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Apple denies claim that Sony Reader, Kindle in danger on iOS App Store - Page 5

post #161 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by akf2000 View Post

This is bullshit. If it makes Kindle books 30% more expensive I'm going to go totally Cambodia.

When I sell products through Amazon or eBay, they definitely take their cut. This is no different.
post #162 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanner View Post

When I sell products through Amazon or eBay, they definitely take their cut. This is no different.

Amazon is not selling books through Apple Store
post #163 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Something did happen - Amazon last quarter started selling more Kindle books than paperback for the first time ever.

The question is, what proportion of those sales came from the iPad?

C.
post #164 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanner View Post

When I sell products through Amazon or eBay, they definitely take their cut. This is no different.

You sell products through Amazon, or eBay and they take their cut because they are providing a service, which involves cataloging and distribution, credit card fees etc.

Amazon can do all that. They dont need Apple. They dont need the App Store.

How do we know this.

we know this, because on Kindle.app ( on all devices) they handle your credit card, the digital storage, the distribution, the download costs and everything else when you are redirected to their website.

How will this change with in-app purchasing?

It wont.

There will be an extra step. Kindle will be forced to use Apple's in-app purchasing. All that means is that the app presents a dialog ( using a framework called storekit) and takes the users details. StoreKit then tells the kindle app whether the transaction failed, succeeded, or was canceled.

It helps with no UI.

Then the Kindle app has to call their webservice to talk to the server which handles the thedigital storage, the distribution, the download costs and everything else. It downloads from Amazon's server.

The 30% is for the credit card transaction. The app store stores no content. It doesnt own this content to sell. It downloads no content. That happens from Amazon's servers. It does some credit card transactions which Amazon are pretty good at. ( And if Apple want to make it seamless for Kindle and everybody else so we have one password for everything they can port KeyChain to iOS).

This is theft. Pure and simple.

The cost, if passed onto the iPad user ( and Amazon might as well) will be 43% extra.

Good luck with that one.
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post #165 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Apple wants to provide the best experience for customers.
Being redirected to a web page to finish your purchase is not a great experience.

Kindle could easily embed their store in the app, or (less easily) re-do the store UI in-app as native code and handle their own credit card transactions. That is banned under App Store rules.
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post #166 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Amazon can do all that. They dont need Apple. They dont need the App Store.

Calm down dear.

Of course they don't need any sales at all.

But they very much like the additional sales they are getting from Apple devices.

So, how much is that worth to Amazon?


C.
post #167 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The app store on the iPad is creating tens of millions of Kindle sales for Amazon.

How much is that worth to Amazon?

a) Zero?
b) Nothing.
c) Not a penny
d) A tidy sum

I'd argue that Apple is certainly entitled to something. And of course, having control of the platform means that Apple is entitled to demand it.

Is Apple entitled to 30% of the retail value?
Nope. No way. That would be unsustainable. It would leave Apple making more money from a sale than Amazon.

But who said anything about 30%?

This, ladies and gentlemen, is called a negotiating position.

It's not about yay, or nay. It's about how much.

C.

This post deserves repeating.
I'm going with "d" as my answer.
post #168 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

Apple makes money by selling the devices. It is Apple's job to make the value proposition as appealing as possible in order to be able sell as many of those devices (at a profit) as possible.

Simple put:

High value/Low price = High sales
Low value/High price = Low sales

Apple is selling a computing device. The more things it can do, the higher its value is to the buyer of that device. More apps = Higher value.

The more Apple chases away or raises the costs of using an app, the lower the value of the device becomes, and the more it will hurt sales.


What you fail to understand is, Apple will do what APPLE think is the best value proposition for all parties involved, not you the consumer, not Amazon/Sony the providers, but APPLE. You may find it strange, or believe it's unsustainable in the long term, but that doesn't mean Apple is wrong. You don't know how Amazon and Sony and etc. operate, and what their profit margins are, and also what incentives they might come up to minimize impact of this change, so you have no idea what they will do in the future.
post #169 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The app store on the iPad is creating tens of millions of Kindle sales.... I'd argue that Apple is certainly entitled to something. And of course, having control of the platform means that Apple is entitled to demand it.

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

I would never have bought an Ipad (actually two) if it hadn't been for the kindle reader.

I am looking forward to ipad2, but if the kindle reader is affected by this nonsense, then I will start looking at some other brand of tablet.

Why should apple get any direct benefit from someone's app being popular? Apple gets hardware sales out of the deal. You are allowing yourself to be brainwashed into believing that Apple has some moral right to continuous revenue streams for everything.
post #170 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

What you fail to understand is, Apple will do what APPLE think is the best value proposition for all parties involved, not you the consumer, not Amazon/Sony the providers, but APPLE.

If Apple changes the value proposition of their product to the point where customers don't think it's worth spending $XXX on, then they won't buy it. That hurts Apple too. That's how the free market works.
post #171 of 399
Bad Apple rears it's very ugly head again. So if I understand this correctly, the Kindle app will be required to give the user two options - buy from the Amazon web page at Amazon prices, or buy from an in-app store with 30% higher prices just so Apple can steal some money from something which doesn't concern them in the slightest.

It's nauseating stuff and I really hope some sort of regulatory body steps in and gives Apple a thoroughly good slapping for it. Microsoft wouldn't be able to behave like this anymore so Apple shouldn't be allowed to either. Play fair Apple, once an iPad is sold it belongs to the user, not to you. So keep your filthy hands off it.
post #172 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Calm down dear.

Of course they don't need any sales at all.

But they very much like the additional sales they are getting from Apple devices.

So, how much is that worth to Amazon?

It seems I need to repeat the question:

Is Amazon capable of distributing the same volume of that Kindle app through their own systems without involving Apple at all? Why or why not?
post #173 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

I would never have bought an Ipad (actually two) if it hadn't been for the kindle reader.

I am looking forward to ipad2, but if the kindle reader is affected by this nonsense, then I will start looking at some other brand of tablet.

Why should apple get any direct benefit from someone's app being popular? Apple gets hardware sales out of the deal. You are allowing yourself to be brainwashed into believing that Apple has some moral right to continuous revenue streams for everything.



But you aren't going to be affected, unless Amazon choose to withdraw it.

Apple isn't going to get anything, if Amazon can find incentive for customers to continue use their own web store front.

If people choose to use in-app payment system for some reason, it's still the choice of consumer. Which is actually the great thing, is it not?
post #174 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Calm down dear.

Of course they don't need any sales at all.

But they very much like the additional sales they are getting from Apple devices.

So, how much is that worth to Amazon?


C.

That's not the point being made. Kindle already have a successful Kindle App. All the purchasing is done externally from the App. Why does Apple now need to be involved in this process? Perhaps more importantly, why are the now suddenly construing the full ambit of the clause in question?

The fact they haven't exercised their rights under the agreement is interesting, if the right was there all along (Apple are assuming it must have been because they haven't changed the agreement, but have stated they are enforcing it). At what point can a person who has entered a contract with Apple say: you have never relied on this clause before, and you haven't for some time. Why are you now enforcing the contract after letting innumerate apps on the apps store which are no longer (and arguably, never) were compliant with the developer agreement? At what stage can a developer claim an estoppel on Apple?
post #175 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

If Apple changes the value proposition of their product to the point where customers don't think it's worth spending $XXX on, then they won't buy it. That hurts Apple too. That's how the free market works.

When sales figure reflects that, then Apple will change course. If they can't change fast enough, they go back been the Apple of the 90's. That's how free market works.

As for now, if sony/Amazon wants to be on a popular platform, they have to pay. That's how free market works too.
post #176 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post

Why should apple get any direct benefit from someone's app being popular? Apple gets hardware sales out of the deal. You are allowing yourself to be brainwashed into believing that Apple has some moral right to continuous revenue streams for everything.

Why should Sony benefit from someone else's game being popular?
How about Microsoft and XBox games?
How about Amazon and it's Kindle device being closed to all, and allowing Amazon to profit from other people's successful books.

Were you asleep, or did you not notice that this is how all electronics companies make money these days?

C.
post #177 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

Is Amazon capable of distributing the same volume of that Kindle app through their own systems without involving Apple at all? Why or why not?

Yes, Amazon can distribute ALL the content on iTunes (apps, music, video) withouth any problem
post #178 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

You're missing the point. When you buy a kindle book, you're not Apple's customer, you're Amazon's. Imagine buying an iPad, knowing how wonderful it is that you can buy your books through Amazon's vast library and enjoy reading them on your device, and suddenly that application changes dramatically so that only select books that have been authorized to use Apple's in-app purchase can be allowed, you might find you are now unable to read most of your library. Or worse, what if Apple demanded all or nothing, and suddenly the Kindle application disappeared. You would be upset, no?

That's the type of situation we could find ourselves in if we take this statement from Apple at face value.

Oh Amazon will certainly withdraw Kindle if the 30% level is maintained. They can sell on many devices, rather than one with no margins for them unless they increase costs by 43%.

(we may get new pricing models tomorrow).
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post #179 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

It's nauseating stuff and I really hope some sort of regulatory body steps in and gives Apple a thoroughly good slapping for it. Microsoft wouldn't be able to behave like this anymore so Apple shouldn't be allowed to either. Play fair Apple, once an iPad is sold it belongs to the user, not to you. So keep your filthy hands off it.

Is anyone forcing you to use App store? For god sake, jailbreak if you have to.
post #180 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

... So if I understand this correctly, the Kindle app will be required to give the user two options - buy from the Amazon web page at Amazon prices, or buy from an in-app store with 30% higher prices ...

You don't understand this correctly. As usual, you have it wrong. (It happens so often with you, one might almost think it was intentional.) No one is dictating to Amazon or Sony or Barnes & Noble that they must charge more for books bought through in-app purchasing.
post #181 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

But you aren't going to be affected, unless Amazon choose to withdraw it.

Apple isn't going to get anything, if Amazon can find incentive for customers to continue use their own web store front.

If people choose to use in-app payment system for some reason, it's still the choice of consumer. Which is actually the great thing, is it not?

And like I said, if Apple decides it doesn't want to confuse the idiot consumer by allowing a price differential between in-app and external purchases, then ALL prices will go up. They have to, as Apple is charging 30% for what is essentially a payment service.

I'm kind of keen on that idea. Are you?
post #182 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

It seems I need to repeat the question:

Is Amazon capable of distributing the same volume of that Kindle app through their own systems without involving Apple at all? Why or why not?

They are not capable of delivering content into the curated part of the iPad.
Not without Apple's consent.

Just as Apple are not capable of delivering iBooks onto the Kindle reader without Amazon's cooperation.

C.
post #183 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Why should Sony benefit from someone else's game being popular?
How about Microsoft and XBox games?
How about Amazon and it's Kindle device being closed to all, and allowing Amazon to profit from other people's successful books.

Were you asleep, or did you not notice that this is how all electronics companies make money these days?

C.

Apple is gaining by the popularity of the Kindle app. Amazon has given them an app which was developed for free, and handles downloads of the biggest library of digital e-books in the world. A position not likely to be challenged anytime soon. This has driven hardware sales.

If Amazon removes that app, the people buying tablets primarily as an e-book reader with benefits will flee the platform.
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post #184 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

And like I said, if Apple decides it doesn't want to confuse the idiot consumer by allowing a price differential between in-app and external purchases, then ALL prices will go up. They have to, as Apple is charging 30% for what is essentially a payment service.

I'm kind of keen on that idea. Are you?

It's not just a payment service, it's easy access to a large and growing customer base. Anyway, there are plenty of methods to get your kindle books on an iPad if you want to avoid app store. If Amazon can't make that distinct to the customers, then they are too stupid to deserve that 30% anyway.
post #185 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

If Amazon removes that app, the people buying tablets primarily as an e-book reader with benefits will flee the platform.

Calm down!
Amazon is not going to shut down all those potential book sales. And Apple certainly does not want to irritate its user base.

This is a negotiation. And a middle ground will be found. The end consumer will not notice any difference. Apart from a slightly improved purchasing experience.

C.
post #186 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Calm down dear.

Of course they don't need any sales at all.

But they very much like the additional sales they are getting from Apple devices.

So, how much is that worth to Amazon?


C.

Its worth a lot more to Apple. I wouldn't have an iPad, and I wont have another one, if Kindle is on an Android tablet and not on the iPad. Thats because I own 35 books on the Kindle app. I might think about an Android phone as well ( although I rarely use the phone to read for obvious reasons).

And I have bought one non-Apple electronic product from a competitor in 15 years. And that was a cheap dell for games.

For that reason I think the 30% will not stand. Apple probably told their app testing teams to reject apps without app purchasing without telling them the new price structures. Thats for tomorrow's event.

If I am wrong, sell AAPL. Its as high as it is going to get.
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post #187 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

When sales figure reflects that, then Apple will change course. If they can't change fast enough, they go back been the Apple of the 90's. That's how free market works.

Apple doesn't need to wait for the sales figures. All they have to do is look at the reaction here.

Quote:
As for now, if sony/Amazon wants to be on a popular platform, they have to pay. That's how free market works too.

That sounds suspiciously like "if you want to do business in our neighborhood, you'll need to pay for our protection services."

Apple deserves to be paid only for the services which they actually provide to those who choose to use those services. Amazon, Sony, and many others do not need Apple's processing services and have chosen not to make use of them.
post #188 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by lggeek View Post

Apple is becoming abusive with their position , just because you buy a record player from someone doesn't mean they can say you can't play any records not bought from us. It's time for the federal government to look into Apple's practice with the app store and their effort to squash any alternative stores ( Cydia).

Let's put it another way.
"Microsoft has started enforcing a rule that any program that has access to a web sale MUST sell the items through Microsoft TakeOurCut, arguing the sale is only made thanks to its Windows Operating System."
AppleBoyz "ugh, Microsoft sucks, that's a scandal".
Same situation with Apple... Apple boyz: great, wonderful, great service. LOL.

Anyway, Apple will have to desist eventually, there is no way the Feds won't get in play now...
Think about it, they're in effect requiring companies to spend money implementing a feature those companies DO NOT need (since they have web stores), in order to make more money for Apple. Any company complying with these rules should be immediately hit with a lawsuit from their own shareholders for mismanagement...

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #189 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

I would never have bought an Ipad (actually two) if it hadn't been for the kindle reader.

I am looking forward to ipad2, but if the kindle reader is affected by this nonsense, then I will start looking at some other brand of tablet.

Why should apple get any direct benefit from someone's app being popular? Apple gets hardware sales out of the deal. You are allowing yourself to be brainwashed into believing that Apple has some moral right to continuous revenue streams for everything.

Carnaphage is right, but you are too except for the first sentence and last paragraph. If apples policies drive customers to the competition, that's business. If masses of people switch apple will likely have to change or suffer the consequences.
post #190 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Do you feel its fair for Amazon and B&N to directly profit from the App Store while contributing nothing back to the App Store?

This is besides the point. The App Store is the only way to get an app onto apple's iOS devices. If you could buy an app from a 3rd party and put it on your iOS device then it wouldn't effect apple... they wouldn't have store it, market for it, etc. But you cannot install anything other then App Store apps on iOS. So by definition, EVERYTHING goes through apple, even if apple has nothing to do with it (eg the Sony store).

Besides, if you make your app free then why is the app profiting from the app store, other then the storage on apple's servers? Is overhead really worth 30%?

Anyway, so long as apple doesn't kill VIEWING stuff from 3rd party stores on iOS, then I don't think it matters all that much. If you have bought or you are buying stuff from amazon then likely you have a kindle already, and same goes for sony. So long as you can view your bought stuff on iOS (no matter where you bought it from) then it doesn't matter for most people.
post #191 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

That sounds suspiciously like "if you want to do business in our neighborhood, you'll need to pay for our protection services."

Actually, that's even worse. That's selling an inexistent service by force: locking the device up and making people pay for the right to code for it was bad, but it's at least backed up by the decisive security it enforces. so, fine. Taking a cut on any sale that goes through it starts getting overboard.

It's about the same as saying that Nikon should have a cut on any picture taken with a Nikon camera...

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #192 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

It's not just a payment service, it's easy access to a large and growing customer base.

They already have access to that customer base by virtue of the App itself.

Quote:
Anyway, there are plenty of methods to get your kindle books on an iPad if you want to avoid app store. If Amazon can't make that distinct to the customers, then they are too stupid to deserve that 30% anyway.

I quite like the idea of a dialog box in the Sony eReader App:

"We have to give you the option to buy this book through In App Purchasing. It will cost $15 that way. Otherwise, you can go to our website and buy it for $9
[In-App Purchase] [Sony.com website]"

I think that would make it distinct enough.
post #193 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanner View Post

When I sell products through Amazon or eBay, they definitely take their cut. This is no different.

This is way different. It's like if Firefox took a cut on products you sell through Amazon.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #194 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Calm down!
Amazon is not going to shut down all those potential book sales. And Apple certainly does not want to irritate its user base.

This is a negotiation. And a middle ground will be found. The end consumer will not notice any difference. Apart from a slightly improved purchasing experience.

C.

It might be a negotiation, but a better way to negotiate would be to mention to devs - in a press release - that this was going to happen rather than start to fail app submissions without changing the guidelines ( and later when that blows up claiming that you have changed the guidelines when nothing changed).

I mean, this is total incompetence if nothing else.

Also, cut out the calm down nonsense. I am typing in cold blood. Apple have finally pissed me off, if this 30% fee holds I leave the platform for good. I say that, calmly.
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post #195 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

For that reason I think the 30% will not stand.

Why does everyone keep going on about 30%?

I suspect for an entity like Amazon, shoving hundreds of millions of dollars of product, Apple would be happy with a much lower percentage.

This is the beginning of an entirely new chapter in print publishing. And Apple needs to get their house in order.

C.
post #196 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

I mean, this is total incompetence if nothing else.

It's just a negotiation.

Business is war.

C.
post #197 of 399
Just to throw this in there. Amazon's margins are very very low.

from RTE.


The company posted a slight dip in operating profit for the Christmas fourth quarter as revenues rose 36%, signaling the high cost of keeping competitive in the highly promotional retail environment. Fourth-quarter operating margin declined to 3.7% from 5% a year earlier.

Digital books have better margins, but they are cheap for a reason.

Clearly Amazon cant afford this.
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post #198 of 399
I don't know why everyone is upset! This is good for users. It gives choice.. isn't that what we always hear.. choice?!
As a user you have the choice to buy from the App using your iTunes account OR through the developers website (outside the apps). It is not my problem as a user who take that 30% cut. If Amazon, Sony, B&N, and other decided to charge 30% more for In-App purchase then be it. I still have the choice of buying out of the App.
post #199 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

Is anyone forcing you to use App store? For god sake, jailbreak if you have to.

Illegal? Anyway, clearly breaks your warranty, so your solution is not one.

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post #200 of 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Why does everyone keep going on about 30%?

I suspect for an entity like Amazon, shoving hundreds of millions of dollars of product, Apple would be happy with a much lower percentage.

This is the beginning of an entirely new chapter in print publishing. And Apple needs to get their house in order.

C.

Oh lets see. We are going on about the 30% because that is what Apple now charges. The rest is speculation.

Even if Apple change that figure tomorrow this is still an unholy cockup. Apps have been rejected all week based on these new guidelines which were never broadcast to anyone nor in fact was the wording even changed, and a major developer - Sony - has pulled it's app already.

A circus. Muppets. The best executing company in the World better get it's app store submission process under control, properly documented, transparent and fair.
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