dives there whilst still being an evil dictatorial president of Egypt.

Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #187 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?

Oh, so you are excusing yourself, that's very humble of you!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #188 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Oh, so you are excusing yourself, that's very humble of you!

I'll ask politely once more: Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #189 of 289
Thread Starter 
I thought the most incompetent President in history couldn't possibly damage the United States any more than he already has. I was wrong.

By publicly calling upon Mubarak to resign he has undermined our relationship with just about every other country on Earth. Mubarak is a brutal dictator, no doubt, but how do you expect the president of any country to react to Obama calling for his resignation? What do you suppose King Abdullah is thinking - hey, I'm on the side of the US, but the moment a crisis occurs, President Obama will call for my head too? Some friend the US is.

I'm no diplomat, but I'm sensitive enough to understand no one in his right mind publicly meddles in a sovereign country's affairs in such an overtly boorish manner. For a US President to do so would have been unthinkable. So I thought.

Jordan and Egypt are probably the only two US-friendly countries left in the Middle East. Egypt may go the way of Iran... and then what do you suppose Israel will do? If Netanyahu has any intelligence at all, and I think he does, he'll quickly learn the US won't lift a finger to help in the event of a crisis. Who's next? Germany? Japan?

Obama has now demonstrated that his first instinct would be to cave in to the demands of an angry mob - as long as they're in some other far-off country, that is.

So what, you think? That brings us to Saudi Arabia - the only remaining US ally in that part of the world, despite having sent nineteen islamic terrorists to kill us ten years ago. Well, it seems they have offered to match the US's magnanimous billions of foreign aid to Egypt, should the US threaten to use its increasingly emaciated muscle to influence events over there. Who needs the pathetic US dollar anyway.

Millions of Americans were duped by a nice face and a good speech into thinking Obama was capable enough for the job. I never understood that, having actually read some of his writing I concluded (like anyone who read some of his writing would conclude) that he was dumb as a post. I'm afraid he's turned out to be much worse than I thought. Obama is a goddamn fool who's already wreaked incalculable damage to the US, and is now intent upon inflicting his incompetence upon the rest of the world.

Obama's mishandling of this disturbing situation has made it likely to end worse for the US than it does for Egypt or any other country. He could have handled this event in almost any other manner.

His ineptitude is boundless.

http://m.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/02...not-going-work
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/09...-aid-to-egypt/
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post #190 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'll ask politely once more: Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?

Hands goes dark
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post #191 of 289
Thread Starter 
While I'm at it, where is the CIA on the CR cut list? Absent. They didn't see this coming, so what the hell good is the CIA?

What is its budget anyway - oh I suppose it's classified

Kill it.

http://appropriations.house.gov/inde...Release_id=259
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post #192 of 289
Egypt protests: Hosni Mubarak 'may be stepping down'
Quote:
A senior member of Egypt's ruling party has told the BBC he is "hoping" that President Hosni Mubarak will transfer power to Vice-President Omar Suleiman.
Hossan Badrawi, the secretary general of the National Democratic Party (NDP), said Mr Mubarak would "probably" speak to the nation tonight.
His comments came after Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq told BBC Arabic that the scenario of President Mubarak stepping down was being discussed.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #193 of 289
Egypt Foreign Minister Warns of Military Intervention
Quote:
CAIRO As Egypts uprising entered its 17th day on Thursday, bolstered by strikes and protests among professional groups in Cairo and workers across the country, a senior official in President Hosni Mubaraks embattled government was quoted as saying the army would intervene to control the country if it fell into chaos....
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #194 of 289
Quote:

Yep, looks like tongith's the night! Yay!!!



Update: looks like he will address the country tonight in a speech - but some reports say that this speech is already recorded and some people claim to have seen it.

It is also being reported that Mubarak has already left the country and that he is now on his way to Dubai or Paris.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #195 of 289
He's speaking now.....looks like he's going nowhere. More of the same.

Total disgrace - he has the bs effrontery to pledge to bring the killers of the protesters to justice...WTF?????? IT WAS HIM!!!!!!

More BS - claiming to fight foreign interference and playing the patriot card - again: he was the one who sucked US...err...toadied to the US. What a crock.

It's Friday tomorrow - they will never EVER buy this in the mosques or in the square. Now it will go seismic....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #196 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

He's speaking now.....looks like he's going nowhere. More of the same.

Total disgrace - he has the bs effrontery to pledge to bring the killers of the protesters to justice...WTF?????? IT WAS HIM!!!!!!

More BS - claiming to fight foreign interference and playing the patriot card - again: he was the one who sucked US...err...toadied to the US. What a crock.

It's Friday tomorrow - they will never EVER buy this in the mosques or in the square. Now it will go seismic....

No resignation.

It's pretty clear that he has been personally insulted by "outside forces" (i.e. Obama) calling for his resignation. Whereas he may have stepped down in the past, to do so now - at the behest of the US or any other nation - would only support his reputation as being a puppet for the US. True or not, he's made it clear that's not how he's going to leave.

Lots of promises about changing their Constitution... as if that will quell the rebellion.
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post #197 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

No resignation.

It's pretty clear that he has been personally insulted by "outside forces" (i.e. Obama) calling for his resignation. Whereas he may have stepped down in the past, to do so now - at the behest of the US or any other nation - would only support his reputation as being a puppet for the US. True or not, he's made it clear that's not how he's going to leave.

Lots of promises about changing their Constitution... as if that will quell the rebellion.

I think he pretended he was going but didn't intend to.....even the CIA were sure from some sources (not that that means much hahah).

It is a major major mistake though.

You just can't get everyone's hopes up and then dash them like that. I think he might be insane now.

Now I'm worried a bit...it's going to get nasty.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #198 of 289
Thread Starter 
NBC: "Dispirited" Obama to make written statement

He still doesn't get it. Has the Anointed One no advisers whatsoever?

Is Hillary simply sitting back, watching him dig himself deeper into the hole he's already made?

The President has already done enough damage. He needs to shut the hell up. What is this guy's major malfunction? With all the vacation's he's taken, it would be a very good time for another. Right now. A long one.

Quote:
"We've got to work this carefully," a U.S. official told Todd. "We've got to get this just right."



Too late now.
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post #199 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

. Now it will go seismic....

That's what he wants, so he can put it down his way without looking totally off his cracker.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #200 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

With all the vacation's he's taken...

LMFAO... now I know you're a parody designed to make Libertarians look like complete morons...

Quiz: Out of the last 5 presidents, who has taken the FEWEST holidays? Hint: It's not George W. Bush!
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