Nokia ditches Symbian, embraces Microsoft Windows Phone for new handsets - Page 2

Originally Posted by nicolbolas

you mean like Apple?

i do not know much on this topic, so i won't say more- but MS and Apple did partner... at multiple points (some good for Apple, some bad, very very bad)


anyways, i think this is good news, as Android doesn't need more confusion- if Nokia does fairly well, i wouldn't be supprised if MS decided to only let Nokia use Windows Moblie, creating 5 large groups
A- RIM... dying as of know... lets see with the new OS
B- Apple... very successful staying that way for all the foreseeable future and beyond
C- HP... provided they understand that having a phone with no keyboard will probably sell better, i could see that taking off + having the OS work on windows PC's, making something like the App store.
D- android... i do agree that it will cost money sooner or later, and that googles regulation policies (or should i say lack of) to power of phones, and the android (idk what its called) store will bring it down
E- Nokia/Window Mobile... from all the friends that i know who have gotten a windows mobile phone, including one who switched from an IPhone to note, they all like it, aside from from the much smaller selection of Apps as of know. So it seems like it has a good user interface (i haven't used it myself, so i won't comment personally, that is my exp with friends) and other things like that. I think it will become a major player.

I personally think that if RIM doesn't get its buissness market back up, it will cease to be a player, if it can keep it back up, and hold it, i think that the mainstream market will turn into 3 (4) major camps
1- Apple/HP- control both the phones hardware, and the software, allowing them to bargain with the companies they want to sell them through. i would estimate this would be 40-50% of the market. unless Apple makes a cheaper IPhone, and HP making a phone without a keyboard.
2- Android- confusion, confusion, confusion, but cheapest still, running on cheap hardware well costing the phone companies/mfrs a small amount (less than WM, which would be with Nokia in this scenario) of money as possible. As well as apps that run on some phones but not others etc. probably controlling a 20-30% of the market.
3- WM+Nokia. like Apple/HP in a way, but the software is developed however MS wants it, and the hardware however Nokia wants it, with minimum specs universal. This would not be as good as an enviroment as Apple/HP but would probably have a price advantage (over Apple, not sure of HP) thanks to lower margin. controlling 20-40% of the market

Originally Posted by nht

They killed Symbian not Meego so they could ship their Meego tablet whenever they want. Elop indicated that there would be a 2011 MeeGo product and it wouldn't be a smartphone.

The next tablet is likely ARM based like the N900 with a 7" display running MeeGo sometime in mid 2011. Not 18 months from now.

Originally Posted by nht

They killed Symbian not Meego so they could ship their Meego tablet whenever they want. Elop indicated that there would be a 2011 MeeGo product and it wouldn't be a smartphone.
The next tablet is likely ARM based like the N900 with a 7" display running MeeGo sometime in mid 2011. Not 18 months from now.

Originally Posted by stuffe

And what OS will they use? Windows Phone 7 Series Tablet edition? I think not. MS are simply not going to tread on Windows toes by upscaling the mobile OS into form factors that they want to put Windows on instead.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

For Nokia probably a customized Win 8 core running on ARM SoC with the tablet shell UI plugged in. I'm not sure about the App Store, (probably Silverlight 5 though) and from memory the OEMs (I this case Nokia) take a cut.

Originally Posted by Logisticaldron

Its like an episode of House M.D. where a parasite has been inadvertantly keeping you alive when you should have been dead a long time ago, yet at the same time the parasite is adsorbing so much of your resources that you are now at its mercy and can no longer survive without it. See where Im going with this?

Originally Posted by Logisticaldron

MS to Nokia: Youve got the looks, Ive got the brains, lets waste lots of money.

Originally Posted by island hermit

MS has the brains in this scenario??!! Did Ballmer quit?

Originally Posted by msuberly

Symbian was about on par with PalmOS. They were good OSes in their heyday but died a slow painful death. If Palm hung onto PalmOS too long, then Nokia really held onto Symbian too long.

I am surprised Nokia went with Microsoft and not Google. Windows Phone 7 offers all the disadvantages of Android but at a cost.

Originally Posted by Project2501

I guess Nokia didn't want to be just another android company. Is there really anything to differentiate ones products in Android camp. I think consumers are more loyal to Android, than single manufacturer.

Originally Posted by nicolbolas

I personally think that if RIM doesn't get its buissness market back up, it will cease to be a player, if it can keep it back up, and hold it, i think that the mainstream market will turn into 3 (4) major camps
1- Apple/HP- control both the phones hardware, and the software, allowing them to bargain with the companies they want to sell them through. i would estimate this would be 40-50% of the market. unless Apple makes a cheaper IPhone, and HP making a phone without a keyboard.
2- Android- confusion, confusion, confusion, but cheapest still, running on cheap hardware well costing the phone companies/mfrs a small amount (less than WM, which would be with Nokia in this scenario) of money as possible. As well as apps that run on some phones but not others etc. probably controlling a 20-30% of the market.
3- WM+Nokia. like Apple/HP in a way, but the software is developed however MS wants it, and the hardware however Nokia wants it, with minimum specs universal. This would not be as good as an enviroment as Apple/HP but would probably have a price advantage (over Apple, not sure of HP) thanks to lower margin. controlling 20-40% of the market

Originally Posted by Logisticaldron

I was using a looser definition of HW and SW. Technically, even trolls have brains, even if they arent well crafted or useful brains.

Originally Posted by pembroke

"Ecosystems thrive"?
> W T F does that mean to 99% of phone Users? Enough already, with 'Ecosystem'. Can't we just use the term "integrated services"?

"Fuelled by speed, innovation and scale"
> trite verbal diarrhoea.

"proven ability to execute"
> WTF does that mean - could it be that they "sell lots of units"? For goodness sake. And how is it proven? How well are WP7 and Nokia units selling these days?

When any CEO starts talking platitudinous business-speak that only underscores the weakness of the point trying to be made - and the weakness of the CEO.


I enjoy being angry, btw

Originally Posted by RPT

Based on the alternatives, it is hard to see what better move Nokia could have made, there are no easy way out of the situation they are in; I consider it a fact that Symbian is dead.

Going with MS they may be able to work out a deal where they will have an identity as THE MS OS phone, be a part of an ecosystem, and still keep a separate identity, I believe this would be a benefit to both MS and Nokia, and I think they both need it which may result in a MS more humble than they traditionally have been.

As another Droid phone they would, like all the other Droid phones, slowly loose their identity, and be just another piece of hardware subject to the whims of Google; to most people the perception is to buy either iPhone or just any Droid, not a specific Droid. None of my friends having Droid tells me they have a HTC or a Samsung, they tell me they have a Droid, this leads me to believe that we will se quality brands like HTC and Samsung decline in favor of no-brand phones. (Assuming HTC is a quality brand, I had two pre Droids, and they certainly were not quality!)

Also I believe you have to factor in the Finnish spirit into this, I have been doing business with the Finns for years, they are way above most nations in education and organization, thru a very dramatic history they are used to be alone or end up in bad company having to make the best of it (WW2, the Soviet Union, Swedish domination), and they simply don't give up.

Nokia is not dead, they will take a hit short term because nobody will buy Symbian now, so they don't have a lot of time, but I have no doubt they will be a force in the future. This is good news for everybody, we need the competition.

Originally Posted by Logisticaldron

Ouch! Nokia isnt doing so hot in the stock market: http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ANOK

First of all, MS isnt in decline. They are still growing their revenue and profits at a rate that outpaces the market each quarter.

Second, the strategy of two less successful companies combining to compete better against others in a market segment isnt uncommon, isnt a bad move in and of itself, and has proven to be hugely successful in the past.

Overall, I think WebOS would have been a better option, just as I think Android would have been a better option (but with a unique but steady UI that allowed for Nokia to differentiate itself, have its one Nokia Android app store that it approved and vetted, but not disallow other Android apps). The problem with these for Nokia is the problem theyve had with Symbian, Meego, Ovi and every other piece of code they suck at it. At least with WP7 they are paying MS for making an OS. And because of the WP7 sales being lower than expected MS needs them, too. This could work.

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

Holy crap! It always made sense but I really had a feeling Nokia wouldn't go for it.

I suppose Nokia must have seen what most people see once they play with a WP7... it's the best mobile phone OS sans a bunch of tick-box features and a more solid App Store.

Unfortunately there is a whole lot more to a mobile platform than simply having the best mobile phone OS like worldwide sales channels, mind share, confidence in the company, integration with other hardware and mobile devices and so on.

Some of this Nokia can provide like relationships with sales channels and some mind share. I'm impressed that Nokia are backing themselves. I wonder if they will re-brand? Having "Windows" in the name of a consumer phone kind of sucks!

Some Microsoft can provide. The early update being distributed (Apple style) by Microsoft through the Zune client is a big bonus.

However some things are still totally lacking like the solid 3rd party hardware and integration iDevices enjoy as well as a Windows tablet that can actually compete with the iPad.

Interesting times people, interesting times!

Originally Posted by Blastdoor

smart move for Nokia, and great news for MS.

The next platform to die will probably be RIM's. My guess is RIM will go with Android.

I'm surprised by the level of commitment HP is showing to WebOS, but I suspect that no matter how well they execute, WebOS will lose due to what is essentially a very late start from scratch.

So we will end up with three platforms, iOS, Windows, and Android. My guess is that in the long run Apple and MS will have roughly equal shares of the market (maybe 25-30 percent each) while Android will take the rest (40-50 percent). Apple will be the most profitable, MS the second, and Android will be a failure from the perspective of a Google shareholder as I think Google will lose control of the platform. Android will become the "generic" platform embraced by no-name producers, and those producers may frequently choose to eschew Google services, particularly in the emerging markets.

Originally Posted by Logisticaldron

MS to Nokia: Youve got the looks, Ive got the brains, lets waste lots of money.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

I tend to agree with this assessment. I'm not sure why everyone else is being so positive about it.

This feels like a takeover to me, even at this distance. I think that "up close" in Helsinki they are probably not going to react very well at all. We are talking about *the* national company here, I don't think the majority of the folks that use Nokia products, let alone the huge portion of the population that works there, is going to see this as good news.

It seems likely that vast numbers of Nokia smartphone users will jump ship. It seems likely also that the clash of cultures and what appears to be an outside hostile takeover of the beloved national company is going to cause some major waves as well.

By the time they get it all sorted out it will be too late and too many people will have left. At the very least we are going to see a years worth of "integration" while Windows Phone 7 is re-done so it works internationally.

This is horrible news for Nokia. They are going to be eviscerated because they bought into a crazy pipe dream of Win Phone 7 dominance that was sold to them by the oldest group of snake-oil salesmen in the business.

Originally Posted by TBell

If the choice was between Android and Windows, I would have went with Android. Windows 7 is a big improvement over previous attempts, but Microsoft has been very slow to bring to market improvements. Further, it is years behind.

Originally Posted by Smarky

Bunch of absolute muppets at Nokia, they have been completely and uttlerly stitched up and ass raped by Microsoft and there new CEO who came from there and is likely still under contract with Microsoft.

Originally Posted by Smarky

Windows Phone 7 is without a shadow of a doubt completely and utterly shit.

Originally Posted by Smarky

Nokia is doomed, I have not seen such a stupid decision in a long long long time. Bunch of fucking idiots the lot of them.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

I tend to agree with this assessment. I'm not sure why everyone else is being so positive about it.

By the time they get it all sorted out it will be too late and too many people will have left. At the very least we are going to see a years worth of "integration" while Windows Phone 7 is re-done so it works internationally.

This is horrible news for Nokia. They are going to be eviscerated because they bought into a crazy pipe dream of Win Phone 7 dominance that was sold to them by the oldest group of snake-oil salesmen in the business.

Originally Posted by bullhead

How do you differentiate yourself in the Windows cloner market

Originally Posted by Smarky

Come on, Windows phone 7 is ugly as sin.

I don't know anyone who would actually want one.

A windows phone 7 handset is worth maybe $200, but not high end at all. Can get a proper phone for that

Originally Posted by bullhead

It is as if the Microsoft guy they got is on a mission to destroy the company so it could be bought by Microsoft in the future so Microsoft can back stab their partners and release their own phone.

Originally Posted by Smarky

Nokia, they have been completely and uttlerly stitched up and ass raped by Microsoft

Originally Posted by saarek

So one declining giant embracing another.....

Originally Posted by justflybob

Isn't it amazing that two companies that struggle with change think that together they will create something better?

[cough] HP/Compaq [cough]

Originally Posted by Firefly7475

True. I can't imagine it's going to be anything but a stop-gap solution until Microsoft can provide them with an ARM tablet OS.

Or maybe they will just tell Microsoft to move WP7 to a tablet. I wouldn't be surprised if they had that kind of power in this relationship.

Originally Posted by Logisticaldron

It seems that no matter what they companies do pretty much everyone here will say its the wrong move. If we say that both MS and Nokia are going into an eventual dead ends by themselves why do we say that by teaming up and feeding off each others strengths they are still heading in the wrong directions. A relevant example is Apple and NeXT, but faltering in their own ways were able to make a success from the union. Why do we say that HP buying Palm will have to be a disaster? Why does Nokia and MS have to be a disaster? Just because not all mergers and symbiotic business relationships have proven to be successful compared to the competition? That isnt a solid argument for me. This is certainly better than what they had going before.

Originally Posted by msuberly

Symbian was about on par with PalmOS. They were good OSes in their heyday but died a slow painful death. If Palm hung onto PalmOS too long, then Nokia really held onto Symbian too long.

I am surprised Nokia went with Microsoft and not Google. Windows Phone 7 offers all the disadvantages of Android but at a cost.

Originally Posted by battlehamster

I think they may have faceplanted into an iceberg while jump from the burning platform towards the icy waters. If they survive the head trauma, maybe the iceberg will provide stable land for them.