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Apple lobbies for offshore tax holiday to bring cash to US - Page 2

post #41 of 190
2/16/11 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

oh brother....

You can try to avoid going down the rabbit hole, but sometimes the rabbit comes up and bites you on the keister.
Please don't be insane.
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post #42 of 190
2/16/11 at 2:58pm
What has the U.S. ever done for Apple?
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post #43 of 190
2/16/11 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Apple benefits from so called "Free Trade Agreements" that do away with import taxes. Companies like Apple used to do quite a bit of manufacturing in the US because it didn't want to pay import taxes. So, the government caved to corporate demand and did away with these import taxes. Manufacturing went overseas, and all the taxes from wages and what not left with the jobs. Now the States and local governments are broke along with a good chunk of the population. Now, these greedy companies want to save by avoiding even more taxes? Ridiculous.

The states and local governments are broke because they spend like drunken sailors, not for lack of revenue.

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post #44 of 190
2/16/11 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

oh brother....

I don't claim to understand or know the US tax system. But, wow. In Australia, company tax is 32%. This is a flat rate and everyone business pays it. I can't believe Apple or any company could only pay 25% tax - no wonder US national debt is so high.

In addition, personally I think that the "tax holiday" idea is just pathetic. Those companies are currently laundering money overseas - if you ask me. They should be penalised by what ever your federal gov tax agency is called.

Just my Aussie 2cents worth.
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post #45 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

The government could use the money to improve public education and scholarship opportunities so Apple has a better domestic talent pool to hire from.

Ahh the standard liberal thinking that money is a fixed size pie. The profits are overseas and have already been taxed. The money is STAYING overseas because the US wants to tax it again. The choice is 1) a "tax holiday" where the money comes back to the US and the gov collects something like 5% and the money can then be reinvested in the US economy generating economic growth and further tax revenues, OR 2) the gov can tax 35% of nothing because the money will stay overseas and either be held or invested in growing other economies.

There are plenty of anti corporate Americans and an entire political party who will push for option 2 because they don't want rich companies getting off easy and the government needs the revenue. This is called shooting yourself in the foot.
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post #46 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:01pm
How long before these major corporations move their head office to Canada where the corporate tax is half what it is in the US?
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post #47 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eswinson View Post

I would rather the money go back to the shareholders so they can spend it on fast women, the best booze, expensive cars, cuban cigars and big yachts instead of wasting it on taxes.

I thought the idea was to spend the money here in the USA.

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post #48 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgberry View Post

I don't claim to understand or know the US tax system. But, wow. In Australia, company tax is 32%. This is a flat rate and everyone business pays it. I can't believe Apple or any company could only pay 25% tax - no wonder US national debt is so high.

In addition, personally I think that the "tax holiday" idea is just pathetic. Those companies are currently laundering money overseas - if you ask me. They should be penalised by what ever your federal gov tax agency is called.

Just my Aussie 2cents worth.

You have no clue. If Apple sells products in your country they pay yopur government 32% tax on the profits earned in your country. This seems fair to most people and most countries. The US gov does not think so. They think Apple should pay Aussie taxes on Aussie profits AND US taxes on Aussie profits. Other countries do not do this, and for good reasons. It is insanely stupid.

Now Apple can leave their Aussie profits down under, or they can bring them back to the US and pay the US taxes on the already taxed profits. They have chosen to keep the money overseas. That is good for you in Australia, it is bad for the US.
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post #49 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgberry View Post

I don't claim to understand or know the US tax system. But, wow. In Australia, company tax is 32%. This is a flat rate and everyone business pays it. I can't believe Apple or any company could only pay 25% tax - no wonder US national debt is so high.

In addition, personally I think that the "tax holiday" idea is just pathetic. Those companies are currently laundering money overseas - if you ask me. They should be penalised by what ever your federal gov tax agency is called.

Just my Aussie 2cents worth.

The dirty little secret is that most US corporations don't pay nearly that much, since the tax code is so loaded with loopholes. Opponents of corporate taxes will never tell you that, though. They just quote the book rate, as though it was meaningful.
Please don't be insane.
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post #50 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

The states and local governments are broke because they spend like drunken sailors, not for lack of revenue.

oh brother... again.

Just as an example - the great state of Texas, the pinnicle of fiscal conservatism... has a state deficit equal to california(percentage wise) the pinnicle of liberal spending(to those un-informed). Are you calling Texans drunken sailors.. are you messing with Texas?

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/polit...eep-to-571.ece

They are broke because of the largest recession since 1980 and possible 1932 has reduced tax revenue.

Damn... another rabbit hole - So you have a choice, cut back and continue to spiral down, or keep the motor going and run deficits and payback in good times. The problem is we never pay back in good times, we give tax breaks in good times.... what a scam. Get me out of this rabbit hole.
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post #51 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by W1ll1am View Post

So Apple needs a 30% cut app developers hard work, but wants to only pay 5% tax for a whole year? I would bet anything that these corporations once again get their way, and that this gets extended for more than a year. I would also like a "Tax Holiday" for next year, and I promise to buy Apple products with the extra cash in my pocket. No seriously I Promise.

Me too!
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post #52 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:13pm
Why are we to believe they are going to spend all of this money in the US, and not just shuffle it around to other subsidiaries in other, faster-growing countries? If they lower the tax they should stipulate that the money should be spent here in the US and not anywhere they want.
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post #53 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by W1ll1am View Post

Can I get an Amen

No but I can suggest you get an econ 101 book and learn to not cheer for policies that directly harm you.
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post #54 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualie View Post

How long before these major corporations move their head office to Canada where the corporate tax is half what it is in the US?

Hmmmm it does appear that Canada has a lower rate, whether the 'effective' rate is lower is another question.

Plus, how is health care paid in Canada, in US, the company provides and that cost is tax free(ie it can deduct from their taxes).

Guess Im saying its very hard to compare country rates at the basic level.
Need 'tax experts' to figure out the true advantage.
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post #55 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:15pm
Our philosophy is simplewhen Apple brings a new subscriber to the app, Apple earns a 30 percent share; when the publisher brings an existing or new subscriber to the app, the publisher keeps 100 percent and Apple earns nothing, said Steve Jobs, Apples CEO.

Our philosophy is simpleYou make money, we take a 30 percent share; when you make nothing, you keep 100 percent and we get nothing, said Barak Obama, America's CEO.
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post #56 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddych View Post

Because those profits were realized overseas and and taxed at local jurisdiction's rates already. To bring them in, they have to pay additional taxes on top of what they already paid to local jurisdictions. If they don't bring them in, they dont have to pay (which is what they are doing now).

Also, I pay well over 40% of my income to taxes, is it fair that I pay 45% while you pay 26%?

Google pays 2.4% tax on money (88% of foreign earnings) they transfer from Ireland to Bermuda via The Netherlands.

Legal yes, evil ???

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post #57 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shodson View Post

Why are we to believe they are going to spend all of this money in the US, and not just shuffle it around to other subsidiaries in other, faster-growing countries? If they lower the tax they should stipulate that the money should be spent here in the US and not anywhere they want.

Because if they were going to spend it outside the US they would not bring it back to the US and pay a 5% tax on it first. They would (or would have already) shift it to wherever they want to invest it, bypassing the US.
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post #58 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciwiz View Post

Oh the irony....Apple (and others) not wanting to pay 30%.

Maybe IRS should make a rule that any company with investors on US territory must use the IRS App Store and pay 30% to the IRS?

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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post #59 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Google pays 2.4% tax on money the transfer from Ireland to Bermuda via The Netherlands.

Legal yes, evil ???

The US collects taxes on business conducted outside the US and that has already been taxed by the local jurisdictions. Legal yes, fiscally stupid, yes, evil ????

How would you like it if Canada wanted to impose an income tax on your US income after you have already paid US income taxes? That would make no sense right? But somehow it is different for Google Ireland?
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post #60 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddych View Post

Because those profits were realized overseas and and taxed at local jurisdiction's rates already. To bring them in, they have to pay additional taxes on top of what they already paid to local jurisdictions. If they don't bring them in, they dont have to pay (which is what they are doing now).

Also, I pay well over 40% of my income to taxes, is it fair that I pay 45% while you pay 26%?

Well, the truth of the matter is that we are all paying approximately the same percent that you are, when you include federal, state, local, property, sales tax, etc. The question is who is more likely to afford it? The person that is making minimum wage and struggling to make ends meet or the rich billionaire who can own a mansion, abandon it for 10 years to demolish it to build another house? I don't understand how anyone can defend any corporation when it comes to taxes because no corporation pays the actual amount of what they are supposed to because of all the loopholes built into the system and their ability to move their money off-shore to not pay taxes.

I think that you are both talking about different things. You are talking about all taxes as I mentioned above and lamewing is likely talking about his tax bracket. The highest tax bracket is 35% and that's for people making close to 400K/year or more.
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post #61 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIaddict View Post

You have no clue. If Apple sells products in your country they pay yopur government 32% tax on the profits earned in your country. This seems fair to most people and most countries. The US gov does not think so. They think Apple should pay Aussie taxes on Aussie profits AND US taxes on Aussie profits. Other countries do not do this, and for good reasons. It is insanely stupid.

Now Apple can leave their Aussie profits down under, or they can bring them back to the US and pay the US taxes on the already taxed profits. They have chosen to keep the money overseas. That is good for you in Australia, it is bad for the US.

Countries and USA have bilateral agreements on avoiding dual taxation. So a person/corporation who earns $xxx in US pays tax on that earning and the same person, if he/she earns $yyy in, say Australia, pay Aussie tax.

But the problem here is countries like China and India offer tax incentives to US companies where the companies will not pay tax for 5 yrs or so during tax holiday period, and hence those companies keep money there by paying nothing in taxes. If the company wants to bring those earnings to US, the US government wants to tax that amount, because the US company did not pay any tax on that amount.

Any private corporation is evil when it comes to money. That includes Apple !
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post #62 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:29pm
If any corporation has already paid taxes on revenue in whatever country it was earned wishes to bring that money into the US, 35% on top would be a little onerous. Let's put it this way: If you had a job overseas, made about 100k, and paid 30k in taxes to the British Government, and then wanted to move your bank account to the US and were forced to pay another 24.5k to the US government, you'd probably think twice.

Another important point to consider. If the money stays overseas, the government sees $0. If 1 trillion dollars is brought back into the US and taxed at 5%, the government sees $50 billion, and the corporations in question are still essentially being taxed twice on that revenue. I say negotiate 10%, earn $100 billion in revenue and keep slashing discretionary spending and non-discretionary spending alike.
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post #63 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:29pm
I think one best way to do it: if a US company sells a product inside or outside US, it has to pay tax on that revenue irrespective of where the product is sold. If an iPhone is made by apple and sold, it has to pay tax.

Apple simply cannot state that it sold 10 million iphones while paying tax on sale of 1 million phones in US.
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post #64 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Our philosophy is simplewhen Apple brings a new subscriber to the app, Apple earns a 30 percent share; when the publisher brings an existing or new subscriber to the app, the publisher keeps 100 percent and Apple earns nothing, said Steve Jobs, Apples CEO.

Our philosophy is simpleYou make money, we take a 30 percent share; when you make nothing, you keep 100 percent and we get nothing, said Barak Obama, America's CEO.

Did you think that up all yourself? Was it a homework assignment?

Yea, I know, don't feed the trolls, sorry.
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post #65 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertP View Post

I would say that Apple is throwing its weight around, using that money as a bargaining chip. So, maybe the legislative lobbying effort will be successful with some economic benefits to some people, but it is still a form of corruption.

I think that one of the things the consortium is trying to do is educate senators and reps about the benefits of the tax holiday. There is so much disinformation out there. Here you can see people opposing it for the same reasons that they should be in support of it.

The bottom line is that the influx of cash into the US from the tax holiday will create more taxable income in the long run and will contribute to our economy, thereby hopefully reducing the overall tax burden on the individual taxpayer.

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post #66 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

at least Apple's not sending all the money to tax haven... like Google.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...1043146825.htm

5% is still way more than 2.4% Google's paying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braeburn_Capital

"Apple created the company on April 6, 2006 to better manage its assets and to avoid certain California state taxes.[1] At the end of 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008, Apple's cash and short-term investments were valued at US$8.3 billion,[2] US$10.1 billion,[2] US$18.45 billion,[3] and US$24.490 billion,[4] respectively. As of September 26, 2009, its cash holdings were reported to be US$33.992 billion.[5]"

Sure they're not dodging Federal taxes, but California taxes are effectively being dodged even though the company is headquartered in California and employes tens of thousands of Californians (who probably do pay their CA taxes).
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post #67 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eehd View Post

Well, the truth of the matter is that we are all paying approximately the same percent that you are, when you include federal, state, local, property, sales tax, etc. The question is who is more likely to afford it? The person that is making minimum wage and struggling to make ends meet or the rich billionaire who can own a mansion, abandon it for 10 years to demolish it to build another house? I don't understand how anyone can defend any corporation when it comes to taxes because no corporation pays the actual amount of what they are supposed to because of all the loopholes built into the system and their ability to move their money off-shore to not pay taxes.

I think that you are both talking about different things. You are talking about all taxes as I mentioned above and lamewing is likely talking about his tax bracket. The highest tax bracket is 35% and that's for people making close to 400K/year or more.

I'm talking about Federal + State + City income tax. I haven't included sales, property tax. I'm talking about what my paycheck ends up being after deductions compared to what my stated income is.

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post #68 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:41pm
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Precisely. A tax holiday for the entire country, in addition to a complete government shut down is in order. It's amazing what we can do if we're not saddled with regulations and taxes.

What does the US do without government regulation?

- Slavery and segregation from unregulated civil rights
- The Depression and regular recessions caused by unregulated banks and markets
- The "Dirty 30s" dust bowl from unregulated farming
- Cities enveloped in 70s toxic smog from unregulated car makers
- Unnecessary death and injury from unregulated workplace and product safety
- Failure to respond to natural disasters like Katrina from unregulated emergency services
- Failure to prevent manmade disasters like the Gulf Coast BP spill from unregulated industry

Sure, regulations have to make sense, but saying government and "regulation" is inherently bad is simply ignorant propaganda voiced by people who support absurd, unconstitutional regulations (affecting drug use, sex, entertainment, scientific education) and are against any regulations that clearly do help people and society (regulation of banks, the insurance industry, employee and product safety).
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post #69 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffroDH View Post

If any corporation has already paid taxes on revenue in whatever country it was earned wishes to bring that money into the US, 35% on top would be a little onerous. Let's put it this way: If you had a job overseas, made about 100k, and paid 30k in taxes to the British Government, and then wanted to move your bank account to the US and were forced to pay another 24.5k to the US government, you'd probably think twice.

Another important point to consider. If the money stays overseas, the government sees $0. If 1 trillion dollars is brought back into the US and taxed at 5%, the government sees $50 billion, and the corporations in question are still essentially being taxed twice on that revenue. I say negotiate 10%, earn $100 billion in revenue and keep slashing discretionary spending and non-discretionary spending alike.

The thing is multinational corporations don't pay taxes in the countries they earn the money in, they use transfer pricing schemes to minimise tax paid.

In the example I gave earlier with Google, they pay 2.4% in tax.

I would like to keep 97.6% of the money I earn.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #70 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by r00fus View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braeburn_Capital

"Apple created the company on April 6, 2006 to better manage its assets and to avoid certain California state taxes.[1] At the end of 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008, Apple's cash and short-term investments were valued at US$8.3 billion,[2] US$10.1 billion,[2] US$18.45 billion,[3] and US$24.490 billion,[4] respectively. As of September 26, 2009, its cash holdings were reported to be US$33.992 billion.[5]"

Sure they're not dodging Federal taxes, but California taxes are effectively being dodged even though the company is headquartered in California and employes tens of thousands of Californians (who probably do pay their CA taxes).

At least it's a Nevada company not some remote company in Ireland....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_technology
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post #71 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by flthere View Post

I think one best way to do it: if a US company sells a product inside or outside US, it has to pay tax on that revenue irrespective of where the product is sold. If an iPhone is made by apple and sold, it has to pay tax.

Apple simply cannot state that it sold 10 million iphones while paying tax on sale of 1 million phones in US.

When you do stupid things like that, it only creates an incentive for US companies to make products overseas and sell them directly to other countries through an affiliated set of foreign companies.

For example, Microsoft licenses Windows to a subsidiary in Ireland, which then licenses the rest of the world, paying virtually no US tax despite making billions.

Tax policy clearly needs a rewrite, but if you think you can raise everyone else's taxes and that they'll just pay them you are stupid. Our tax code is so complex that it penalized companies that do good and perform well while encouraging abuse of loopholes and doing things that are not in the company's own interest (or society, or the US specifically), such as buying inventory they don't need, or withholding domestic investment.
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post #72 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by flthere View Post

Countries and USA have bilateral agreements on avoiding dual taxation. So a person/corporation who earns $xxx in US pays tax on that earning and the same person, if he/she earns $yyy in, say Australia, pay Aussie tax.

That is not true at a corporate level, and not even completely true at a individual level. The US typically double taxes profits that are repatriated, most other countries do not. Most of the tax shelter games delay the double tax by delaying the repatriation of the money, in hopes of a future tax holiday that will let them bring it back to the US.
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post #73 of 190
2/16/11 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by flthere View Post

I think one best way to do it: if a US company sells a product inside or outside US, it has to pay tax on that revenue irrespective of where the product is sold. If an iPhone is made by apple and sold, it has to pay tax.

Apple simply cannot state that it sold 10 million iphones while paying tax on sale of 1 million phones in US.

Brilliant idea. So what you are saying is you want 100% of the international businesses currently in the US to leave? Who needs jobs? and no I don't mean Steve Jobs! Under your plan Apple would simply become a Bermuda company or a grand caymen company or an irish company or whatever. They could maintain a foreign subsidiary in the US to sell the 1 million US products but they would not be a US company for the other 9 million. The US trade deficit would balloon, the unemployement rate would skyrocket, tax receipts would plummet, and the costs of social programs for the newly poor would explode. Great idea huh? In fact this is exactly what Obama has been proposing since the campain. So you are in good company.
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post #74 of 190
2/16/11 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Google pays 2.4% tax on money (88% of foreign earnings) they transfer from Ireland to Bermuda via The Netherlands.

Legal yes, evil ???

You're not evil for claiming all available tax deductions to you, neither is Google.

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post #75 of 190
2/16/11 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwald View Post

Thats basicly where Apples money is right now. They just want to "launder" it for 5% into the US. So no, Apple is not the "nicer" company while google is the evil monster, both of them try to make the most money possible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_...he_arrangement

I don't see Apple creating a company in Bermuda to license their technology to an Irish Apple subsidiary...

For a company that's essentially a result of a Standford University research to avoid paying tax in the US, that's a whole other level of greed.
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post #76 of 190
2/16/11 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_...he_arrangement

I don't see Apple creating a company in Bermuda to license their technology to an Irish Apple subsidiary...

For a company that's essentially a result of a Standford University research to avoid paying tax in the US, that's a whole other level of greed.

Since Apple mainly deals with consumer physical goods, this can't be easily done. If they could, they would. Remember that a corporation operates for the benefit of the shareholders, not the general public of the US.

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post #77 of 190
2/16/11 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_...he_arrangement

I don't see Apple creating a company in Bermuda to license their technology to an Irish Apple subsidiary...

For a company that's essentially a result of a Standford University research to avoid paying tax in the US, that's a whole other level of greed.

The two parts you are missing. 1) this is for sales of non-US assets to non-US customers. 2) "without paying U.S. tax on the profits unless and until they are remitted to the U.S."

If an Irish company sells products in the US they pay US taxes on the profits. They do not have to also pay Irish taxes on the same profits. Pretty much only the US tries to double tax like that and hence only US companies need to engage in such strategies to reduce their taxes to internationally competitive levels.

Personally I would rather the US be the tax haven and have all the companies some here. Another word for comapnies is "employer" but the greedy american voters just want to see high tax rates on evil companies and they don't care about job creation or trade deficits.
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post #78 of 190
2/16/11 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddych View Post

I think that one of the things the consortium is trying to do is educate senators and reps about the benefits of the tax holiday. There is so much disinformation out there. Here you can see people opposing it for the same reasons that they should be in support of it.

The bottom line is that the influx of cash into the US from the tax holiday will create more taxable income in the long run and will contribute to our economy, thereby hopefully reducing the overall tax burden on the individual taxpayer.

As AI has mentioned in its article

"A tax holiday would bring a substantial amount of cash back to the United States and paying that out to shareholders is good for the economy," said the study's co-author Kristin Forbes, who Forbes noted is an economics professor at MIT's Sloan School of Management and was a member of President George W. Bush's council of economic advisers. "But if you're a politician claiming this will create a lot of jobs or new investment, it isn't supported by the data."

I do have a financial portfolio, so I probably would benefit indirectly. Most American citizens do not have substantial stock holdings. That fact needs to be factored in.

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post #79 of 190
2/16/11 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

The government could use the money to improve public education and scholarship opportunities so Apple has a better domestic talent pool to hire from.

What part of "tax holiday" dont you understand. It means the government gets squat. Let me the guess the money is going to trickle down to the masses. Yea ok, I also have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.
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post #80 of 190
2/16/11 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

What part of "tax holiday" dont you understand. It means the government gets squat. Let me the guess the money is going to trickle down to the masses. Yea ok, I also have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

I would love to sell you something, anything. The "holiday" would give the US 5% of hundreds of billions, or more, veses 35% of $0. Which one would you rather have? The other 95% will come into the US verses 100% stayiong in other countries. Which one would you rather have?

I think that is MY bridge you are trying to sell, and I think you owe me some serious back taxes for your past use
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