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Apple unveils subscriptions for iOS App Store, bans links to out-of-app purchases - Page 6

post #201 of 571
2/15/11 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

But not in this case. Amazon can choose to be in the App store. Or they can choose to go it alone invest in their Kindle reader. They can even do both.

They can't choose to be in the app store, and whine about the terms. They are there voluntarily.

As voluntarily as Netscape offered a version of their browser for Windows at a time when worldwide 98% of all computers used Windows, they certainly had a choice.
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post #202 of 571
2/15/11 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Their competitors don't allow any kind of out of app purchasing on their readers. Which system is better?

What?
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post #203 of 571
2/15/11 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

I didn't know you can install apps on kindle or that you can buy ibooks outside iTunes

Uh, that was the point. Who is being worse here, Amazon and B&N for not allowing any competition in their stores from other companies, or Apple for insisting that they be allowed to give the same deal to their customers as the others they do allow to sell within their store?

I think that it should be pretty obvious that the answer that Apple is being fairer.
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post #204 of 571
2/15/11 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Oh right.
Like the Xbox? Or the PS3?

Or this..
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application...nt-Kit-525340/


C.

We'll see how Amazon behaves then. I didn't know they were working on that. What I said about Apple would also apply to Amazon then. Once you open up your platform to other developers, and you have sufficient market share, you can't manipulate your platform to favor your services.

As for the PS3 and Xbox. I don't think they are taking a 30% cut of Netflix subscriptions in an effort to raise prices so that their video services are favored. My opinion isn't based on the fact that the company in question is Apple. It's based on their position in the market and what they are attempting to do with that market position.
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post #205 of 571
2/15/11 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Uh, that was the point. Who is being worse here, Amazon and B&N for not allowing any competition in their stores from other companies, or Apple for insisting that they be allowed to give the same deal to their customers as the others they do allow to sell within their store?

I think that it should be pretty obvious that the answer that Apple is being fairer.

Ein? They doesn't have app stores. And as far as I know, you CAN buy books in other stores and use them on Kindles and Nooks and they don't force you to take a cut.
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post #206 of 571
2/15/11 at 9:59am
Interesting discussions... I can only hope that consumers don't lose out.

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is this. Doesn't the Kindle app also reside on the Mac store as well? If so, is Apple exerting the same requirements?
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post #207 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Interesting discussions... I can only hope that consumers don't lose out.

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is this. Doesn't the Kindle app also reside on the Mac store as well? If so, is Apple exerting the same requirements?

As soon as they implement in-app purchasing of Mac App Store apps, there sure will.
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post #208 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Ein? They doesn't have app stores. And as far as I know, you CAN buy books in other stores and use them on Kindles and Nooks and they don't force you to take a cut.

Yes there is a Kindle app store. And you can buy Kindle and Nooks ebooks without paying Apple a cut.. use the device store!
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post #209 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Ein? They doesn't have app stores. And as far as I know, you CAN buy books in other stores and use them on Kindles and Nooks and they don't force you to take a cut.

As far as I know, you can't, because each bookstore is using its own DRM.
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post #210 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Irrelevant, it's a different scenario. Apple's free to keep the app store to themselves, much like they have with iTunes and iPods, but the moment they open it up to other developers, they can't manipulate it to give themselves an advantage in other markets such as eBooks. If you read my other posts, probably 80% of my posts are in favor of an Apple practice. I'm not against this because I'm anti-Apple, I'm against it because it's an abuse of market position and it isn't right.

Just because some posters assume it's that doesn't mean that it is. Apple isn't telling them how much to charge. That will be up to them. I think they would have a very difficult time of proving abuse. All Apple would have to do is to remove all external sales from their stores, and these companies would howl even more. Even Sony, who is real mad about the denial of their app, has only threatened to remove music from iTunes IF and it's a big if, their new music service they're launching (a second or third try) is successful. If it's not, they won't attempt to do that. That's not much of a threat. If they're planning a legal battle, they haven't mentioned it so far.
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post #211 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

As for the PS3 and Xbox. I don't think they are taking a 30% cut of Netflix subscriptions in an effort to raise prices so that their video services are favored. My opinion isn't based on the fact that the company in question is Apple. It's based on their position in the market and what they are attempting to do with that market position.

MS and Sony take roughly 70% of revenues for publishers making games for their online game stores.

Nor would they allow someone to open a rival game store on these platforms.

C.
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post #212 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

As far as I know, you can't, because each bookstore is using its own DRM.

You're wrong, you can buy DRM kindle or nook books at fictionwise.
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post #213 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Reality is Kindle doesn't have apps and you can't buy iBooks outside iTunes. Ah, and you CAN buy B&N books from Kindle

Actually, there some apps, and they've got an SDK to create more. Obviously, Amazon will be moving upscale with later readers that will be more like tablets.

And how can you buy B&N books on the Kindle?
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post #214 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No. One thing has nothing to do with the other. They are separate. If you had to pay once before, you will now. If you had to pay more than once before, you will now as well.

Why should Apple get 30% of all my recurring subscription fees for Netflix simply because I signed up for the service on my iPhone?

They are using their market position to take a cut of a pie that from my perspective isn't theirs. iOS only subscriptions, I understand. Cross platform? Not a chance. They deserve to be paid by anyone wishing to use their subscription services, but it shouldn't be a mandatory requirement for apps to be on the app store.

The root of the problem seems to be their free apps have no hosting charge policy, but that's also one of the greatest benefits of the App Store. Apple is probably justified in wishing for some compensation for allowing these apps on iOS and on the App Store, but I don't think they are justified in asking for 30% of all subscription fees initiated from those apps.
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post #215 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And how can you buy B&N books on the Kindle?

It has a browser
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post #216 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

As far as I know, Amazon makes their profit on volume, not margin. However, my main line of argument wasn't that their margins were incredibly low. All I was saying is that one can't assume they are the same as a retail stores. The comment stemmed from someone justifying the 30% cut based on the retail store experience.

You can't make profits on volume without having good margins. With Amazon, you really have to look at the cash flow. Well, you have to do that with every company. Profits mean very little. Amazon pours most of its profits back into the company, so looking at that number tells you little.
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post #217 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

MS and Sony take roughly 70% of revenues for publishers making games for their online game stores.

Nor would they allow someone to open a rival game store on these platforms.

C.

Nor will Apple allow a rival App store, but I'm not disputing that. You haven't followed me, and I'm tired of explaining it, so I'll let it rest.
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post #218 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

It has a browser

Yeah.. you can buy them but you can't read them on the Kindle. The same way you can buy them using your iPad/iPhone browser without paying Apple 30% and you can read them. What's your point?!
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post #219 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Nor will Apple allow a rival App store, but I'm not disputing that. You haven't followed me, and I'm tired of explaining it, so I'll let it rest.

Sorry, don't get what you are trying to say.
Apple *are* allowing people to set up content shops inside the App store. That's what this discussion is about.

Apple's model is more open and less controlled, and takes similar or smaller revenue share than Amazon's or Microsoft and Sony.

C.
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post #220 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

You're wrong, you can buy DRM kindle or nook books at fictionwise.

False.

"Kindle (the Kindle will only read unencrypted MultiFormat eBooks from Fictionwise. Use the .mobi format.)"

http://www.fictionwise.com/help/help.htm

B&N is being a little weird about DRM on FictionWise. Not actually sure they are compatible with the Nook DRM which is bizzaro since B&N owns fictionwise.
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post #221 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

It has a browser

Too bad you won't be able to read Nook books on a Kindle...
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post #222 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

And why can't be Apple sued for anti competitive practices?

Anybody can be sued by anybody. Suing someone proves nothing. Winning the suit may prove something, but not always, at least, not until all appeals have been finished.

Asking a negative, as you've done here isn't the proper way to state it. The proper way is; why should Apple be sued for anti-competitive practices. That's very different. You have to come up with a real reason that would hold up in court. Simply saying that you feel it shouldn't be right isn't good enough.
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post #223 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Wow, they have to be happy for being allowed to be on App Store.

The fact that they are there shows that, yes, they are happy to be there.
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post #224 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

False.

"Kindle (the Kindle will only read unencrypted MultiFormat eBooks from Fictionwise. Use the .mobi format.)"

http://www.fictionwise.com/help/help.htm

B&N is being a little weird about DRM on FictionWise. Not actually sure they are compatible with the Nook DRM which is bizzaro since B&N owns fictionwise.

Ups, I was sure about Nook books because I have bought them on fictionwise.
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post #225 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phomet View Post

I still get my content the old fashioned way, torrents and mediafire.

Then I paypal the creator direct if I like the stuff.

Sure you do.
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post #226 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The fact that they are there shows that, yes, they are happy to be there.

A popular British expression is "crying all the way to the bank".

C.
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post #227 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phomet View Post

I still get my content the old fashioned way, torrents and mediafire.

Then I paypal the creator direct if I like the stuff.

Do you get paid only if your employer like your work?!
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post #228 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

As voluntarily as Netscape offered a version of their browser for Windows at a time when worldwide 98% of all computers used Windows, they certainly had a choice.

That makes no sense. There's no comparison here. 98% of the people using computers don't use Apple products. Not even close. The only reason why Apple has had the tablet market to itself was because they surprised everyone with the low pricing and usefulness of the product and ecosystem. This year, if other companies come out with comparable products at comparable prices, that situation may change. It's far more fluid than with PC's and Windows. It's way too early to know how this will pan out, so making that comparison now isn't useful.
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post #229 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

What?

It was a pretty simple question. It shouldn't have confused you.
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post #230 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Anybody can be sued by anybody. Suing someone proves nothing. Winning the suit may prove something, but not always, at least, not until all appeals have been finished.

Asking a negative, as you've done here isn't the proper way to state it. The proper way is; why should Apple be sued for anti-competitive practices. That's very different. You have to come up with a real reason that would hold up in court. Simply saying that you feel it shouldn't be right isn't good enough.

Well, here in Europe they can be sued for forcing to use the in app system and not allowing differente prices
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post #231 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Sorry, don't get what you are trying to say.
Apple *are* allowing people to set up content shops inside the App store. That's what this discussion is about.

Apple's model is more open and less controlled, and takes similar or smaller revenue share than Amazon's or Microsoft and Sony.

C.

Apps are content, but they do not permit stores that sell apps. Video is content, but the only way to purchase individual movies is through iTunes (but they do allow subscription services). You're not following me because you are painting everything with the same brush and not breaking things down their into individual market segments. "Content" is way too broad a topic to even begin discussing this.

I'm leaving this topic, the proof will be in the pudding (aka we'll see what happens).
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post #232 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Yeah.. you can buy them but you can't read them on the Kindle. The same way you can buy them using your iPad/iPhone browser without paying Apple 30% and you can read them. What's your point?!

Probably wont be able to on the iPad and iPhone. The Kindle and Nook apps are probably going to get pulled since I can't see how they can comply and make money.

Unless they assume that no one will buy via their apps for some reason. That doesn't strike me as likely.

Netflix is an interesting question. I bet most folks download the netflix app AFTER they get a Netflix subscription. They sure don't want a recurring 30% hit. My guess is that the easy out is to only offer $95 yearly subs on the app. That's a whole $0.88 off the normal (month to month) price so it's a "better" offer and meets the minimum requirements.
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post #233 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Ein? They doesn't have app stores. And as far as I know, you CAN buy books in other stores and use them on Kindles and Nooks and they don't force you to take a cut.

That's out and out wrong. Their bookstores on their devices are stores. We're talking about books, magazines, and whatever else that can be sold by subs, except insurance, Apple has denied that ability, as they should have.

As far as you know doesn't count. Show some evidence. For Sony as well. Oh, and Borders too.
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post #234 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:37am
My biggest problem with this is where do you draw the line? What about Netflix? Do they have to provide you with the ability to renew your subscription within the app? If so say goodbye to the Netflix app. Same thing with the Kindle app. Amazon is already paying 70% to the publishers. If they have to give 30% to Apple there is no profit in it for them.

I suppose you can give the Netflix app pass because they are only providing a portal to their web content and nothing ever gets downloaded to the phone. But if that is the case, would other content providers also be able to get around this rule as long as they never store the content to the device?

Does the Kindle app get a pass too? And if so why?

This rule raises a lot of questions. I think Apple either needs forgo the requirement that content providers must provide an option for in app purchase, or more clearly draw the line on what is allowed and what isn't.

*** I don't think Apple is being unreasonable here. If Apple brings publishers new customers, it deserves it's cut. Plus it costs Apple quite a bit to check each app for approval, so the 30% fee is necessary so they don't lose money on the app store. Also in app purchaces provide the best customer experience. However their are cases, like Netflix and Kindle, where in app purchaces just don't make sense. And I'd hate to see those apps pulled because of this rule.
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post #235 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

The problem with your slippery slope argument is that you haven't shown that the slope is actually slippery, so your argument amounts to little more than an attempt to create and play on fears.

That is pretty much how slippery slopes work. No one realizes it is slippery until it is too late.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #236 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Yes there is a Kindle app store. And you can buy Kindle and Nooks ebooks without paying Apple a cut.. use the device store!

I just went to my Kindle account. I don't see any books being offered other than kindle books. Can you show us where those Nook books can be purchased.
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post #237 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Probably wont be able to on the iPad and iPhone. The Kindle and Nook apps are probably going to get pulled since I can't see how they can comply and make money.

Unless they assume that no one will buy via their apps for some reason. That doesn't strike me as likely.

Netflix is an interesting question. I bet most folks download the netflix app AFTER they get a Netflix subscription. They sure don't want a recurring 30% hit. My guess is that the easy out is to only offer $95 yearly subs on the app. That's a whole $0.88 off the normal (month to month) price so it's a "better" offer and meets the minimum requirements.

Amazon cut is large enough for them to make money. Check the link I provided earlier.
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post #238 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

As far as you know doesn't count. Show some evidence. For Sony as well. Oh, and Borders too.

DRM'd fictionwise books can be read on Nook and Sony readers, borders ebooks with ADE can be read on Nook and Sony readers.

Non DRM books fromk any store can be read on Nook, Sony, Borders or Kindle
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post #239 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

You're wrong, you can buy DRM kindle or nook books at fictionwise.

Yes, and they pay Amazon or B&N for that ability. But the books can only be used on the appropriate readers I.e. Nook books on the Nook, and Kindle books on the kindle.
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post #240 of 571
2/15/11 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I just went to my Kindle account. I don't see any books being offered other than kindle books. Can you show us where those Nook books can be purchased.

I was referring to buying Kindle and Nook ebooks on iOS using Amazon and B&N sites, respectively. This is the case now, right?!
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