Originally Posted by sammi jo
5? How about a parliamentary style government? (....with real elections, verifiable paper ballots and no voting machines of course). Could the people of Egypt deal with this? Why not?
Yes...sorry...I should have been more clear. A parliamentary democracy is the ONLY possible outcome of this situation I was taking that for granted.
What I was meaning was the result
of those elections.
The people of Egypt aren;t stupid - they know that the US and Israel would never recognize any democratically elected government that they chose if it DID NOT kow-tow to the US and Israel.
That is why Mubarak has held on to power for decades.
Look what happened when people fairly and democratically elected Hamas.
Such has existed in the past in a number of mid east nations, for example in Iran under Dr. Mossadegh in the 1950s. Unfortunately for Iran and the entire middle east, the US was unable to deal with *that* in a civilized fashion, so it was overthrown and a puppet thug was installed.
Exactly my point above.... but now people are wiser. So they may not even go the democratic route. They may just install the people they think can walk a tightrope between freedom for the people and freedom FROM the US.
Could the US deal with true Egyptian (or other Middle Eastern) democracy
....on the terms of the PEOPLE of those nations, rather than merely a phony version (such as Iraq and Afghanistan), which only serves to further any US empire-building/foreign policy aims, and corporate/vested interests of course?
Is there hope for the Middle East? Can democracy and Islam co-exist? Why ever not?
Actually it always has - the Islamists are in many ways actually on the payroll of the West. Sometimes literally.
Hamas was created by the Israelis for example for exactly the purpose of fomenting dissent but it went rogue. Same with bin Laden and the US. And Saddam. And on and on and on.....
So if you take the Islamists out of the picture then you have just the people - and they are the same as people anywhere.
In short: the reason democracy has not yet worked in the Middle East (and it does not have to be democracy in the full sense: Morocco and Jordan do ok as monarchies) and the reason that Islam has not accepted it is because Israel and the US have not allowed this to happen.
It is the last thing they want. Or else they would have done it.....they have no problem with on-side Salafis and Wahabs like Dubai and Saudi becoming multi-billionaires playgrounds.
Because there is no threat there: all sides are worshipping the same God: money.
Other places in the Middle East they have a different God.
If the mid east people were allowed self determination without being under external heavy manners (read "carpet of bombs"), the Mid East might (might) manage a parallel of what has happened recently in many South American nations. (Obviously the two sets of cultures and prevailing faiths have many differences, but we're dealing with human beings here... and true proportional representative democracy can work anywhere, given a chance). But, yet again, could the US handle it, properly, knowing that a large chunk of the material whiuch runs the US infrastructure lies underneath *their* sand? Islam is a faith, whereas democracy is a method allowing the people to be represented in the way the nation is run, in practical, rather than spiritual terms. I am sure the Middle Eastern people. in general, can see the difference., and are quite capable of embracing it.
I don't think the US could handle it.
The only way it's going to work is an inner Islamic revolution (and I believe this is in the post) where youth take power of the inner workings of Islam from reactionary clerics. Kind of like the Jesus Freaks in the 60s....ex-hippies that got into Jesus.
It's happening but not in the Middle East - this is one area where America (I mean American Muslims - and Canadian) hace to lead and show the ME the way. And it is happening.
So I think a dual-revolution is the only thing that can work:
1) Muslims in the ME ousting the corrupt govt and changing the political landscape
2) Muslims in the US and Canada transforming and updating Islam for the 21st century
3) Resulting in a synthesis that will change the whole game and render the WOT, Islamists, Winger-hawks and Islamophobes ll null and void.
It's happening but might take up to 10 years imo but it's started on all levels.
There are some seriously cool things happening in US Islamic society but they will NEVER let you hear of it till it goes mainstream.
There is the $multi TRILLION issue.