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post #241 of 289
Egypt revolution: With a military junta in charge, now the politics start
Quote:
What next?

Two principal camps are emerging. One wants to approach the military junta that took command of Egypt on Friday afternoon with a unified list of demands, including replacing Mubaraks last cabinet as quickly as possible. Others want to maintain the protest momentum as well, keeping the pressure on the generals to deliver democratic reform, and fast. But the second option carries risks with a military that feels that it has been extremely responsive to the people's desires and needs to maintain order.

Theres a new protest ethic in Egypt: When you get angry, you get some people together and make signs, says Shadi Hamid, research director at the Brooking Institutions Doha Center. I think thats a good thing, but thats not something military is going to look kindly on indefinitely. From their standpoint theyve given the people what they want. What more is there to ask for?

Remember, the militarys mandate is to preserve the stability of the state," says Mr. Hamid. "So if people go back to Tahrir Square and [the state radio and television building] and close up the center of the city again, theyre not likely to tolerate that kind of action...

Quote:
But Alaa Abd El Fattah, a democracy activist and blogger, taking a break from a Friday night strategy session of about 30 people on the roof of downtown Cairos Carlton Hotel, said he worries that the absence of a new cabinet of national unity could make pushing for democracy harder.

At the moment, the military isnt talking to anyone, I dont think they really know who to talk to, he said. Right now, all the existing parties are trying to cut deals and get something for themselves the longer this goes on, the better chance they have of success.

Egypt military dissolves parliament and scheduless elections but leaves emergency laws in place
Quote:
...The military had earlier pledged to lift the emergency laws [JURIST report] that have been in place since former President Hosni Mubarak [Al Jazeera profile] assumed power. Prior to Mubarak's resignation, Egypt's government had reached out [JURIST report] to various opposition leaders in the wake of demonstrations that have swept the country. Among those in the opposition that have been approached are the Muslim Brotherhood [official website], the oldest and largest Islamic political group in the world, currently banned from Egypt. According to some commentators, the unrest in Egypt is closely related to the recent civil unrest in Tunisia [JURIST op-ed] that culminated last month with the resignation of President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali [JURIST report].


For now the military is in control, lets hope when the time comes that they act in the best interest of the country and relinquish power to a new government.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #242 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

For now the military is in control, lets hope when the time comes that they act in the best interest of the country and relinquish power to a new government.

Yes, let's hope...but since history provides scant support for this hope, let's also be realistic.

In this place in particular look at the History. Anwar Sadat, a military man who took party in the military coup in Egypt in 1952 (which put Gamal Abdel Nasser Hussein, also a military man until he became President for 14 years) and later became President of Egypt (for 11 years) until he was assassinated by a small military faction which then put Sadat's loyal Vice President, Hosni Mubarak, himself a military man, into power (for 30 years), who has now handed power over to Mohamed Hussein Tantawi who has been a military man for 55 years.

So...we'll see.

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post #243 of 289
Even in the American political spectrum, Obama is not Left.

No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a health care bill that doesn't have a public option.
No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a tax cut extension bill that doesn't have an income cap.
No one on the left, even in the US, would still be in Afghanistan and have Guantanamo still open.
No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a stimulus bill that gives cash to Wall Street instead of workers.

Obama is barely left of Reagan, if he is at all. He is right of George HW Bush.
post #244 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Even in the American political spectrum, Obama is not Left.

No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a health care bill that doesn't have a public option.
No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a tax cut extension bill that doesn't have an income cap.
No one on the left, even in the US, would still be in Afghanistan and have Guantanamo still open.
No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a stimulus bill that gives cash to Wall Street instead of workers.

Obama is barely left of Reagan, if he is at all. He is right of George HW Bush.

OK. We get it. The U.S. is not left enough for you. Fine.

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post #245 of 289
Thread Starter 
So, O is not left enough. If that means he's not far left enough for the most stupidly left of all leftists to support, and too far left for everyone else, so much the better.

O didn't present a health "care" bill. Congress did that. It contained none of the solutions he campaigned on, it reneged on a campaign pledge not to mandate insurance, it reneged on a promise not to raise taxes on the middle class, it will raise insurance premiums, it kills jobs and reduces incomes, it's an unconstitutional, unworkable, steaming dung heap from which 733 waivers have already been granted (and counting), and he signed it anyway.

He also signed Congress's extension of the Bush tax cuts, which would not have happened if incumbent left-wing Congressmen weren't soundly defeated in a election that amounted to a referendum on his extreme positions.

To question the degree of Obama's left-winged-ness is pointless. What's clear is that he's a moron unworthy of the office.
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post #246 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

For now the military is in control, lets hope when the time comes that they act in the best interest of the country and relinquish power to a new government.

Suspend the Constitution... and that's supposed to be a good thing:

Quote:
The 18-member Supreme Council of the Armed Forces allayed many people's concerns by moving swiftly to dismiss the legislature, packed with Mubarak loyalists, and sidelining the constitution, used by Mubarak to buttress his rule. Activists said they would closely watch the military to ensure it does not abuse its unchecked power -- something that is clearly starting to make some uneasy.

Understandable. I surmise the unknown was preferable to the known.

Quote:
The council "believes that human freedom, the rule of law, support for the value of equality, pluralistic democracy, social justice, and the uprooting of corruption are the bases for the legitimacy of any system of governance that will lead the country in the upcoming period," the Council said in a statement.

Clearly their Constitution was perceived as an instrument designed to protect Mubarak. A government that needs protection from the people it serves is a failed government. If they're going to draft a new Constitution, they'd be wise to draft one designed to protect the people from government.

I hope they do it right. A Constitution that doesn't begin and end with the simple acknowledgment of freedom as an inalienable human right... is not.

"Social justice" means different things to different people. Spell it out. As it stands, it's not an encouraging sign.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02...#ixzz1DtkACcvQ
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post #247 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

If they're going to draft a new Constitution, they'd be wise to draft one designed to protect the people from government.

Hey! We had one of those...until those in power stopped heeding it. More than a constitution a nation needs a people who truly live freedom and are willing to have a revolution almost every day if necessary to retain it for themselves and others. Now these revolutions might be much smaller in nature...like kicking out politicians at the polls that try implementing laws and policies that restrict freedom and violate a rightly composed constitution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

I hope they do it right. A Constitution that doesn't begin and end with the simple acknowledgment of freedom as an inalienable human right... is not.

"Social justice" means different things to different people. Spell it out. As it stands, it's not an encouraging sign.

Agree on both counts. Same with equality. That means different things to different people and could present some problems.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #248 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Even in the American political spectrum, Obama is not Left.

No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a health care bill that doesn't have a public option.
No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a tax cut extension bill that doesn't have an income cap.
No one on the left, even in the US, would still be in Afghanistan and have Guantanamo still open.
No one on the left, even in the US, would have presented a stimulus bill that gives cash to Wall Street instead of workers.

Obama is barely left of Reagan, if he is at all. He is right of George HW Bush.

You're confusing what he can get done with what he wants to get done.

Just because the political realities of separation of powers limit what Obama can do doesn't mean he doesn't want to do it. There's little doubt he'd hand unions every concession they want including projectionist trade decisions, lavish government contracts and a lock on the private sector via card check. Given free control over the budget he'd "stimulate" every sector of the economy and pay for it with (well let's hope he would pay for it) with tax increases. "Green" economy and cap'n trade would be the law of the land. He would massively increase the social welfare state. We would nationalize whatever sector of industry he chose. Shoot? He gave control of a car company to the unions and ignored the rule of law to do it. It's his instinct.

Just because he can't do any of these things within the confines of separated powers and a bill of rights doesn't mean his thinking and instinct isn't left of the US political spectrum.
post #249 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

You're confusing what he can get done with what he wants to get done.

Just because the political realities of separation of powers limit what Obama can do doesn't mean he doesn't want to do it. There's little doubt he'd hand unions every concession they want including projectionist trade decisions, lavish government contracts and a lock on the private sector via card check. Given free control over the budget he'd "stimulate" every sector of the economy and pay for it with (well let's hope he would pay for it) with tax increases. "Green" economy and cap'n trade would be the law of the land. He would massively increase the social welfare state. We would nationalize whatever sector of industry he chose. Shoot? He gave control of a car company to the unions and ignored the rule of law to do it. It's his instinct.

Just because he can't do any of these things within the confines of separated powers and a bill of rights doesn't mean his thinking and instinct isn't left of the US political spectrum.

You're deluded.

How on Earth do you know what he wants to get done? It would seem that if he wanted a public option, as most Americans support such a plan, he at least would have proposed it and waited for the Republican response to work out a deal in-between. But he didn't even PROPOSE it.

Obama's budget proposal. DEFINITELY NOT LEFT.

"President Barack Obama, less than two months after signing tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans into law, is proposing a budget to congress that attacks programs that assist the working poor, help the needy heat their homes, expand access to graduate-level education and undermine that type of community-based organizations that gave the president his start in Chicago. Obama's new budget puts forward a plan to achieve $1.1 trillion in deficit reductions over the next decade. Those reductions -- averaging just over $100 billion each year -- are achieved mainly by squeezing social programs."

Yeah, sounds left wing to me...

If George Bush or Ron Paul had proposed the exact same thing, you right wingers would be having an orgasm right now.
post #250 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Suspend the Constitution... and that's supposed to be a good thing:

Clearly their Constitution was perceived as an instrument designed to protect Mubarak. A government that needs protection from the people it serves is a failed government. If they're going to draft a new Constitution, they'd be wise to draft one designed to protect the people from government.

Wiki_Constitution of Egypt

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE ARAB REPUBLIC OF EGYPT

STUDY OF THE PRESENT EGYPTIAN CONSTITUTION AND THE LAW ARTICLES
THAT CONFLICT WITH MINORITY RIGHTS


Egypt: Constitutional Proclamation
Quote:
The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, aware of this critical moment in the history of the nation; fulfilling its historical and constitutional responsibility to protect the country and to preserve the safety and security of its territory, and aspiring to fulfill their duty to administer the affairs of the country, fully cognizant that the true challenge that faces our dear country Egypt is to release the creative powers of every member of our great people by providing freedom, and facilitating democratic processes through constitutional and legislative amendments, which the fulfill to the legitimate demands expressed by the people recently, and which go even further to wider horizons worthy of the stature of Egypt whose people built the first civilization in human history.

Two of the key demands of the protestors besides the removal of Mubarak was dissolving parliament and suspending the constitution. So far the military has kept the peace and appears to heading in the right direction....time will tell.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #251 of 289
Egypts Ruling Generals Meet With Opposition
Quote:
CAIRO The military leaders now governing Egypt have told a coalition of young opposition leaders that they plan to convene a panel of distinguished jurists to submit a package of constitutional amendments within 10 days for approval in a national referendum within two months, setting a breakneck schedule for the transition to civilian role.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #252 of 289
Here's hoping they get some basic individual rights into their constitution.
post #253 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Here's hoping they get some basic individual rights into their constitution.

Let's rather hope that they actually ARE individuals rather than a bunch of sheep who fool themselves they are free because a bit of paper once said so while all the time they are being fattened for the slaughter-house.

Wait...they already ARE individuals BS legal paper or not......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #254 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Let's rather hope that they actually ARE individuals rather than a bunch of sheep who fool themselves they are free because a bit of paper once said so while all the time they are being fattened for the slaughter-house.

Wait...they already ARE individuals BS legal paper or not......

Yea I was thinking the same thing.
post #255 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea I was thinking the same thing.

I doubt it very much...I'm pretty sure you are one of the ones that needs a paper enshrined somewhere to feel free rather than draw it from within yourself, aplogies if I'm wrong.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #256 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I doubt it very much...I'm pretty sure you are one of the ones that needs a paper enshrined somewhere to feel free rather than draw it from within yourself, aplogies if I'm wrong.

I would never be so arrogant to think that in the course of my life and times I would be as inspired as the founders of my country. I'm glad they wrote down their ideas for liberty and signed their names to it so that the whole world could learn how it's done.
post #257 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I would never be so arrogant to think that in the course of my life and times I would be as inspired as the founders of my country. I'm glad they wrote down their ideas for liberty and signed their names to it so that the whole world could learn how it's done.

That's what I meant. Fair enough.

I've got a friend who says exactly the same thing - weird, it's almost word for word as the last sentence - but about the Sunna and Shari'a.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #258 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Here's hoping they get some basic individual rights into their constitution.

Egypt military appoints judges to amend constitution
[JURIST] The Egyptian Supreme Council of the Armed Forces announced Tuesday that it has formed a committee of judges and politicians to oversee amending the Egyptian constitution within the next 10 days. When the council assumed power on Sunday, it indicated that part of its transition plan was to form a committee to amend constitutional articles prior to holding a public referendum. The plan follows the intentions of ousted president Hosni Mubarak, who had approved the formation of a panel to amend the constitution before he resigned. The changes may also allow the creation of new political parties. The Muslim Brotherhood, which is currently banned in Egypt, announced on Tuesday that it will form a party to participate in upcoming elections. Critics say that 10 days is not enough time for the committee to make substantial changes to the constitution, such as abolishing Article 2, which upholds Sharia law. However, the new committee also suggests that the military council is on track to hold elections in six months and return power to the Egyptian people.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #259 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


"President Barack Obama, less than two months after signing tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans into law, is proposing a budget to congress that attacks programs that assist the working poor, help the needy heat their homes, expand access to graduate-level education and undermine that type of community-based organizations that gave the president his start in Chicago. Obama's new budget puts forward a plan to achieve $1.1 trillion in deficit reductions over the next decade. Those reductions -- averaging just over $100 billion each year -- are achieved mainly by squeezing social programs."

Yeah, sounds left wing to me...

If George Bush or Ron Paul had proposed the exact same thing, you right wingers would be having an orgasm right now.

I know you did not direct these comments to me but I would like to comment.

As a person who is for the most part a fiscal conservative yet voted for Obama I have a split view on this yet it tilts towards concern. I watched the President's press conference today and how he tried to defend / sell his stance behind his latest budget proposal.

I believe President Obama is one of the smartest people in DC but I have to say... I felt that he was somewhat detached from the implications of this latest budget proposal. To be clear and honest I don't blame President Obama for all of the cumulative debt which continues to spiral upwards out of control however I do feel that he has not done enough to make the debt problems facing the US enough of a significant concern. I mean I believe the deficit this year alone is projected to be around 1.6 trillion but we can rest that this budget proposal will shave off or (save) us about 100 billion per this year as divided over the 10 year projections of deficit savings this budget speaks of.

I am sorry but this 100 billion in savings seems almost pointless if during the same year we spend around 1.6 trillion more than we take in.

Am I wrong here?


My personal thought is that President Obama is trapped. Trapped with sacred cows which are not permitted to be "reformed" Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Trapped with needing to try to win the next election so he does not want to scare off voters with any mention of any meaningful reform at this moment in time as that would potentially damage his political future.

Talk about being trapped. I think at this point he is relying on keeping the best "Game face" he can knowing the heap of trouble this country is facing.

After seeing this budget and how he defended it / sold it for his one hour long press conference I came away worried for this country.

It is not all his fault where we are at this juncture by any means and I by no means on the other side of the coin can reasonably "expect" him to salvage or solve our deep mess on his own. The fact is however that the US is in terrible trouble and I don't think we have seen anything yet.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #260 of 289
I find it telling that you don't even mention the military as a sacred cow. It's a sacred cow so sacred that it can't even be named amongst the sacred cows. We spend FOUR TIMES the amount of money China does on its military. How about we just cut it in half? Why not just spend TWICE as much? Even that is terribly excessive. Come on.

And if drugs were legal and everyone had a safety net, my house wouldn't have been robbed last night and I wouldn't have to go spend almost a thousand dollars changing the locks on my car (which of course the insurance company won't even help cover because they'll only step in once the car actually gets stolen instead of having a little fucking forethought and trying to prevent a very likely loss (since the fuckers got away with my spare car key, too)).

Fuck this trickle down bullshit. Fuck these greedy ass corporations. Enough is enough. Libertarianism is just as idealistic and impossible as Communism. Deregulation doesn't fucking work when you have greedy bastards out to fuck the consumer to make an extra buck. If right wingers can claim that Communism can't work because in the real world corrupt people take power and ruin it, WHY CAN'T THE SAME EXACT ARGUMENT BE MADE ABOUT HEADS OF CORPORATIONS IN A LIBERTARIAN UTOPIA? It can. And I did.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #261 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I find it telling that you don't even mention the military as a sacred cow. It's a sacred cow so sacred that it can't even be named amongst the sacred cows. We spend FOUR TIMES the amount of money China does on its military. How about we just cut it in half? Why not just spend TWICE as much? Even that is terribly excessive. Come on.

And if drugs were legal and everyone had a safety net, my house wouldn't have been robbed last night and I wouldn't have to go spend almost a thousand dollars changing the locks on my car (which of course the insurance company won't even help cover because they'll only step in once the car actually gets stolen instead of having a little fucking forethought and trying to prevent a very likely loss (since the fuckers got away with my spare car key, too)).

Fuck this trickle down bullshit. Fuck these greedy ass corporations. Enough is enough. Libertarianism is just as idealistic and impossible as Communism. Deregulation doesn't fucking work when you have greedy bastards out to fuck the consumer to make an extra buck. If right wingers can claim that Communism can't work because in the real world corrupt people take power and ruin it, WHY CAN'T THE SAME EXACT ARGUMENT BE MADE ABOUT HEADS OF CORPORATIONS IN A LIBERTARIAN UTOPIA? It can. And I did.

Do you need any help cleaning the spittle off your keyboard and monitor?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #262 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I find it telling that you don't even mention the military as a sacred cow. It's a sacred cow so sacred that it can't even be named amongst the sacred cows. We spend FOUR TIMES the amount of money China does on its military. How about we just cut it in half? Why not just spend TWICE as much? Even that is terribly excessive. Come on.

It is not telling it is that I simply forgot to mention the elephant in the middle of the room. I am in agreement with you with regard to the military. It is obscene how much money we spend. I live in Texas and in this state half the people I know have jobs from what I call the welfare state given contracts to the respective defense contractors they work for. If not for the DOD these family members and neighbors would live closer to the real world both in terms of the cars they drive and the houses they live in. EVERYONE I know who has a cushy defense related job votes strictly republican. They are loyal to the version of welfare which they receive. I am not saying they did not go to school hence prepare themselves for a decent job. I am simply implying / suggesting that they are part of a racket which seems to have control over our government. They live the good life and enslave our children with the debt they leave in their wake. I might even call it a form of social darwinism and I think it is beyond offensive it is flat out immoral.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #263 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

The fact is however that the US is in terrible trouble and I don't think we have seen anything yet.

Everywhere is in trouble Fellows - the one's who will adapt will be the ones who realize that it is not merely their own interest at stake and to try to embrace a new way of thinking and acting.

I still think the US is best placed in the world to do this.....only the US can make the immense leaps and changes imo. Most other places are too hidebound or else backward-looking.

Whether they WILL is a different matter but they have a golden opportunity to lead the world to something good....unfortunately I don't think Obama is the man for that job though right now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #264 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Everywhere is in trouble Fellows - the one's who will adapt will be the ones who realize that it is not merely their own interest at stake and to try to embrace a new way of thinking and acting.

I still think the US is best placed in the world to do this.....only the US can make the immense leaps and changes imo. Most other places are too hidebound or else backward-looking.

Whether they WILL is a different matter but they have a golden opportunity to lead the world to something good....unfortunately I don't think Obama is the man for that job though right now.

I agree 100% with you that "everywhere is in trouble" I learned that 70% of Egyptians rely on subsidized wheat / bread and that 40% of Egyptians live on less than $2.00 a day. I have been reading that the water tables and aquifers have been stretched in much of the world and this is leading to problems at every level social, economic, political in many countries around the world. Combine with this the recent crop failures in China, floods in Australia and increased demand for food in China and India and the world's food supply is found to be clearly stressed.

I believe we as societies will have to learn to adapt to local producing of our food the most we can. Transporting food long distances and relying on others for food supply is less than optimal, less than sustainable and less than stable.

I wish many times that the world could spend less on wars and prisons and societies could focus more on sustainable agriculture and personal involvement in the food supply process. I too wish that what we see with branded packaged (processed) foods could be less of a cartel structure. We have a few corporations which own everything. Nestle, Unilever, Procter & Gamble, Con Agra, etc.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #265 of 289
Egypt's harassed women need their own revolution
Quote:
Cairo, Egypt (CNN) -- Several months before the revolution, I wrote a piece for CNN.com on the sexual harassment of women in Cairo.
News of the chilling attack on CBS reporter Lara Logan, as well as other sexual assaults against women during Egypt's uprising, show that attacks against women have not gone away.

In light of recent events in Egypt and the commitment to revise its Constitution, IMHO there has to be more attention to women's rights.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #266 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I believe President Obama is one of the smartest people in DC ...

but

Quote:
I felt that he was somewhat detached from the implications of this latest budget proposal.

How do you reconcile those statements?

You're not alone in claiming Obama is one of the smartest people in DC, yet facts suggest otherwise. Throughout his professional career, his actions have proven a fundamental inability to understand economics. He truly doesn't understand wealth or its creation. That's no crime, but he's also demonstrated an inability to appoint advisers who do either. A prerequisite of leadership is to appoint competent experts in their fields, to aggregate their skills, to apply them in policy decisions, and to guide those responsible for effecting change. Obama has had many failures executing that fundamental responsibility of his office. One has to wonder why he can't keep his advisers around for long (Christina Romer, David Axelrod, Rahm Emanuel, Larry Summers, Paul Volcker...) Is it because they can't work with him? Was he ignoring them? Carol Browner, Robert Gibbs... can't anyone work with this guy?

He doesn't understand prosperity or the attributes of the United States that have resulted in its becoming the world's wealthiest big country. Instead, he seems to think wealth is some sort of boundless natural resource to be exploited. A government that adopts a policy of "spreading the wealth around" results only in its dissolution. Only misery gets "spread around" and there's no shortage of that.

"Somewhat detached" is a very kind way to describe what I've long recognized as an overall attitude of extreme aloofness in this man. It's not a stretch to characterize this trait as arrogance, or one of entitlement; one who can do no wrong, one who listens to no one. Such characteristics simply aren't consistent with competent leadership, and always - always - result in failure.

He let Congress run away with a pathetic misappropriation of his campaign stance on insurance reform. He's authorized hundreds of billions of dollars to be thrown away on woefully ill-conceived and ultimately failed economic "stimulus". He's utterly bungled relations with long-standing US allies, from returning a bust of Winston Churchill to calling publicly embarrassing Mubarak on the world stage. Who does that? Are those the actions of an intelligent leader?

It's not unique of you to claim he's smart, but why? What has Obama done, ever, in his lifetime, to support the claim of "smartest guy in DC?"

Quote:
To be clear and honest I don't blame President Obama for all of the cumulative debt which continues to spiral upwards out of control

Fair enough, however, his proposed budget piles on even more debt. He's either not very intelligent at all, or he's just being deceptive. Which is it?

Trapped? Such a fate is a luxury not afforded to Presidents. We have big problems. They must be fixed. We created Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, the Fed... all the beasts that threaten to devour us. We created these problems; we can fix them. No one else will. They won't be fixed without pain, and they won't be fixed overnight. But you certainly don't fix problems by creating even more of them (Obamacare). Addressing these problems in a meaningful way will take a leader, and Obama isn't up to the job.

He never was.

Quote:
I am sorry but this 100 billion in savings seems almost pointless if during the same year we spend around 1.6 trillion more than we take in.

Am I wrong here?

No. Of course not. I think most Americans understand he's made pathetic proposals that only makes things worse. It's more of the same problems that got us to this point.

Americans know an economy based on debt can't continue forever They've seen it first hand. Most Americans - young people especially, don't really believe Social Security will remain solvent. There is a political atmosphere very conducive for genuine reform right now. An intelligent leader would capitalize on that. Obama simply... punted.

Quote:
After seeing this budget and how he defended it / sold it for his one hour long press conference I came away worried for this country. ... The fact is however that the US is in terrible trouble and I don't think we have seen anything yet.

Me too. The difference between you and me is that I'm not surprised. The rest of this country needs to learn there's more to leadership than a pretty face reading a Teleprompter.
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post #267 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

...long post...

+10 for intelligent, clear-headed, and knowledgeable analysis as well as coherent and eloquent presentation of the situation with Obama.

I would have just said Obama's a moron and been done with it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #268 of 289
Democracy isn't enough:

Quote:
Though one hates to nitpick, it seems that Middle East coverage on cable TV has been only almost perfect. You see, for some reason, a number of anchors and talking heads have made a careless habit of using the words "democracy" and "freedom" as if they were interchangeable ideas.


Quote:
But democracy without a moral foundation, economic freedom, and a respect for individual and human rights has the potential not to be any kind of freedom at all. It takes more than democracy to be free.

We wish the Muslim world the best in shedding its dictatorships and theocracies and finding true liberty. But let's not confuse two distinct ideas.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #269 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post




How do you reconcile those statements?

I suggested that he is trapped.
Quote:
You're not alone in claiming Obama is one of the smartest people in DC, yet facts suggest otherwise. Throughout his professional career, his actions have proven a fundamental inability to understand economics.

What did Bush give us? He did indeed give us tax cuts but only for us to "STILL" wake up one day to the financial crisis which ( threatened the world as we know it ) as this was sold to us by all the experts, central bankers and other crooks.,,, Tax cuts or not. Credit default swaps, going from stricter regulations of requiring an 8 to 1 ratio to more lax requirements of 30 to 1 ratio of lending to assets on hand was not during the Obama admin.

Quote:
Trapped? Such a fate is a luxury not afforded to Presidents. We have big problems. They must be fixed. We created Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, the Fed... all the beasts that threaten to devour us. We created these problems; we can fix them. No one else will. They won't be fixed without pain, and they won't be fixed overnight. But you certainly don't fix problems by creating even more of them (Obamacare).

Bush gave us the largest entitlement at the time with the RX drug plan trying to get re-elected. And what in God's name did Bush do to solve our long term sacred cow problems???????????? Eh? What the hell did he do????? Not a damn thing that's what.
Quote:
Addressing these problems in a meaningful way will take a leader, and Obama isn't up to the job.

He never was.

Nor was Bush.


I don't feel the US has had a real leader since JFK.

JFK got in the way however.

Fellows

Ohh and the difference between you and me is this:

I was all over Bush when he sucked.

I too am starting to think that despite my thinking Barack Obama is a smart guy he is sucking at his Job as president.

I am consistent with my displeasure regarding our leaders.

You on the other hand only seem to have displeasure with members of a certain party.

Truth be known this country is taking hits from all political angles.

I have the guts to state that obvious truth. Do you?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #270 of 289

Egyptians Wary Of Military's Constitutional Panel
Quote:
Many of the loose-knit groups that ousted Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak met Wednesday to try to form a unified front that would influence the changes needed to clear the way for free elections. But the country's military has already named a committee that would recommend changes in Egypt's constitution.

Egypt starts overhauling constitution
Quote:
CAIRO - Egypt's transition to democracy entered a critical phase Wednesday as a panel of legal experts began drafting constitutional amendments that could create the political system protesters have demanded - or simply lead to a disappointing remake of the old regime.

The country's interim military rulers have given a review committee 10 days to redraft six constitutional articles in an effort to ensure that national elections, expected in the fall, are fair.

The proposed changes will be submitted to voters through a referendum within three months - a daunting task in a country that for decades has held elections that were heavily rigged in favor of now-deposed President Hosni Mubarak.

The process will test the military leaders' commitment to steer the country toward true democracy. It also will show whether the plethora of activists who worked together online and on the streets to topple Mubarak can collaborate in the more arcane work of establishing a new political infrastructure for Egypt....



Hope that they keep on track. IMHO the military sould have included more of the opposition leaders on the panel.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #271 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I suggested that he is trapped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Trapped? Such a fate is a luxury not afforded to Presidents.

Trapped, like Saddam in the spiderhole? Hitler in the bunker, surrounded by the Red Army?

"Trapped" is a convenient excuse. I reject it and so should you. It's Obama's common refrain, that the problems he "inherited" were too great to overcome. It's the refuge to which all Obamapologists flee. It accomplishes nothing.

We are faced with significant problems that pose a threat to our survival. What has Obama proposed to do about it? Oh, he's trapped. Pass the cyanide.

Quote:
What did Bush give us?

So you're escaping to the comfortable refuge of "blame Bush." That's been played.

Since you asked though, Bush's ineptitude handed control of Congress to irresponsible Congressmen who spent like drunken sailors. Bush gave us Obama. I've been quite clear about that.

Quote:
Ohh and the difference between you and me is this:

I was all over Bush when he sucked. ... You on the other hand only seem to have displeasure with members of a certain party.

Have I now?

Prejudice is a deplorable quality. Yours is showing, "Fellowship."

In any event, the question stands:

Quote:
What has Obama done, ever, in his lifetime, to support the claim of "smartest guy in DC?"

Shall I expect you to support that assertion, or are you going to beat the "Bush wrecked this country" drum some more?
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post #272 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Trapped, like Saddam in the spiderhole? Hitler in the bunker, surrounded by the Red Army?

Really? Don't play stupid.
Quote:
"Trapped" is a convenient excuse. I reject it and so should you.

I am assessing why it is that he does not do more to reduce the debt at this time. I suspect and I could be wrong that it is due to him wishing to win re-election. This is evidence of his "smarts for himself" at the expense of the country arguably. Bush was also a wimp when it came time for his bid at his second term. As I mentioned he and the republicans created, passed and signed the largest unfunded entitlement in 40 years known of as the Rx Drug plan. I only mention the failings of Bush to question why now with Obama you are sooooo upset with our fiscal order. Did you care when Bush was president? I don't bring up Bush to "Blame bush for everything that Obama needs to be responsible for now I bring up Bush to temper your seemingly new found concern for fiscal sanity now in light of your harsh criticisms of Obama as a leader (which by the way you are completely entitled to raise and share) I am not talking you out of your assessment of Obama as I have NO reason to defend him. I simply find it funny when conservatives "find God" only when the "other guys" are in there and not when they have both the congress and the presidency.

This gets at the heart of my frustration with republicans. They talk a good game just as Obama but then don't do anything they claim they stand for on the fiscal front (at least not since 1994). They spend like drunken sailors as you (thankfully) admit. I voted for Obama hoping that a democrat president would get the complacent republicans back into a geared up and "in the game" mode of governing. I have to say that I have been less than impressed with the ramblings of the likes of Palin, Beck, etc. The Neocons have not changed and the tea party has been co-opted like a bad rented tuxedo.

God help our country. I could not tell you who I would think would make for a decent president at this time.

Quote:


Prejudice is a deplorable quality. Yours is showing, "Fellowship."

Save me the drama.

That is like the pot calling the kettle black.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #273 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I suggested that he is trapped.

What did Bush give us? He did indeed give us tax cuts but only for us to "STILL" wake up one day to the financial crisis which ( threatened the world as we know it ) as this was sold to us by all the experts, central bankers and other crooks.,,, Tax cuts or not. Credit default swaps, going from stricter regulations of requiring an 8 to 1 ratio to more lax requirements of 30 to 1 ratio of lending to assets on hand was not during the Obama admin.

Bush gave us the largest entitlement at the time with the RX drug plan trying to get re-elected. And what in God's name did Bush do to solve our long term sacred cow problems???????????? Eh? What the hell did he do????? Not a damn thing that's what.
Nor was Bush.

I don't feel the US has had a real leader since JFK.

JFK got in the way however.

Fellows

Ohh and the difference between you and me is this:

I was all over Bush when he sucked.

I too am starting to think that despite my thinking Barack Obama is a smart guy he is sucking at his Job as president.

I am consistent with my displeasure regarding our leaders.

You on the other hand only seem to have displeasure with members of a certain party.

Truth be known this country is taking hits from all political angles.

I have the guts to state that obvious truth. Do you?

Fellows

Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Trapped, like Saddam in the spiderhole? Hitler in the bunker, surrounded by the Red Army?

"Trapped" is a convenient excuse. I reject it and so should you. It's Obama's common refrain, that the problems he "inherited" were too great to overcome. It's the refuge to which all Obamapologists flee. It accomplishes nothing.

We are faced with significant problems that pose a threat to our survival. What has Obama proposed to do about it? Oh, he's trapped. Pass the cyanide.

So you're escaping to the comfortable refuge of "blame Bush." That's been played.

Since you asked though, Bush's ineptitude handed control of Congress to irresponsible Congressmen who spent like drunken sailors. Bush gave us Obama. I've been quite clear about that.

Have I now?

Prejudice is a deplorable quality. Yours is showing, "Fellowship."

In any event, the question stands:

Shall I expect you to support that assertion, or are you going to beat the "Bush wrecked this country" drum some more?

you two are surprisingly enough arguing with the wrong guys. After viewing both of your posts over time I am surprised to see Fellowship and John Galt tossing barbs at one another. You make similar points, but Fellowship is more about the compassion and Galt is more about the economics. Take a second look at each others other posts on this forum and see if your arguments and framing of the others comments are warranted. I think you both are making good points and with a few questions will work out that you are not as far apart on what you are saying as those two quotes might suggest.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #274 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

... I only mention the failings of Bush to question why now with Obama you are sooooo upset with our fiscal order. Did you care when Bush was president?

Of course I did. Bush campaigned on limited government, then implemented an unprecedented expansion of it. You're obviously not familiar with my many previous posts on the subject and I have no desire to reiterate them.

Quote:
I am assessing why it is that he does not do more to reduce the debt at this time. I suspect and I could be wrong that it is due to him wishing to win re-election.

It's been said the one thing every President wants is a second term. Well, Obama once claimed he'd rather be a "really good one-term President" than serve two terms with mediocrity. So where is the boldness? What is his vision? The guy is an inspirational milquetoast and an intellectual midget.

Again, I reject the "trapped" mentality. A leader inspires. He motivates. If Obama truly believes he's "trapped" then this simply demonstrates he's unworthy of the office. I learned enough about him before the election to realize this, unfortunately, millions of others were guilty of judging him solely on good looks, a winning smile, and a belief that he couldn't possibly be any worse than GWB. May we not be fooled again.

For all of the distasteful criticism he's piled on the previous administration, Obama has done nothing to right its wrongs, and even compounded those errors with more of his own. He defended Obamacare with pathetic displays of white-coated doctors and ridiculous anecdotes of people dropping dead for lack of proper insurance papers, while he allowed Congress to run amok with our economic future. He's a disgrace.

Enough with Bush. It's grown tiresome. I'm still waiting for your defense of Obama's alleged superior intellect.
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post #275 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

... Fellowship is more about the compassion and Galt is more about the economics.

Compassion alone doesn't feed anyone, doesn't clothe anyone, won't keep them warm, or heal them of disease. It doesn't educate anyone. It won't lift them from privation.

Compassion requires more than "feeling good". Compassion is nothing without the means to act upon it.

Prosperity requires sound economic principles. Sound economic principles require the exercise of free will. Prosperity enables compassion.
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post #276 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Compassion alone doesn't feed anyone, doesn't clothe anyone, won't keep them warm, or heal them of disease. It doesn't educate anyone. It won't lift them from privation.

Compassion requires more than "feeling good". Compassion is nothing without the means to act upon it.

Prosperity requires sound economic principles. Sound economic principles require the exercise of free will. Prosperity enables compassion.

The same can be said about prosperity as well. Without compassion, or a human face, it is a hollow accomplishment. There has to be a proper joining of the two that works for the betterment of all involved. I just don't think you guys disagree as much as you are right here. I have seen both of your posts and think you agree on many different levels and the heat of this argument is clouding that. I could be wrong, but I don't believe I am.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #277 of 289
Rights group alleges new evidence of detainee abuse by Egypt military
Quote:
[JURIST] Amnesty International (AI) on Thursday released a report asserting new evidence that the the Supreme Military Council of Egypt has been torturing protester-detainees. Through various detainee accounts, AI stated that individuals were tortured "to intimidate protesters and to obtain information about plans for the protests." In addition, protesters contend that they were told to confess that they were trained by the Israeli or Iranian governments. AI's director for the Middle East and North Africa Malcolm Smart stated, "The Egyptian military authorities have committed publicly to creating a climate of freedom and democracy after so many years of state repression. Now they must match their words with direct and immediate action." Last week, Human Rights Watch (HRW) published similar concerns, specifically about the detention of journalists, human rights activists, and protesters. UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay [official profile] has also called on Egyptian authorities to immediately release lawyers, journalists and human rights activists who have been arrested and suggested that violence against protesters has been planned. The AI report demands immediate disclosure of the names and whereabouts of all detainees, and for either official charges to be drawn against them, or their prompt release.

Earlier this week the Supreme Council appointed a panel of judges to amend Egypt's constitution [text] prior to public referendum. This decision was part of the transition plan put in place by ousted president Hosni Mubarak before leaving office earlier this month. Last week the military pledged to lift the emergency laws that have been in place since Mubarak assumed power. Prior to Mubarak's resignation, Egypt's government had reached out to various opposition leaders in the wake of demonstrations that swept the country. Among those in the opposition that have been approached are the Muslim Brotherhood, the oldest and largest Islamic political group in the world. According to some commentators, the unrest in Egypt is closely related to the recent civil unrest in Tunisia that culminated last month with the resignation of President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #278 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

you agree on many different levels and the heat of this argument is clouding that.

Shame the heat is nothing to do with the topic and once again - as all things do - has spiralled back to a discussion of the good ole US of A.

Whole Middle East overthrowing their rulers country by country? Great! Let's discuss the US finances !!!

Strangely in way the attitude is ON TOPIC. If one has the ears to hear.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #279 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Shame the heat is nothing to do with the topic and once again - as all things do - has spiralled back to a discussion of the good ole US of A.

Whole Middle East overthrowing their rulers country by country? Great! Let's discuss the US finances !!!

Strangely in way the attitude is ON TOPIC. If one has the ears to hear.

Strangely enough though, since this is just a discussion board and is not actually deciding policy or the fate of such actions I doubt anyone would ever be able to control that tendency to run off topic. Keep up the good fight man.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #280 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Strangely enough though, since this is just a discussion board and is not actually deciding policy or the fate of such actions I doubt anyone would ever be able to control that tendency to run off topic. Keep up the good fight man.

Don't get me wrong - I am not judging or trying to control. I merely observe and note. In an objective and unbiased analytical fashion. It is pure objectivity.....

Which is why when later I am accused of 'sweeping generalisations' or some form of bias no-one really means it or minds at all....they know subconsciously that I speak the truth based on observation and evidence.

Objective facts.

They can hurt but not even the most died-in-the-wool wingnut can deny them.

I am a camera - a mirror if you will. Perhaps some do not like the photographic record or the hideous visage thus reflected but they merely rage against themselves and the measure they fail to live up to immortalized in concrete record.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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