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post #41 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandil View Post

It would suck to get an underpowered, cheap A4-based phone that might only have App "support" for the latest apps for only a year or two.

It would still be better supported than Android phones!

Besides, when people are getting the "free" phone option, do you really think they are worrying about app support beyond two years?
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post #42 of 159
Why would it have to be smaller???
When the iPhone 5 comes out, just keep the 3GS (preferable at 16GB) available as a $200 no contract or free with contract model ! I'd also like to be able to have an iPhone without a data plan (for my kids).
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post #43 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

I'm sorry, but I don't believe this for a second (re: the smaller phone).

Think of it as the iPhone equivalent of the iPod Nano. Or the MacBook Air of iPhones. Does that help?

Apple tends to sell product families. So far the iPad and iPhone are the only child in their respective families. That won't last.
post #44 of 159
I think the the edge to edge screen design enables this new iPhone to shrink considerably without creating an unusable interface. The screen doesn't have to shrink much at all!



It might even sell better then the regular iPhone. I believe it will be free with a 2 year contract. This is the phone for the masses.

Hopefully they'll take the regular iPhone5's screen edge to edge while keeping the same form factor (or something similar.) This is actually something i've been wanting for some time!

post #45 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

I can see a market for a different size iPhone like they did with the iPods, but with the integrated systems revolving around the display size going smaller or larger gets difficult. I certainly dont see a need for a smaller iPhone at this point. The US market aside, are they saturated in other countries at this point?

Yeah, I don't see Apple doing this, simply because it would lead to a more fractured platform. That seems very un-Apple to me.

I also don't see how it would benefit them really. They make huge profits off of the iPhone. The next iteration will generation huge profits again. Let other companies sell low-margin phones.
post #46 of 159
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post #47 of 159
Nice mock-ups, mjayer. Very well done.

But here's a question: if the phone case shrinks but keeps most of the screen real estate, where are the big savings in cost coming from? If Apple is going to sell this thing for half of what they're selling the iPhone 4 for, there must be some compromises in the BOM, but I'm not seeing where that would be. To tell you the truth, I'm not seeing that even if the screen shrank proportionately to the case-- a 2.5" screen isn't going to be $300 less than a 3.5" screen.

Not only that, but typically additional miniaturization of components costs more, not less, than the equivalent full sized device.

If this rumor is true, there has to be more to it than just a smaller iPhone. Lesser CPU, less memory, less functionality-- something.
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post #48 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandil View Post

This, and it would open the door to further fragmentation of the iOS platform when it comes to apps. Already there are some apps that require an iPhone 4 or iPad due the need of the A4's processing power. The number of apps that work with all the flavors of iPhone/iPod_Touch/iPad running iOS 3.x+ is already diminishing.

It would suck to get an underpowered, cheap A4-based phone that might only have App "support" for the latest apps for only a year or two.

iOS will always have some level of fragmentation although not as bad as Android. It's inevitable. The more they add features with each version the less likely older versions will not be supported.
post #49 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Nice mock-ups, mjayer. Very well done.

But here's a question: if the phone case shrinks but keeps most of the screen real estate, where are the big savings in cost coming from? If Apple is going to sell this thing for half of what they're selling the iPhone 4 for, there must be some compromises in the BOM, but I'm not seeing where that would be. To tell you the truth, I'm not seeing that even if the screen shrank proportionately to the case-- a 2.5" screen isn't going to be $300 less than a 3.5" screen.

Not only that, but typically additional miniaturization of components costs more, not less, than the equivalent full sized device.

If this rumor is true, there has to be more to it than just a smaller iPhone. Lesser CPU, less memory, less functionality-- something.

and as others have pointed out a different experience. With a smaller screen I'm wondering if it would support 3rd party apps at all? Besides the obvious component swap out. 1MP camera, 8GB flash Maybe no gyro or compass? I don't know, but 3rd party Apps would be a feature I'd expect a nano iphone to not support. Maybe this is why they would push MM harder; to reinforce the strengths of the native apps. No third party apps, but you get great email, photos and videos pushed to the cloud, address book synching, music pulled from the cloud, Safari bookmark synching etc.
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post #50 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Nice mock-ups, mjayer. Very well done.

But here's a question: if the phone case shrinks but keeps most of the screen real estate, where are the big savings in cost coming from? If Apple is going to sell this thing for half of what they're selling the iPhone 4 for, there must be some compromises in the BOM, but I'm not seeing where that would be. To tell you the truth, I'm not seeing that even if the screen shrank proportionately to the case-- a 2.5" screen isn't going to be $300 less than a 3.5" screen.

Here's where I can see the cost saving coming from: No retina screen. Previous gen internals.

Also you have to consider Apple's margins must already be fantastic! Do you remember those graphs that showed apples market share by units and then by profit? It's killing everyone on profit. They could stand to lose a bit of their margins in a cheaper device if they have to.
post #51 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

Yeah, I don't see Apple doing this, simply because it would lead to a more fractured platform. That seems very un-Apple to me.

I also don't see how it would benefit them really. They make huge profits off of the iPhone. The next iteration will generation huge profits again. Let other companies sell low-margin phones.

Holy cow! Not only has this been answered already in this thread, it has been answers quite clearly in Apple's history!! The iPod was king, amounting to almost all of Apple's revenue growth when they introduced smaller, cheaper and (yes) less profitable versions. Why would Apple undercut itself? Because if they didn't somebody else would. In the case of phones, somebody else (obviously) already does!
The fallacy is that Apple doesn't care about market share. Sure they do. They want all they can get--but only at a decent profit with a decent product. If this rumor is true, apple must have found a way to make a phone that they like that is much more economical. The debate should be about how that would be possible and what it would be like, not whether Apple would do it or not...
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Nice mock-ups, mjayer. Very well done.

here here!
Quote:
But here's a question: if the phone case shrinks but keeps most of the screen real estate, where are the big savings in cost coming from? <snip>

Not only that, but typically additional miniaturization of components costs more, not less, than the equivalent full sized device.

If this rumor is true, there has to be more to it than just a smaller iPhone. Lesser CPU, less memory, less functionality-- something.

This is more like it! Every question here deserves some thought.
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post #52 of 159
This rumor has some merit. A smaller iPhone would require getting rid of the Home button area as rumored with new gestures coming to iOS that would replace the home button. That would cut about 3/4 of an inch off of the iPhone's face. Then get rid of the bezel altogether and reduce the amount of black non-screen realestate at the top.

Basically a mostly screen phone without sacrificing the screen dimensions. That would be acceptable.
post #53 of 159
am i the only one who thinks that this is a stupid idea?!

releasing a cheaper iphone only serves to undercut their own business model. apple doesn't need and has never really needed market share since they've focused on profit margins. releasing a cheaper iphone will probably mean that a significant portion of their own customer base would go for the cheaper model when they next purchase a phone and therefore reduce income for Apple. Of course, I don't know the estimated profit margin on each unit sold, but still...
post #54 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

The reasons do not make sense. Size is not the only difference distinguishing different iPods. In order to cut cost Apple need to offer less functionality for iPod nano and iPod mini. So the question really is what functionality will Apple cut from a smaller cheaper iPhone? But a smaller phone with less functionality is essentially a feature phone.

Well some people just want a feature phone and don't need maps and things or they have an Ipad so really just want a phone/music player.
post #55 of 159
I believe Apple is pursuing this strategy. It is the same thing it did with the iPod. However, I am concerned that Apple will go overboard on striving to make its devices smaller. For example, the Shuffle with the Lanyard really stunk. It was too small. Further, the refreshed Nano is kind of cool, but it would have been a better shuffle replacement. My gym instructor was a big fan of the Nano, however, the screen on the refresh was too small to see while teaching classes. Accordingly, she bought a used Nano with a larger screen.

The iPhone is about as small as it can go to be a comfortable fit for most people. Some guys with larger hands probably prefer some other phones because the iPhone 4 isn't great for these people.
post #56 of 159
Seems to have worked in the iPod arena. Apple owns the top end of the market. It now wants to own the middle as well. If it had bluetooth and integrated with Mac applications like the address book, my girlfriend would be interested.

Many people do not want a data plan, nor do they want to be tied to a contract. That is why I am using an unlocked phone.


Further, Apple needs to keep its stores with new and interesting things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopanda3088 View Post

am i the only one who thinks that this is a stupid idea?!

releasing a cheaper iphone only serves to undercut their own business model. apple doesn't need and has never really needed market share since they've focused on profit margins. releasing a cheaper iphone will probably mean that a significant portion of their own customer base would go for the cheaper model when they next purchase a phone and therefore reduce income for Apple. Of course, I don't know the estimated profit margin on each unit sold, but still...
post #57 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser View Post

Those of you screaming that such a move makes no sense aren't seeing the bigger picture here...

A smaller phone, as one earlier poster said, a 'feature phone' that works primarily as a phone and an ipod and can serve as a wireless tethering device for an ipad makes perfect sense.

Lots of people have both an iphone and an ipad; why duplicate the functionality of the ipad in the iphone when you don't need it if you already have an ipad?

For those of you who don't want to carry two devices, you don't have to; just buy the larger full featured iphone.

But for those people who already carry an ipad with them most of the time, again, why have that feature duplication, the extra weight, bulk, cost, etc. of a full size/featured iphone when you're already carrying an ipad with you most of the time?

It also opens up the lower cost market to Apple, giving them an opening to lead people to buy the full size device or an ipad.

Makes perfect sense.

I have thought about this iPhone/iPad before. It makes much sense.
post #58 of 159
That sums it up. Apple would rather cannibalize itself then have somebody else do it. As Cook said at the last earnings call, the iPad is taking some sales from Apple in terms of Macs, but Apple would rather have that happen then somebody go spend money on another companies product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Why would Apple undercut itself? Because if they didn't somebody else would. In the case of phones, somebody else (obviously) already does!
post #59 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Why would it have to be smaller???
When the iPhone 5 comes out, just keep the 3GS (preferable at 16GB) available as a $200 no contract or free with contract model ! I'd also like to be able to have an iPhone without a data plan (for my kids).

It makes sense to you because you will save money. It makes no sense to Apple because it will not make money.
post #60 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andykemp View Post

Hey Apple. Don't focus on another smaller phone. Finally make one that has a removable battery for once. That is truely my biggest problem with iPhone design. I have the special tools to remove one but shouldn't have to. Probably voids the warranty doing it yourself anyway.

Why would you be removing the battery when it's covered by warranty and can be replaced for free anyway?

Talk about a stupid argument.
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post #61 of 159
Yes, the smaller iPhone does not have to be with much smaller screen. They can just get rid of all the basel and move hardware button to a side.

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post #62 of 159
There is no reason Apple couldn't go back to it's iTools format, where it gave free email and related services. The reality is many users, myself included would ditch gmail in a heartbeat if Apple went back to giving free online services. iTools used to rock, and it was great advertisement for Apple. Everytime I sent an email, people knew I was a Mac user.

I just sent Jobs an email, explaining that providing these services for free would be a great way to counter Google. It would be one less thing I needed Google for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

I hope MobileMe will still have a paid service, too. I don’t want ads, lack of support or all the other horrible things that come with a service being free.
post #63 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by franktinsley View Post

I could see this with maybe a non-retina display at the same size but with almost nothing around the screen. Home button would be replaced with a gesture and the voice control would be much more advanced and also available in the iPhone 5.

BINGO, DING DING DING

workable screen will be defined with the new iPad, ios, phone 5 and phone 5 mini
if the patents are right you don't need dead space screen and phone stays the same size
it also puts a big kicker to the other "touch screen" out there to differentiate the masses

also it can have 8gb storage but higher ram, lower screen res, hey my 3g works great looks great, imagine same thing but more ram and they have made advancements in soc etc
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post #64 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjayer View Post

I think the the edge to edge screen design enables this new iPhone to shrink considerably without creating an unusable interface. The screen doesn't have to shrink much at all!



It might even sell better then the regular iPhone. I believe it will be free with a 2 year contract. This is the phone for the masses.

Hopefully they'll take the regular iPhone5's screen edge to edge while keeping the same form factor (or something similar.) This is actually something i've been wanting for some time!


Great Job, what about the option of dropping the home button, then it gets real interesting
I love your post, great comparison helps give perspective
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post #65 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

... It is not obvious to me that an extra $100 or so (amortized over 24 months, i.e.,~4/month) matters all that much to most subscribers.

RE amortized costs: consumers seem to be inordantly sensitive to initial cost and inordantly insensitive to term costs. It is stupid, but it is the case even with smart consumers (at least here in the USA--I can't speak for other societies).

I don't understand it either. The iPhone 4 is already small enough, and the initial cost isn't significant when a two year contract is going to be $2400 or so.

All of which means, they probably won't be able to keep up with demand
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post #66 of 159
Don't you dare kill that home button, Apple.

Anyone who thinks Apple is simply going to make a smaller iPhone is kidding themselves. It's going to have to differentiate itself further than that. I'm thinking this smaller iPhone will have 12 icons per home screen, not 20. Possibly more spread out than the current icons. I think the screen on iPhone nano will be 3" and it will be targeted directly at teens. It will be Apple's NON-Smartphone, and will likely be released in several colors.

This new Apple product will cannibalize both the iPod nano and the iPod touch, some, but if done right will be such a massive hit it will possibly overshadow them.
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post #67 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

and as others have pointed out a different experience. With a smaller screen I'm wondering if it would support 3rd party apps at all? Besides the obvious component swap out. 1MP camera, 8GB flash Maybe no gyro or compass? I don't know, but 3rd party Apps would be a feature I'd expect a nano iphone to not support. Maybe this is why they would push MM harder; to reinforce the strengths of the native apps. No third party apps, but you get great email, photos and videos pushed to the cloud, address book synching, music pulled from the cloud, Safari bookmark synching etc.

This really summarizes the difference to the existing iPhone. The new phone would not be a scaled-down iPhone but something different and missing much of the "magic" of the iPhone. This helps to differentiate the existing iPhone from this newcomer with many still preferring to purchase the existing iPhone.
post #68 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchanted View Post

Jobs has commented in relation to other products that Apple will strive to eliminate price umbrellas. I think a less-expensive iPhone is just an extension of this plan with iDevices in general.

This is the first thing I thought also. I'm not sure if they are indeed making a smaller iPhone but there are plenty good reasons to do so.

I think the article gets the it wrong (as do many of the commentators), when they simply imagine a smaller, lighter version of the same iPhone for less money. This is a ridiculous idea. If they could do that they would simply sell the iPhone that way.

It stands to reason that if the iPhone cannot be made substantially smaller without losing some of it's key features, (and it clearly can't), that a smaller iPhone or nano-phone is going to be a different thing altogether. It would of necessity have a different screen size, different UI, different apps and a different purpose in life to match.

The most likely target is the feature-phone, so a smaller iPhone product that does phone, music, photos, and text messaging (and maybe even no apps at first), would be expected if they enter the market. If they can churn out a product like that at a low price or free with subsidy, they will vacuum up large portions of the feature-phone market.

The phone would also serve as a sort of entry level drug to the Apple ecosystem in that everyone needs to have a phone, even those that don't have a smartphone.
post #69 of 159
What if apple does keep the 3.5 inch screen size and just shrinks the rest down as much as possible? I don't see them ditching the button. I think it's an important part of the iOS experience. They may, however, redesign it a bit. Maybe shrink it a bit. Anywho, here's what I think that will look like:



I'm not sure keeping the 3.5 inch screen will enable to let them make it small enough to really differentiate it.

Looking at these mock ups though, man that bezel on the iPhone 4 is looking HUGE!
post #70 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by 801 View Post



While not a well publicized fact, Dick Tracy had very wide wrists. But those who put a Nano on their wrists might be a harbinger of things to come.

Right on! The prototype for the next generation of iPhone is already out amongst us... the iPod Nano! When you put it on your wrist with a Griffin Snap, and add a bluetooth earpiece and Siri, you have all the components of a future iPhone. Store most of your music, photos etc on the cloud and use flash to store your address book, iOS apps. THe Nano already has a big enough battery for what it needs. Data entry/commands via Siri and the earpiece. Hey, it will work! And it will look a lot cooler than Tracy's watch too!

-Eric
post #71 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjayer View Post

I think the the edge to edge screen design enables this new iPhone to shrink considerably without creating an unusable interface. The screen doesn't have to shrink much at all!

Etc...

Nice mock up but I don't get why the shrunken phone would be any cheaper to manufacture. And can you even get a bumper or case on it without blocking the screen?
post #72 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 cents View Post

Nice mock up but I don't get why the shrunken phone would be any cheaper to manufacture. And can you even get a bumper or case on it without blocking the screen?

I have a case on my iPhone4 that doesn't block any of the bezel whatsoever. Having said that, I don't think apple will keep the iPhone 4's design for the next round, especially if they go this route. I think they'll do an entirely different design. They aren't going to release another phone with the antenna on the outside. Not unless they can fix the issue, even if it's not a big one, it's there.

As far as cost goes there is plenty of corners they can cut. No gyro? No retina display? Previous generation silicon?
post #73 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Don't you dare kill that home button, Apple.

Anyone who thinks Apple is simply going to make a smaller iPhone is kidding themselves. It's going to have to differentiate itself further than that. I'm thinking this smaller iPhone will have 12 icons per home screen, not 20. Possibly more spread out than the current icons. I think the screen on iPhone nano will be 3" and it will be targeted directly at teens. It will be Apple's NON-Smartphone, and will likely be released in several colors.

This new Apple product will cannibalize both the iPod nano and the iPod touch, some, but if done right will be such a massive hit it will possibly overshadow them.

I say the home button isn't going anywhere, and they won't make a smaller iPhone. Now, they MIGHT make another phone altogether with Apple's design philosophy in place, but I don't think it'll be an iPhone.

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post #74 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Holy cow! Not only has this been answered already in this thread, it has been answers quite clearly in Apple's history!! The iPod was king, amounting to almost all of Apple's revenue growth when they introduced smaller, cheaper and (yes) less profitable versions. Why would Apple undercut itself? Because if they didn't somebody else would. In the case of phones, somebody else (obviously) already does!
The fallacy is that Apple doesn't care about market share. Sure they do. They want all they can get--but only at a decent profit with a decent product. If this rumor is true, apple must have found a way to make a phone that they like that is much more economical. The debate should be about how that would be possible and what it would be like, not whether Apple would do it or not...

here here!

This is more like it! Every question here deserves some thought.

Your observations make sense to me.

Apple does care about profits but that does not mean they are oblivious to marketshare or market opportunities. Jobs has commented several times about creating no price umbrella when discussing the iPod and iPad and, maybe even, the MBA. Such a price umbrella does exist in the iPhone world where there is a substantial difference between the lowest price unsubsidized iPhone and the lowest price Android phone. Besides, some people just want a good phone without the need for a lot of data services. Not to mention, this is a phone that could do well in emerging markets like China, India and Brazil. Apple could sell this phone to people who would never consider the current iPhone due to cost and is willing to gamble that it won't pull too much business from the existing iPhone.

As for profit, I suspect that Apple will have plenty of margin but, given the lower selling price, fewer margin dollars per phone. Apple would be expecting to trade those high margin dollars for a substantial increase in phone sales at a lower price.
post #75 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebergh View Post

Right on! The prototype for the next generation of iPhone is already out amongst us... the iPod Nano! When you put it on your wrist with a Griffin Snap, and add a bluetooth earpiece and Siri, you have all the components of a future iPhone. Store most of your music, photos etc on the cloud and use flash to store your address book, iOS apps. THe Nano already has a big enough battery for what it needs. Data entry/commands via Siri and the earpiece. Hey, it will work! And it will look a lot cooler than Tracy's watch too!

-Eric

This is the only thing that makes sense.

The other prototypes of an edge-to-edge screen on a phone will never work, because if you hold it in your left hand (if you're a righty) your fingertips will spill over onto the screen and confuse the touch sensors.
post #76 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

And if it's acceptable to shrink down the iPhone UI and it's still usable, there should be no more arguments about making a smaller sized iPad, either.

No offense, but I don't see a smaller iPhone (if real) validating a smaller version of the iPad as they are both designed for different markets and uses.

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post #77 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopanda3088 View Post

am i the only one who thinks that this is a stupid idea?!

releasing a cheaper iphone only serves to undercut their own business model. apple doesn't need and has never really needed market share since they've focused on profit margins. releasing a cheaper iphone will probably mean that a significant portion of their own customer base would go for the cheaper model when they next purchase a phone and therefore reduce income for Apple. Of course, I don't know the estimated profit margin on each unit sold, but still...

Since this phone is likely to be substantially less capable than the current iPhone, I don't think that Apple would direct that many high-margin sales to this lower-cost design. Apple understands market segmentation and product differentiation as well as any company - you need look only as far as the iPod to see that.

I'd expect this phone to still have healthy margins even though it will not deliver the same margin dollars.
post #78 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Seems to have worked in the iPod arena. Apple owns the top end of the market. It now wants to own the middle as well. If it had bluetooth and integrated with Mac applications like the address book, my girlfriend would be interested.

Many people do not want a data plan, nor do they want to be tied to a contract. That is why I am using an unlocked phone.


Further, Apple needs to keep its stores with new and interesting things.

Yep. This appears to be a re-enactment of the iPod strategy - not a something for everyone mess like Dell, but enough choices to draw a new customer who would never have considered the existing iPhone.
post #79 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

This is the first thing I thought also. I'm not sure if they are indeed making a smaller iPhone but there are plenty good reasons to do so.

I think the article gets the it wrong (as do many of the commentators), when they simply imagine a smaller, lighter version of the same iPhone for less money. This is a ridiculous idea. If they could do that they would simply sell the iPhone that way.

It stands to reason that if the iPhone cannot be made substantially smaller without losing some of it's key features, (and it clearly can't), that a smaller iPhone or nano-phone is going to be a different thing altogether. It would of necessity have a different screen size, different UI, different apps and a different purpose in life to match.

The most likely target is the feature-phone, so a smaller iPhone product that does phone, music, photos, and text messaging (and maybe even no apps at first), would be expected if they enter the market. If they can churn out a product like that at a low price or free with subsidy, they will vacuum up large portions of the feature-phone market.

The phone would also serve as a sort of entry level drug to the Apple ecosystem in that everyone needs to have a phone, even those that don't have a smartphone.

A great summation.
post #80 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Will it come with a file to whittle down my fingers in order to use it?

No it will come with a little Chinese boy or girl.
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