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Nokia ditches Symbian, embraces Microsoft Windows Phone for new handsets - Page 6

post #201 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I don't understand what you are saying.

It is simply, you claimed Nokia was spending some $4 billion on software R&D alone. I said, and provided proof, no, you are wrong, that figure also includes NSN.

It is simple, the figure you provided was wrong. Even the chart you provided proved you were wrong.
post #202 of 266
thank you
good topic

برامج
post #203 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

It is simply, you claimed Nokia was spending some $4 billion on software R&D alone. I said, and provided proof, no, you are wrong, that figure also includes NSN.

It is simple, the figure you provided was wrong. Even the chart you provided proved you were wrong.

Oh you have your underwear in a bunch about that!

You are 100% correct! Nokia's gigantic and profligate R&D spend goes on more than just Symbian.

Symbian "only" requires 6200 people in creating the worst user experience in the world. That's just the largest single engineering investment within Nokia.

It also goes on a ridiculous number of SKUs.

And a network company that has been a constant loss maker.


C.
post #204 of 266
So obviously the entire mobile computing area is in a massive stage of upheaval, and it's basically impossible to say anything for sure as all we have to go off are rumours and educated guesses. You've covered a bunch of topics so I'll just comment on a few.


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

When I say they don't have a plan, it's because all they have is a negative plan. Ballmer said that they would NOT put WP7 on a tablet. If you regard that as a plan, then good luck to them.

As interesting as it would be to see a consumer Zune or Xbox branded WP7/ARM tablet from Microsoft I don't think that would be a good plan, as you've covered yourself....

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But then, MS does have a very big problem which perhaps they recognize. Unlike Apple, with a Unix based iOS, and Google and HP, with a Linux distro, and now RIM, with QNX, all very powerful OS's, MS has CE as the basis of WP7, which is a much simpler phone/embedded OS.

That's my understanding as well. Which brings the next point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's that WP7 likely can't compete as a full powered tablet OS, considering where tablets are headed.

I think this is unfortunately the case. CE is not scalable and it isn't as "componentized" as the Windows 7/Server 2008 R2 code base. It's a testament to the designers and engineers at Microsoft that they have been able to make something as great as WP7 on the CE code base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Their plan to continue to push Windows as a tablet OS is not a plan to integrate smart phones and tablets, which we both agree is required. That's not a plan. It's a continued refusal to recognize that what they're doing isn't working.

This is where we start to diverge.

As I've mentioned Windows 7 is already a very "componentized" OS. By that I mean a lot of features/functionality can be removed or replaced without affecting other features/functionality. A "minimum" W7e installation only requires 300MB or HDD and about 80MB/RAM... and that's supporting all base Windows features.

If they required all apps to be Silverlight/XNA (and thus remove a lot of the legacy support) they could potentially cut this down even more.

With that in mind there is nothing wrong with scaling Windows 8 down to a tablet (or even phone) OS. It's actually not that far removed from what Apple have done (very successfully) with OSX/iOS.

I don't see this as hurting integration between phone and tablet as Microsoft uses the cloud for integration of data and the Silverlight CLR as the application integration platform between devices (i.e. it doesn't really matter what OS or hardware a device has if it's running the same Silverlight CLR).

If I had to guess today (and I tend to change my mind as each new piece of information becomes available ) I would have to say that Windows 8 will come in multiple flavours:

* W8e/ARM/Tablet UI - No native/legacy support - Silverlight/XNA only via App Store. Much like the current iPad.

* W8/x86/Tablet+Standard UI - Silverlight/XNA via App Store as well as native/legacy via PInkoke support in Silverlight 5. Can switch between tablet UI and standard UI.




Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

...where tablets are headed.

Now that is the big question. Where are they headed?

A major part of the iPad's success is because of its simplicity, however I hear a lot of people that think the iPad will eventually scale up to OSX and the two might even merge.

Yet trying to force a touch UI into a full desktop/laptop is going to lead to the same problems as Microsoft have trying to force a desktop/laptop UI into a touch device.

I'm really not sure where Apple will land on this.

I think Microsoft will support the option of a Touch only UI or both standard Windows and a touch UI (as outlined above) or failing that just the combined touch/standard version. I don't think they would release their version of the iPad and nothing else.

Google I'm much more confident will look to combine the two as there is no benefit for them to sell you multiple devices. Look for Google to implement - as standard Android feature - a ChomeOS based second UI when the phone/tablet is docked.

I've already written way to much so I'm going to leave it at that.
post #205 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Oh you have your underwear in a bunch about that!

You are 100% correct! Nokia's gigantic and profligate R&D spend goes on more than just Symbian.

Symbian "only" requires 6200 people in creating the worst user experience in the world. That's just the largest single engineering investment within Nokia.

It also goes on a ridiculous number of SKUs.

And a network company that has been a constant loss maker.


C.

You're wasting your time with that guy.

He thinks Intel helped develop MeeGo out of charity to humanity and that they had no intention of selling Atom cpus into the smart phone market.
post #206 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Now that is the big question. Where are they headed?

They are not headed towards a recreating a desktop-like experience.

Back when personal computers were being created, much of the thinking was that they would move towards the type of applications we used to see on mainframes. Because that was the only frame of reference that people had for computers.

They were wrong.

My take...

The desktop will move into a niche. Serving only those applications which need a large screen / keyboard and very exacting performance characteristics.

The tablet moves to fulfil most personal computing needs. Communication, entertainment.

The unique element of the tablet is its ability it to transform itself into a purpose built device for specific functions.

I recently went into a car dealership. Every agent had a desk with a PC. They didn't need a desktop computer. They were all running a front-end to the dealership's database. Every one of those PCs could be replaced by a tablet and an app and a server sitting in a back office somewhere.

My guess is that at least 40% of PCs that are deployed in business will be replaced by tablet-like devices in the next 10 years.

Microsoft don't seem well prepared for this transition.

C.
post #207 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Microsoft don't seem well prepared for this transition.

C.

Depends on your definition of well prepared. They have a more or less fully baked multitouch API built into Win7 in part due to the rather derided MS Surface.

So in your car dealer example a win7 app can be updated today to responds to WM_TOUCH and WM_GESTURE events. WPF 4 user interface elements are touch capable for multi-touch manipulation (like pan, rotate, pinch and zoom).

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/gg465116

They have more baked into Win7 than Apple currently has with OS X.

I think their current unpreparedness comes from an assumption that Intel would be more competitive in the tablet market at this point. Ooops. Hence the ARM port for Windows.
post #208 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Depends on your definition of well prepared. They have a more or less fully baked multitouch API built into Win7 in part due to the rather derided MS Surface.

So in your car dealer example a win7 app can be updated today to responds to WM_TOUCH and WM_GESTURE events. WPF 4 user interface elements are touch capable for multi-touch manipulation (like pan, rotate, pinch and zoom).

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/gg465116

They have more baked into Win7 than Apple currently has with OS X.

I think their current unpreparedness comes from an assumption that Intel would be more competitive in the tablet market at this point. Ooops. Hence the ARM port for Windows.

I think the Microsoft's unpreparedness is not about engineering.
It's about a reluctance to saw away at the branch they've been sitting on for 20 years.

C.
post #209 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

....They have more baked into Win7 than Apple currently has with OS X.
.

Thats a meaningless comparison because Apple aren't using OSX on tablets. They use iOS as you know.

What point are you trying to make?
post #210 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post



Now that is the big question. Where are they headed?

A major part of the iPad's success is because of its simplicity, however I hear a lot of people that think the iPad will eventually scale up to OSX and the two might even merge.

This is a layman's view of the OS. There is one app(lication) running on OS X - the Finder, which would differentiate it from an IOS device, which instead would run Springboard.

To the user thats a big deal, to OS devs and application devs, it isn't.
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post #211 of 266
To be technical here, all that Apple has to do to make iOS and OS X merge is

1) rename the UKit to Appkit, or vice versa.
2) Add touch events, or click events, depending on which way you went.

That is not a huge engineering effort.
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post #212 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

To be technical here, all that Apple has to do to make iOS and OS X merge is

1) rename the UKit to Appkit, or vice versa.
2) Add touch events, or click events, depending on which way you went.

That is not a huge engineering effort.

Apple put a lot of effort into diverging this software technology.
Why on Earth would it want to undo that work and converge them again?

C.
post #213 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Here's a picture of that "tablet".



You seem to imply that's a laptop and not a tablet that's docked to a keyboard. I could post this in response:



Quote:
Acer also sells an Android tablet.

So? Your statement was:

"Every major Windows PC manufacturer has abandoned Microsoft's tablet strategy."

Acer hasn't abandoned Win7 tablets if they are producing new models.

Quote:
Not for sale yet.

So? Dell hasn't abandoned Win7 tablets if they are announcing new models.

Quote:
Here it is.
<image deleted>

Asus are also doing an Android tablet.

Again, so? That Asus has a win7 tablet means that they have not abandoned MS's tablet strategy.

Quote:
So yes, some OEMs are tentativly releasing some tablet-like devices. But the fact that they are all offering an alternative OS says something.

Not "some OEMs" but the major ones. HP has one too but we can count them out.

Quote:
It says, "we are not convinced that Windows 7 makes a good tablet OS."

We aren't convinced is a far cry from

"Every major Windows PC manufacturer has abandoned Microsoft's tablet strategy."

Quote:
Microsoft has not convinced any manufacturer to exclusively back its Windows tablet software.

10 yard penalty. Illegal movement of goalposts. Still 4th down.

Quote:
I don't think people buying tablets are doing so to run office productivity applications. The tablet is really the first type of personal computer which didn't have office equipment in its DNA.

Top Grossing iPad apps:

#2 Pages
#4 Keynote
#6 Numbers
#8 QuickOffice

If you eliminate the games category you're left with a bunch of office productivity apps as the iPad top grossing apps...

In terms of top downloads

#4 Pages
#7 Penultimate
#13 Keynote
#14 Numbers
#16 GoodReader
#26 Notes Plus
#28 PrintCentral
#30 QuickOffice

Again, if you eliminate games you're pretty much left with a bunch of office productivity apps and a scattering of others.

This puts MS in pretty good position given that they have MS Office and XBox to draw on.
post #214 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I think the Microsoft's unpreparedness is not about engineering.
It's about a reluctance to saw away at the branch they've been sitting on for 20 years.

C.

You mean they're following Apple and not dumping OSX in favor of a mobile OS?

Arguably WinCE isn't a horrible foundation either and my preferred one. However, applying the WP7 UI design for a customized Win7 tablet is arguably better.
post #215 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Apple put a lot of effort into diverging this software technology.
Why on Earth would it want to undo that work and converge them again?

C.

Because you then have one team. They diverged because they had to as the IPhone was not ready for OS X. What they didnt do was replicate their entire team - plenty of sub-teams of OS X, and iOS are the same team. The AppKit team is the UIKit team. The Foundation team is the (um) Foundation team. The xCode team is the xCode team.

In fact from the Foundation level down, you can say the Foo team ( for iOS) os the Foo team ( for OS X).

Merging both and releasing both at the same time, makes sense, and it advertises to the general market that iOS/OS X is a desktop level OS running on all kinds of machines.
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post #216 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

#4 Pages
#7 Penultimate
#13 Keynote
#14 Numbers
#16 GoodReader
#26 Notes Plus
#28 PrintCentral
#30 QuickOffice

Again, if you eliminate games you're pretty much left with a bunch of office productivity apps and a scattering of others.

This puts MS in pretty good position given that they have MS Office and XBox to draw on.

They would have to fully rewrite them for WP7 - which , unlike iOS/ OS X - has little in common with the desktop.
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post #217 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Thats a meaningless comparison because Apple aren't using OSX on tablets. They use iOS as you know.

What point are you trying to make?

That MS isn't unprepared for the tablet market but that their strategy differs?

A strategy that depended on Intel having an Atom product more suitable for tablets than they currently do...hence the port of Win7 on ARM.

Win7 on a tablet isn't a horrible choice even if my preference is for WP7. It probably is better to scale down WinNT for the tablet than scale WinCE up given that is what Apple did with OSX.
post #218 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

They would have to fully rewrite them for WP7 - which , unlike iOS/ OS X - has little in common with the desktop.

Hence their port of Win7 to ARM and their unchanging view that Win7 is their tablet strategy...

Most .net apps won't notice the difference and need modification anyway to handle the multi-touch events and UI layout. This isn't a full rewrite unless you've really hosed up your software design.
post #219 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post


Top Grossing iPad apps:

#2 Pages
#4 Keynote
#6 Numbers
#8 QuickOffice

If you eliminate the games category you're left with a bunch of office productivity apps as the iPad top grossing apps...

In terms of top downloads

#4 Pages
#7 Penultimate
#13 Keynote
#14 Numbers
#16 GoodReader
#26 Notes Plus
#28 PrintCentral
#30 QuickOffice

Again, if you eliminate games you're pretty much left with a bunch of office productivity apps and a scattering of others.

This puts MS in pretty good position given that they have MS Office and XBox to draw on.

You're cherry picking items that match your world view. The majority of iPad usage is web browsing. Facebook, readers, free apps and so on.

The user-interface of Office is really not that great on the desktop. It would be challenging for MS to re-factor it into something that would work on a tablet.

Instead of saying that major manufacturers have abandoned Microsoft. It would be more accurate to say that they are in the process of abandoning. They will certainly stick out a W7 tablet and see how it sells.

But if they discover that Android / WebOS tablets sell more, then abandonment process will be rapidly completed.


C.
post #220 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

To be technical here, all that Apple has to do to make iOS and OS X merge is

1) rename the UKit to Appkit, or vice versa.
2) Add touch events, or click events, depending on which way you went.

That is not a huge engineering effort.

The huge engineering effort for Apple is exactly the same for MS. Revamping desktop apps to take advantage. Currently Apple has ported Pages, Keynote and Numbers. They have iLife to go.

MS has mobile versions of Office but need to port the full versions over for Win7 Tablet.

Visio on a tablet would be nice too. Along with MS Project.
post #221 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

it advertises to the general market that iOS/OS X is a desktop level OS running on all kinds of machines.

I think tablets are heading away from desktops to create a new market, a new set of metaphors, and an a new way of interacting with computers.

The last thing this technology wants is to be shacked to the previous generation of technology. It'd be like inventing the plane and then glueing a car to the bottom.

C.
post #222 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

You mean they're following Apple and not dumping OSX in favor of a mobile OS?

Arguably WinCE isn't a horrible foundation either and my preferred one. However, applying the WP7 UI design for a customized Win7 tablet is arguably better.

Apple are not dumping OSX - but they have branched it.
One branch for desktop applications - which I explained above, will become increasingly a niche. And another branch for mobile applications, which will become increasingly the mainstream of personal computing.

Microsoft is wedded to the desktop business model. Most of their income comes from Windows. They are simply not prepared to endanger that model because it is the bedrock of everything they do.

Creating a Windows alternative is not something Microsoft would be prepared to do.

C.
post #223 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

That MS isn't unprepared for the tablet market but that their strategy differs?

That Win7 is better than OSX for tablets doesn't make Win 7 a good choice for tablets and market experience has shown a poor response to these products. There is literally a decade of desk top windows failing on tablets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

A strategy that depended on Intel having an Atom product more suitable for tablets than they currently do...hence the port of Win7 on ARM.

Win7 on a tablet isn't a horrible choice even if my preference is for WP7. It probably is better to scale down WinNT for the tablet than scale WinCE up given that is what Apple did with OSX.

Win7 on a tablet IS a poor choice. Its got usability issues and performance issues. See here. Hence their poor adoption by consumers and vendors. That Dell intends to release a tablet with Win7 on it means nothing. What successes have Dell had lately?

MS only hope is Win 8 and thats at least one year off. Who knows what the competitive landscape will look like then but my guess is that Apple will have a shit load of tablets sold and tremendous developer momentum.
post #224 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Hence their port of Win7 to ARM and their unchanging view that Win7 is their tablet strategy...
.

Win 8 is going to be ported to ARM. Thats a year away if everything goes as planned.
post #225 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

You're cherry picking items that match your world view. The majority of iPad usage is web browsing. Facebook, readers, free apps and so on.

I'm cherry picking the App stores own top grossing list?

You said:

"I don't think people buying tablets are doing so to run office productivity applications. The tablet is really the first type of personal computer which didn't have office equipment in its DNA."

If this is really true then why are office apps the second most downloaded and purchased apps in the iPad app store after games?

Why do the business and productivity categories dominate the top download and top grossing list? It sure as hell isn't because of cherry picking.

Quote:
The user-interface of Office is really not that great on the desktop. It would be challenging for MS to re-factor it into something that would work on a tablet.

Challenge or not if MS Office HD appeared in the iPad app store I bet it would beat Angry Birds HD for top slot very quickly.

Quote:
Instead of saying that major manufacturers have abandoned Microsoft. It would be more accurate to say that they are in the process of abandoning. They will certainly stick out a W7 tablet and see how it sells.

Right. And your support for that hypothesis is what? That they also offer android tablets? This is the same as claiming that PC makers were going to abandon Windows for Linux when the first netbooks were mostly Linux and only a couple folks offered XP.

That sure changed in a hurry. In 2007-8 Linux was king. By 2010 folks don't even make linux netbooks for the US market. That's not going to happen to Android but claiming that MS is dead and PC makers are "in the process of abandoning" MS is quite a stretch.

Lets see in 2012 where the market sits. I'm guessing a three way race between iOS, Android and Win7.

Quote:
But if they discover that Android / WebOS tablets sell more, then abandonment process will be rapidly completed.

Given that we have only started the tablet race this is a huge "if". I don't think HP has what it takes to be an Apple.
post #226 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Win 8 is going to be ported to ARM. Thats a year away if everything goes as planned.

My bad, yes, win8.
post #227 of 266
Nht makes a good point about productivity apps on the iPad. Rather susprising, that in fact.

he underestimates the engineering effort that MS has to make to port stuff to WP7 mobile. I think both versions of word use obsoleted technologies - i.e. Carbon or Win32/Win64. Not Cocoa and C#
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post #228 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Apple are not dumping OSX - but they have branched it.
One branch for desktop applications - which I explained above, will become increasingly a niche. And another branch for mobile applications, which will become increasingly the mainstream of personal computing.

Microsoft is wedded to the desktop business model. Most of their income comes from Windows. They are simply not prepared to endanger that model because it is the bedrock of everything they do.

Creating a Windows alternative is not something Microsoft would be prepared to do.

C.

MS isn't dumping NT - but they have branched it. One branch for desktop applications and another branch for tablets...unless you believe that they aren't going to continue to evolve windows for the tablet environment...

Given that their strategy is to extend the desktop to tablets this doesn't endanger their market much. And I think they have clued into the fact that it's better than you cannibalize your own market as opposed to let someone else do so. Whether they can execute on that clue is debatable.
post #229 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

MS isn't dumping NT - but they have branched it. One branch for desktop applications and another branch for tablets...unless you believe that they aren't going to continue to evolve windows for the tablet environment...

Given that their strategy is to extend the desktop to tablets this doesn't endanger their market much. And I think they have clued into the fact that it's better than you cannibalize your own market as opposed to let someone else do so. Whether they can execute on that clue is debatable.

You really have no idea. Not one line of code is common between NT and Windows 7 mobile.
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post #230 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Nht makes a good point about productivity apps on the iPad. Rather susprising, that in fact.

he underestimates the engineering effort that MS has to make to port stuff to WP7 mobile. I think both versions of word use obsoleted technologies - i.e. Carbon or Win32/Win64. Not Cocoa and C#

They already have Office Mobile. What they need to do is make sure they are 100% compatible with the desktop versions which I am not sure that they are. MS Office does offer managed code plug ins so there is some .net in there.

Then again iWork isn't either...

So I'm not underestimating as much as claiming that MS and Apple have fairly level playing fields with that regard.

MS ported OneNote to iOS...that was surprising as hell.
post #231 of 266
True, didnt think of OneNote. My assumption is that any code running on OS X is carbon, deprecated by supported on OS X, not available at all on iOS.
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post #232 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

You really have no idea. Not one line of code is common between NT and Windows 7 mobile.

Yes, and MS keeps claiming that Windows is their tablet strategy and not WinPhone. Therefore their tablet strategy is based on the NT kernel and not the WinCE one.

Why? I can argue both ways which might be better. But if WinNT lives on ARM tablets with Win8 then eventually I can see WinCE going away.
post #233 of 266
I don't think the top grossing, or top downloads necessarily reflect usage. Or why people are buying tablets.

But even if they did, the top 100 downloads are dominated by games. Other categories seem equal. And quite a few apps called productivity are todo lists and jotters. Productivity is not the goal of the tablet user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Given that we have only started the tablet race this is a huge "if".

Microsoft has been making tablets for what? 13 years?
The race has not just started. But MS is on entirely the wrong racetrack. Each Windows on a tablet implementation failed to fly. And the experience has not improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

I don't think HP has what it takes to be an Apple.

Like you, I am not sure that HP *can* compete with Apple.

But at least they have figured out that if you manufacture hardware and the software to go on it, you can raise margins and create a much more refined user experience.

For them, this is an improvement from licensing an OS, and then finding you are making a commodity rather than a product.

C.
post #234 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

That Win7 is better than OSX for tablets doesn't make Win 7 a good choice for tablets and market experience has shown a poor response to these products. There is literally a decade of desk top windows failing on tablets.

They'll have to steal liberally from Apple to make this work. But the primary thing is touch friendly app launching and...apps. These they can steal from WP7...both a touch skin and apps.

Quote:
MS only hope is Win 8 and thats at least one year off. Who knows what the competitive landscape will look like then but my guess is that Apple will have a shit load of tablets sold and tremendous developer momentum.

WP7's primary tablet advantage is time to market. As in MS could field a credible tablet OS based on WP7 pretty much tomorrow if they really had to.

A WP7 skin on top of Win7 is next fastest in time to market.

Win8 is the long term solution.

Well, they said that WP7 is right out. So a Win7 tablet edition with a WP7 skin and a Win7 app store with touch friendly office in late 2011 that can easily transition to Win8 is my guess at what they are thinking.
post #235 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Yes, and MS keeps claiming that Windows is their tablet strategy and not WinPhone. Therefore their tablet strategy is based on the NT kernel and not the WinCE one.

Why? I can argue both ways which might be better. But if WinNT lives on ARM tablets with Win8 then eventually I can see WinCE going away.

Oh, right. If thats the case then you are correct. I think that makes sense, as Windows Mobile 7 doesn't scale.
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post #236 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

MS isn't dumping NT - but they have branched it. One branch for desktop applications and another branch for tablets...unless you believe that they aren't going to continue to evolve windows for the tablet environment...

I am skeptical.
I think they will emerge with a Windows build for Arm.

But if it emerges with draggable windows, scroll bars, pull-down menus and other 30 year old desktop user-interface metaphors, then it's a non-starter.

C.
post #237 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

..
WP7's primary tablet advantage is time to market. As in MS could field a credible tablet OS based on WP7 pretty much tomorrow if they really had to.

A WP7 skin on top of Win7 is next fastest in time to market.

Win8 is the long term solution.

Well, they said that WP7 is right out. So a Win7 tablet edition with a WP7 skin and a Win7 app store with touch friendly office in late 2011 that can easily transition to Win8 is my guess at what they are thinking.

The problem here is that apps written to run on WP7 (WinCE) probably aren't going to work on Win8. Thats probably one reason why developers are slow to adopt WP7. It looks like a dead end OS. Like you said earlier, MS can probably scale Win 8 to smartphones if they can make it work on a tablet.

From where I'm sitting MS doesn't look like thet will have their smart phone and tablet strategy in place until 2012 at the earliest. Thats's a huge lead to give to Apple and they will face all the hurdles Apple faces on the desk top, except that Apple has the lead in the growing platform and MS has the lead in the declining platform.
post #238 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

A WP7 skin on top of Win7 is next fastest in time to market.

I think such a product will cause massive consumer confusion.

Not because it is incompatible with existing software, but because it is compatible with existing software.

People will try to run their beloved desktop apps on the tablet, only to discover the touch targets are too small, scrolling is weird and so on. An app, which was perfectly fine on a desktop, has become all sucky on a tablet.

The only way to create a better portable environment is to cut all ties with legacy software. Take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And I just don't believe Microsoft is prepared to do that.

C.
post #239 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

That's Nokia Siemens Networks which is a jointly owned but separate entity.

Yes. I know. But it's still part of Nokia's portfolio, and is reported as such. It's not entirely separate, and is controlled by both entities.
post #240 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

The problem here is that apps written to run on WP7 (WinCE) probably aren't going to work on Win8. Thats probably one reason why developers are slow to adopt WP7. It looks like a dead end OS. Like you said earlier, MS can probably scale Win 8 to smartphones if they can make it work on a tablet.

Apps written in C# and Silverlight for WP7 should port very easily to Win8.

Quote:
From where I'm sitting MS doesn't look like thet will have their smart phone and tablet strategy in place until 2012 at the earliest. Thats's a huge lead to give to Apple and they will face all the hurdles Apple faces on the desk top, except that Apple has the lead in the growing platform and MS has the lead in the declining platform.

Smartphone is WP7. That's now not 2012.

The foundation for Windows developers isn't Win7 or WP7 but .NET, WPF and Silverlight.

Tablet will be in flux...will they wait until Win8 or go with Win7+something? If they go with Win8 then I agree...2012 before they have a credible competitor. Win7+skin+app store can be done by late 2011.
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