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Use of RFID in Apple's iPhone 5 expected to have a 'unique' twist

post #1 of 65
Thread Starter 
Apple is expected to include near-field communications technology like radio-frequency identification (RFID) in its next-generation iPhone, but with a different approach to the feature than has been seen in RFID-powered Android phones, according to a new report.

Analyst Brian White with Ticonderoga Securities issued a note to investors on Thursday from the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain. He noted that there has been a rising interest in near-field communications (NFC) at this year's show.

White said that his sources have indicated to him that the next iPhone will include NFC technology. However, Apple's approach will reportedly have "a twist that will make it unique versus his peers." White did not give any indication as to what the "twist" could be.

He did note that earlier this week, it was revealed that the forthcoming Samsung Galaxy S II will feature NFC technology, while he said Google has pushed RFID as technology that "has the opportunity to revolutionize electronic commerce and payments." But the rumor would suggest that Apple is looking to offer more than an e-wallet for payment processing at retail stores.

Last November, one rumor claimed that Apple could use NFC technology in both its future iPhones and Macs to allow RFID-enabled "remote computing." It was said the rumored technology would allow users to securely turn a nearby Mac into their own personal computer, complete with custom settings, personal passwords, and even desktop backgrounds.

Apple has also filed patents related to NFC technology, including one discovered last July which would allow users to obtain information about a range of products wirelessly and instantly. Examples of potential uses for the service, called "Products+," included obtaining information about a product to receiving promotions and coupons.

The Cupertino, Calif.-based iPhone maker has also hired experts on near-field communications, and was even rumored to be testing iPhone models with RFID chips as recently as August.

Also in his note issued on Thursday, White noted that Softbank has issued all 20,000 of its employees both an iPhone and iPad from Apple. He said the news is "a sign of things to come across enterprises," predicting further corporate adoption of Apple's iOS devices.
post #2 of 65
Yes. It will also include Steve's own RDF.
post #3 of 65
Another shocker: Apple innovating.

But seriously when I saw the rumors of an iPhone nano or mini I thought, what's the point? Then, as I was planning what to take on a trip abroad, my iPhone or iPad or both, it struck me. When traveling, the smaller iPhone would be the perfect companion to an iPad. Especially if they could be linked in some way. Otherwise you are carrying around functions in both devices that are largely duplicative. You don't really want a phone in your iPad, but a linked little buddy that makes calls but has a little screen would be a perfect companion. You have the iPad for your big screen-needing functions.
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post #4 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Last November, one rumor claimed that Apple could use NFC technology in both its future iPhones and Macs to allow RFID-enabled "remote computing." It was said the rumored technology would allow users to securely turn a nearby Mac into their own personal computer, complete with custom settings, personal passwords, and even desktop backgrounds.

This can be done and it is done in research environments! I hope Apple introduces this system to the mass market. Pinch of salt: look for distances less than 20-30cm.
post #5 of 65
Memos going out today from the CEOs at Google, MSFT, Motorola, HTC, Samsung et. al:

"Order new copiers."
post #6 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Another shocker: Apple innovating.

But seriously when I saw the rumors of an iPhone nano or mini I thought, what's the point? Then, as I was planning what to take on a trip abroad, my iPhone or iPad or both, it struck me. When traveling, the smaller iPhone would be the perfect companion to an iPad. Especially if they could be linked in some way. Otherwise you are carrying around functions in both devices that are largely duplicative. You don't really want a phone in your iPad, but a linked little buddy that makes calls but has a little screen would be a perfect companion. You have the iPad for your big screen-needing functions.

This was one of the things that interested me about HP's future offerings....

Not really the tap to transfer thing, although you can throw that in if you want, but being able to get texts/calls on your tablet from your phone without having to say, take it out of your pocket or go pick it up off the charger at home, etc.

I mean it would be up to someone else to see what all you can do with that interoperability, but I could easily envision people buying tablet/phone as a combo if the integration between the devices offered enough added value.

That seems like great motivation for companies to get that right and make it a selling point that enables you to sell 2 devices rather than one.

Right now I'd like to bet on Apple being the ones to get that right (HP just has a toe in the door IMO, because that Pre isn't up to snuff) But I can't be sure.

Makes all the sense in the world though. Hopefully iOS 5....
post #7 of 65
Apple is going to use its large server farm to process all transactions in the United States, and its 60 billion to start a bank and provide credit to consumers and discounts on their products. That way everything with actually go through Apple.

Probably not, but lets start the rumor here.
post #8 of 65
On a more serious note: Would it be possible for NFC to handle high volume, near-instantaneous syncing between iOS devices?
post #9 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Another shocker: Apple innovating.

But seriously when I saw the rumors of an iPhone nano or mini I thought, what's the point? Then, as I was planning what to take on a trip abroad, my iPhone or iPad or both, it struck me. When traveling, the smaller iPhone would be the perfect companion to an iPad. Especially if they could be linked in some way. Otherwise you are carrying around functions in both devices that are largely duplicative. You don't really want a phone in your iPad, but a linked little buddy that makes calls but has a little screen would be a perfect companion. You have the iPad for your big screen-needing functions.

The iPhone isn't that big...how many people need two phones just for traveling?

Now if they sold an iPhone that was iPad nano size (previous gen), which was like $100 bucks w/o a contract and I could just throw my SIM card in it, that would be interesting.
post #10 of 65
What could RFID be used for? Social networking? If not, why? If so, why? Other suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

On a more serious note: Would it be possible for NFC to handle high volume, near-instantaneous syncing between iOS devices?

The data rate for NFC is low. It creates a very small looped, secure connection.
post #11 of 65
The unique twist is that it is STILL inherently insecure, it is STILL a spychip in essence, and you are STILL best served WITHOUT RFID/NFC!


In review, for your final exam:

RFID/NFC is nothing but a spychip -- having one in a phone isn't much different than being chipped like a dog, see:
http://spychips.com - how RFID will compromise privacy, security, freedom

and watch the free documentary movie that covers this topic:
http://freedomtofascism.com America: Freedom to Fascism

RFID/NFC is also inherently insecure, just watch:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi...easily_hacked/
post #12 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Also in his note issued on Thursday, White noted that Softbank has issued all 20,000 of its employees both an iPhone and iPad from Apple. He said the news is "a sign of things to come across enterprises," predicting further corporate adoption of Apple's iOS devices.

Nice chunk of revenue from one entity.
post #13 of 65
The chip should be removable like a sim for those who don't want it or need to transfer it to another device or when disposing of an old device, changing bank accounts etc.

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post #14 of 65
Examples where you could use RFID

1. App links - You go into a restaurant chain and on the way in there is a board advertising their App for the iPhone saying 'swipe your phone here for the free app' etc. So you wave your iphone over it and it pops up with the app store on the phone and loads up the app for you to download.

2. Buying tickets - You buy a ticket online then go for your flight/train etc and swipe the phone to check in

3. Facebook - Auto 'check in' at a location by just swiping your iPhone

You then have the run of the mill uses e.g parking meters etc

Of course for any 'secure' transactions RFID is purely an identifier and must be backed up with user authorisation as RFID information can easily be cloned. This is why, when grocery shopping, a combination of bar code and RFID is used for self checkouts to make sure your not retagging an RFID on a 12 pack of stella as a box of cornflakes

It would be good if the RFID on the iPhone was programmable or could hold/present different ID's for different apps. An example would be that you send a one time RFID key encrypted with a PIN along with a purchase and when you collect it it matches the RFID and your pin and releases the purchase. This RFID is then never used again. Not sure if this is something that can be achieved with current systems.
post #15 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple is expected to include near-field communications technology like radio-frequency identification (RFID) in its next-generation iPhone...

...However, Apple's approach will reportedly have "a twist that will make it unique versus his peers."...

...one rumor claimed that Apple could use NFC technology in both its future iPhones and Macs to allow RFID-enabled "remote computing." It was said the rumored technology would allow users to securely turn a nearby Mac into their own personal computer, complete with custom settings, personal passwords, and even desktop backgrounds.

...which would allow users to obtain information about a range of products wirelessly and instantly. Examples of potential uses for the service, called "Products+..."

Twist and shout!

I am down for a twist from Apple - I think there is a potential for much more than just an eWalllet (although that is pretty cool too). I can see a lot of personalization capabilities in environments (remember the Gates house music/art), simple tracking in an office or home (this stuff has to be used in very close proximity so I don't see Big Bro in this). I can see tracking medical records for emergency access (do need to watch Big Bro closer here) and possibly ID (the way the new passports work - but with GOOD security) that could be incorporated with dynamic security systems. I am sure there are tons of ideas that I have not begun to think here.

We will have to watch carefully to make sure we don't get 'strip searched' at the airport in a whole different way.

I think with reasonable regulation (and an opt-in only system) those ethical and security issues can be dealt with.
post #16 of 65
Hey, if they include RFID capabilities in hardware, why not open up for developers to make full use of it? In shopping it can be used to read existing RFID much like bar code. In supply chains, the iPhone can be the device to use without additional hardware. They may replace bar code in apple stores all together in favour of RFID. Documentation of all sorts of things, stock keeping, delivery registration...

And with the same capabilities in iPad, I trust these devices will flow into all sorts of warehouses, transport companies, logistics and ... Well ... I NEED DEVELOPERS FOR ALL MY IDEAS! And time. And money.

This is great news if they do this!
post #17 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

The data rate for NFC is low. It creates a very small looped, secure connection.

Good point, but it might be the digital key to open a higher-bandwidth connection the NC datacenter to complete a "machine sync". Aside from Verizon's slower data speeds of course... Zzzzzing!

(Before any one starts crying I was just joking about Verizon so calm down....)
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post #18 of 65
Has a global standard for NFC in credit cards been developed and adopted yet? What about encryption standards? Will Apple's NFC be "more secure" than others, so much that a standards war is imminent? I'll wait for a long time before I take a chance on someone eavesdropping on my credit card transactions. Is it so much of a bother to pull out the credit card, rather than the phone, just to run the transaction? Also, how many of you have to show ID with your credit card transactions? Not many actually, but I can see that you will have to pull out your ID every time you produce a phone with NFC - this will actually seem more of a bother than just swiping your card as usual. Many questions are unanswered, and Apple is usually not the first to the table with untested technology, unless they are inventing the technology in the first place as disruptive technology.
post #19 of 65
So how many of you want google knowing your buying habit with an e-wallet feature built into a android device. Not only will they know your location and which websites you may frequent, they will have access to your buying habits so they can market to you even more focused than ever. Imagine you walking by a store that using e-wallet transaction and a advertisement pops up on your phone tell you they have deal on the product you buy all the time in the store you just walked by.

Hell I hat that googlemail read a transaction receipt that was email to me and then stated placing ads base on the receipt. BTW, I made the transaction on another computer which was not mine and the only way google new i bought this product is because of this email since I never bought this product in the past or will in the future. I stopped using googlemail after that.
post #20 of 65
"Apple's approach will reportedly have "a twist that will make it unique versus his peers.""

Apple coming up with some new "twist" that revolutionizes the conceptual space of some technology? Gee - who would have ever guessed???
post #21 of 65
"Use of RFID in Apple's iPhone 5 expected to have a 'unique' twist"

No offense, but that just seems like the kind of prediction anyone could make without fear of contradiction. If Apple implements RFID at all, there is bound to be something about their implementation that'll qualify as a unique twist.
post #22 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Has a global standard for NFC in credit cards been developed and adopted yet? What about encryption standards? Will Apple's NFC be "more secure" than others, so much that a standards war is imminent? I'll wait for a long time before I take a chance on someone eavesdropping on my credit card transactions. Is it so much of a bother to pull out the credit card, rather than the phone, just to run the transaction? Also, how many of you have to show ID with your credit card transactions? Not many actually, but I can see that you will have to pull out your ID every time you produce a phone with NFC - this will actually seem more of a bother than just swiping your card as usual. Many questions are unanswered, and Apple is usually not the first to the table with untested technology, unless they are inventing the technology in the first place as disruptive technology.

Actually there are credit cards today which have RFID chips in them and you can buy a scanner and easily steal people credit card information without even touching the card. You just need to come within a few feet of them and you can retrieve the necessary information. The same can also be done if the device is in a phone. BTW, this is already happening people are getting their CC information stolen with portable scanners.

I actually show my ID most times I do a CC transaction since my CC has written on check ID and most people then ask to check ID which I am happy to show.
post #23 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by xZu View Post

Apple is going to use its large server farm to process all transactions in the United States, and its 60 billion to start a bank and provide credit to consumers and discounts on their products. That way everything with actually go through Apple.

Probably not, but lets start the rumor here.

Sounds pretty "evil," but I can so see iBank. ) lol I don't think 60Billion is enough to open such credit. At least few Trillions.
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post #24 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Examples where you could use RFID

1. App links - You go into a restaurant chain and on the way in there is a board advertising their App for the iPhone saying 'swipe your phone here for the free app' etc. So you wave your iphone over it and it pops up with the app store on the phone and loads up the app for you to download.

2. Buying tickets - You buy a ticket online then go for your flight/train etc and swipe the phone to check in

3. Facebook - Auto 'check in' at a location by just swiping your iPhone

You then have the run of the mill uses e.g parking meters etc

Of course for any 'secure' transactions RFID is purely an identifier and must be backed up with user authorisation as RFID information can easily be cloned. This is why, when grocery shopping, a combination of bar code and RFID is used for self checkouts to make sure your not retagging an RFID on a 12 pack of stella as a box of cornflakes

It would be good if the RFID on the iPhone was programmable or could hold/present different ID's for different apps. An example would be that you send a one time RFID key encrypted with a PIN along with a purchase and when you collect it it matches the RFID and your pin and releases the purchase. This RFID is then never used again. Not sure if this is something that can be achieved with current systems.

What exactly is the attraction with these "check-in" apps? Is it the logical result of helicopter parenting? Helicopter everything? How horrible.

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post #25 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFreeman View Post

This can be done and it is done in research environments! I hope Apple introduces this system to the mass market. Pinch of salt: look for distances less than 20-30cm.

I suspect that it isn't going to be exactly how some rumors are saying.

Some sites are painting this as going up to any computer, well Mac, anywhere in the world and boom, all your stuff is there. But that can be a huge amount of data and even with something like MobileMe I don't see it as really plausible. Especially with the talk of taking all or most of MobileMe free.

What I think the real game would be is being able to use your phone as a log in key. Either for local user setup on a single computer or for networked accounts off a server. Depending on the environment it could be the only log in or added security. Perhaps even set up to log you out if that 'key' moves beyond a set distance. Such as you walk out of your office. Places like work with sensitive info would probably love that kind of set up.

On the consumer side, a possible twist could be that not only could it send payment info but perhaps also coupons, member cards etc. My local grocery has one of those reward card gigs. You get special prices, coupons, reward bucks. They would probably love to save the paper etc and just have it all in your online account. Maybe even set up an app where you could tag your favorite brands as you shop then get 'deal' alerts. When you go shop you could have a shopping list set up in the app. At the checkout you tap and the system recognizes your member number and pulls your points etc. Tap again in your bank app and pay.

As weird as it sounds, if this is where they are goin I hope they put all this in the iPad as well and not after an extra years wait. I would wait until summer for the iPad if I had to if it meant no more feature delays so the iPhone gets it first. Or put the phone in April and the iPad in May or June. Yes yes I know the iPad is less portable but some folks have dumb phones and spend the extra money on iPad data so why cut them out.
post #26 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

The unique twist is that it is STILL inherently insecure, it is STILL a spychip in essence, and you are STILL best served WITHOUT RFID/NFC!


In review, for your final exam:

RFID/NFC is nothing but a spychip -- having one in a phone isn't much different than being chipped like a dog, see:
http://spychips.com - how RFID will compromise privacy, security, freedom

and watch the free documentary movie that covers this topic:
http://freedomtofascism.com America: Freedom to Fascism

RFID/NFC is also inherently insecure, just watch:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi...easily_hacked/


Are you out of your mind!


Note: Please understand the difference between NFC and RFID! They are two different things! Your video is also about RFID not NFC.
post #27 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Another shocker: Apple innovating.

Funny Robin...In other news: Deliveries of toilet paper increase to RIM's HQ!

Best
post #28 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

The iPhone isn't that big...how many people need two phones just for traveling?

Now if they sold an iPhone that was iPad nano size (previous gen), which was like $100 bucks w/o a contract and I could just throw my SIM card in it, that would be interesting.

Pay as you go. That is the version they are missing.

$200 tops, no contract. Even if they restricted data to wifi only, a lot of folks would go for it.
post #29 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot View Post

I think there is a potential for much more than just an eWalllet ... I can see a lot of personalization capabilities in environments (remember the Gates house music/art), simple tracking in an office or home ...

Agree - Apple has built an ecosystem around their products/services. Having other consumer electronic devices recognize the user and adapt accordingly is consistent with Apple's strategy.

The idea of digital photo frames that adjust to your iPhoto collection is not far fetched.

They could work with car companies to not only better integrate the iDevice with cars' radios/video players, but also adjust electronic seats automatically to the driver/passenger, move the mirrors, etc. It could even be used to start the car, lock the doors, etc if you misplace your keys.

Another example closer to the eWallet could be an alternative to EZ Pass

As mentioned previously, opt-in/out would be critical.
post #30 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

... being able to get texts/calls on your tablet from your phone without having to say, take it out of your pocket ...

I've thought of this a few times myself.

If I'm on the train, using my iPad on my lap, and I have my iPhone in my pocket, it seems a bit silly that I have to put down the tablet and pull my phone out of my pocket when the tablet could just as easily throw up a notification. Same goes for email.

Although it might look impressive to be sitting there juggling multiple iOS devices, it would make more sense if each was aware of the other and the messages could appear on the one that's actually in use.
post #31 of 65
Here is the twist: these types of sales transactions involve 2 devices an "e-wallet" and a Point of Sale device.
An iPhone is the e-wallet.
An iPad is the P.O.S. System.

The state of the art in the P.O.S. Industry leaves much to be desired.
The best solutions are still clunky and expensive.
Apple's iPad based solution will be cheaper and lightyears better.
post #32 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

The unique twist is that it is STILL inherently insecure, it is STILL a spychip in essence, and you are STILL best served WITHOUT RFID/NFC!


In review, for your final exam:

RFID/NFC is nothing but a spychip -- having one in a phone isn't much different than being chipped like a dog, see:
http://spychips.com - how RFID will compromise privacy, security, freedom

and watch the free documentary movie that covers this topic:
http://freedomtofascism.com America: Freedom to Fascism

RFID/NFC is also inherently insecure, just watch:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi...easily_hacked/

Its entirely possible for you to make these points in a less ranting raving sort of way.

You're completely right that putting an RFID chip in the phone in your pocket is really no different than implanting one under your skin, 90% of the day.

However my research has shown that as far as tracking individuals goes, the GPS module in ours phones is more than adequate to do that right now.

My issue with RFID and NFC is the potential for wireless identity theft.

And for certain, the last thing an iWallet user would ever want to do is jailbreak their phone.
post #33 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

What exactly is the attraction with these "check-in" apps? Is it the logical result of helicopter parenting? Helicopter everything? How horrible.

Think of it this way. If the NSA decided 5 years ago that they wanted to track and trace the movements of every person in America, and wanted to advance a mandatory government program for tracking you publicly, the outrage would have been gargantuan.

Instead, they encourage the use of the already existing "social networks" on which people, a huge number of them, actually volunteer this information multiple times per day.
post #34 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFreeman View Post

Are you out of your mind!


Note: Please understand the difference between NFC and RFID! They are two different things! Your video is also about RFID not NFC.

Clearly you've never learned to use yours.
post #35 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

What could RFID be used for? Social networking? If not, why? If so, why? Other suggestions?


The data rate for NFC is low. It creates a very small looped, secure connection.

The RFID, with preset authorizations, could to quickly and seamlessly establish a secure interchange over a more robust (faster) connection -- Cell, BT or WiFi.

So, NFC can be used to establish a higher-speed connection to be used for whatever communication purpose.
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post #36 of 65
HP demonstrated one "pretty cool" use of NFC on recent webOS announcement, "touch-to-share". It's Bump iPhone app on steroid. Tap one webOS device to one another (using same account ID) and supported contents that you were looking at (e.g., website, calendar appointment, photo) will transfer to another.

I suspect future Macs will have RFID with similar API (a bit of an extension to AirPlay).
post #37 of 65
"With a Twist" refers to a 30% charge for using the Apple RFID on every purchase using the iDevice.
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post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFreeman View Post

Are you out of your mind!

Note: Please understand the difference between NFC and RFID! They are two different things! Your video is also about RFID not NFC.

True they are very different, but I see no reason why NFC cannot cannot be used as for RFID. It is not passive so there is power cost but to get the security I would want, it would require more than just being able to read an ID, as in RFID. Also unless I am mistaken at least some RFID solutions can be used from 6-10 meters away whereas NFC is typically 20-30 cm. The restriction on distance is a good thing as far as I am concerned with security. Less spying ability (I would think). Also I think NFC could also be used to negotiate a more robust wi-fi network connection e.g., bluetooth that would then carry the load of negotiating other options for the user. Too me NFC enables some smarts that I don't see plain ole RFID providing and more importantly it can be dynamic.
post #39 of 65
OK, here is my imaginative scenario of the "twist" The phone will have a RFID, but for added security, the account holder of whatever credit/debit account that is being used will have their "face" stored on Apple's server farm. Whenever the phone is used to make a payment, the phone will ask to hold the phone up to see the user's face and if it matches with what is on the server, then it will approve the sale, maybe a voice authorization too. Apple already has facial recognition technology in their iPhoto app, why not incorporate it in their Mobile Me system for payments. This would prevent unauthorized use of the information. Likewise, unlike credit cards, the phone has it's unique ID too, so the RFID and phone ID must match for the authorization. This would prevent "spoofing" of the RFID on other devices, which is one problem with credit cards that have such a system.
post #40 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

"With a Twist" refers to a 30% charge for using the Apple RFID on every purchase using the iDevice.

I missed something I guess ("Blatant Trolling") Who is the troll? \
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