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So, why does being Pro-Life stop after the fetus is born?

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
Before I begin...yes, the original Tea Party is not the same Tea Party as today. Yes, it was quickly taken over by corporate conservative interests. When I use the word Tea Party now, I'm referring to the Tea Party of today. So, no bullshit arguments about "but but but they aren't the REAL Tea Party!" Sorry, that "real" Tea Party no longer exists. It's the Koch Brothers' corporate fake grassroots movement now. Deal with it.

Anyway, with the Tea Party running on how dreadful the economy is and how awful big government is and how terrible runaway spending is, the new House majority seems to be spending an awful lot of time and effort trying to save a pittance by eliminating federal subsidies for abortions. That'll make a dent in our deficit!

Here's the rest of the genius Republican plan:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/83387/house-...ation-usda-pbs

Quote:
About 8 million college students would see their Pell Grants fall by about 15 percent, with the maximum grants of $5,550 declining by by $845. “Our students count on that money, and we don’t have the resources to try to make that up,” one college financial aid officer told the New York Times in December, in response to talk such a cut might be coming.

Head Start funding would fall by more than $1 billion, forcing some combination of lower spending per child and fewer children in the program. The analysis I saw predicted more than 200,000 low-income children would lose slots in the program, although some of that may reflect the loss of funding from the expiring Recovery Act. Either way, it's a pretty big hit. Oh, and about 55,000 instructors and teachers could lose jobs as part of the cut.

In absolute terms, the cut to the USDA's food inspection program may seem a lot smaller--just $100 million. But that will almost certainly mean fewer inspectors, which is no small thing. As the non-partisan organization OMB Watch has noted, in recent years the number of inspectors has not kept up with the number of food producers--and "at no other regulatory agency does the size of the inspectorate need to be so closely aligned to the size of the industry it regulates."

Title I grants, which help schools with particularly needy populations, would fall by $700 million, affecting 2,400 schools and one million children. Another 10,000 instructors and aides would likely lose their jobs, as well. This is a direct hit on low-income children and the communities in which they live. (In the forthcoming print edition of TNR, I profile a Flint, Michigan school that has won awards for its work with low-income students. A big reason why is its Title I teachers.)

Americorps? The House Republicans would wipe out its funding entirely. And the Corporation for Public Broadcasting? Same thing.

So, deep cuts to education (Pre-K through college), "aid for pregnant women and women with young children, NOAA, NASA, energy efficiency programs, scientific research, counter-proliferation, FEMA, environmental protections, community health centers, and Centers for Disease Control."

So, pretty much all the programs that help better the quality of life for living, breathing American citizens will be cut or eliminated. Can't find a job? No unemployment for you! Get cancer? Fuck you! Sell your house! File bankruptcy! Want clean air to breathe? Sorry, it's more profitable for corporations to not give a shit about the environment. Should we give lower class children a fighting chance in school by giving access to preschool programs? No! Get a better job and a nanny you fucking dead-weight slackers!

So, you care SOOOOOOOOOOO much about making sure that fetuses are actually born. But as soon as they leave their wombs, FUCK IT! Throw them to the wolves and only the strongest will survive! AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

Terrible. How about you conservatives show as much compassion for life outside the womb as you claim to have for life inside? How can you say "don't you abort that rape baby, it deserves a chance at life," but when he's all grown up, gets cancer, and can't afford treatment, there goes his kids' college funds, the house, and the car while you sit silently watching and not giving two shits.

This is why conservatives make me so fucking angry. This is why conservatives make me so fucking sick.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post


This is why conservatives make me so fucking angry. This is why conservatives make me so fucking sick.

BR, you and I do have something in common. I would be willing to suggest that we both are 100% against Ayn Rand think and philosophy that says It is all about me and by the way F*ck you.

That is Ayn Rand objectivism as I see it. It is 100% flawed. It is abhorrent. It is evil and it is wrong.

As a Christian I am pro life all the way before and after birth. I believe in the balanced approach of Jesus which says a combination of Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime combined with if you have two coats and your brother is lacking a coat give him a coat.

This mindset is balanced and humane in my opinion. On the one hand the idea to educate and share methods for survival are viewed as essential and more fruitful than simply giving a man a fish. Understanding is the key for a more prolonged and fruitful life. I have a 4 year old and If I let him watch how I make pancakes for example he loves the learning and discovery of it. He understands it to some degree. If I just give him a pancake that is kind of empty in comparison to him seeing the details and participating in discovery and the understanding of the pancake and how it is made etc.

Also the idea of sharing / considering others is taught by the example of giving a spare coat to another if you see that they are without one.

I think we all need to be the ones helping to teach one another about the fish / pancake.

I think we all need to be the ones lending a spare coat.

That is just my thought about this.

The government gets so much wrong. Wars, policy, fiscal sanity etc. and now arguably priority in what we cut because of the crisis at hand regarding our fiscal disaster.

I say that no matter how unfit, out of touch, and botched our government is we as individuals have an opportunity to lift others up many fold.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #3 of 38
They want foetus to continue being born at specific rates for two reasons:

1) to control women's bodies and deprive them of choice in general

2) to ensure a production line of exploitable and taxable humans who will work for the system

It pays them. They are not stupid. If it paid more they would support pro-choice. They do not have morals - that's the real difference between you and them.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 38
I really can't say it better than Fellowship. I was going to try to do a full response and worked for a good 20 minutes reading, re-reading, typing and thinking. I just did not feel that my replies were adding much that were not already spoken.

Quote:
Terrible. How about you conservatives show as much compassion for life outside the womb as you claim to have for life inside? How can you say "don't you abort that rape baby, it deserves a chance at life," but when he's all grown up, gets cancer, and can't afford treatment, there goes his kids' college funds, the house, and the car while you sit silently watching and not giving two shits.

Compassion is what is missing in much of the US and the world at large. Compassion does not mean a hand-out though. The longer I read these forums and the news the more I see that my views are not actually really what those in power are trying to accomplish. BR, I have a world in mind that I am afraid will never exist. What my mind and ideals mean for good, those who look to profit alone use for what may most times boil down to evil. That does not make my ideals evil.

Quote:
They want foetus to continue being born at specific rates for two reasons:

1) to control women's bodies and deprive them of choice in general

2) to ensure a production line of exploitable and taxable humans who will work for the system

It pays them. They are not stupid. If it paid more they would support pro-choice. They do not have morals - that's the real difference between you and them.

I hope to never be this jaded.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 38
I agree that cutting education spending, PELL grants, PBS, NASA and other items are bad ideas. I think that government should be doing certain things. Education, ensuring a safe food supply and space exploration are some of them.

That said, the problem here is that your rhetoric is just as extreme as those who want to cut all of the things you mentioned. Not all of the GOP plan is bad. Additionally, we do need big spending cuts as we simply cannot afford the government we have.

This thread reminds me of a MoveOn link a friend of mine on Facebook recently shared: It was called "The GOP's War on Women." It was focused on abortion, but also other issues. That's the kind of rhetoric that is just uncalled for. Also, I thought we had all agreed that violent rhetoric was inappropriate?
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post #6 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I agree that cutting education spending, PELL grants, PBS, NASA and other items are bad ideas. I think that government should be doing certain things. Education, ensuring a safe food supply and space exploration are some of them.

None of that stuff needs to be done by the government. And most of it shouldn't be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

we do need big spending cuts as we simply cannot afford the government we have.

Bingo. The problem with socialism is that, eventually, you run out of other people's money.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #7 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I agree that cutting education spending, PELL grants, PBS, NASA and other items are bad ideas. I think that government should be doing certain things. Education, ensuring a safe food supply and space exploration are some of them.

That said, the problem here is that your rhetoric is just as extreme as those who want to cut all of the things you mentioned. Not all of the GOP plan is bad. Additionally, we do need big spending cuts as we simply cannot afford the government we have.

This thread reminds me of a MoveOn link a friend of mine on Facebook recently shared: It was called "The GOP's War on Women." It was focused on abortion, but also other issues. That's the kind of rhetoric that is just uncalled for. Also, I thought we had all agreed that violent rhetoric was inappropriate?

Please show me where I was violent. I showed anger and frustration. I showed passion. Violence? Where?

And if you really wanted more revenue, why not let the tax cuts on the rich (who are NOT struggling at all in this economy...many of whom in fact benefited up to and through the downturn) expire?

I'm also not focused on abortion. The GOP is. THEY brought up the issue trying to change the language of what an acceptable form of rape is (apparently, only "forcible rape"...so if the girl doesn't struggle hard enough, sorry, doesn't count).

And finally, I applaud any member of the GOP who has the balls not to march in lockstep with the rest of them. But any instances of that happening are few and far between. When batshit crazy cuts are proposed and the GOP marches together in unison...well...hard to argue for their collective sanity.


CUT DEFENSE. ELIMINATE THE MIDDLE MAN AND GO SINGLE PAYER. Raise taxes on the rich to Clinton levels, if not higher. Fuck, it's not like I'm asking for 70% or 90% like it was in your alleged Republican golden age of the 50s. 40% on anything over a million. No backdoor hiding income by paying only 15% on short term capital gains--tax it the same as income.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #8 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please show me where I was violent. I showed anger and frustration. I showed passion.

I think vitriol is the word you're looking for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And if you really wanted more revenue, why not let the tax cuts on the rich (who are NOT struggling at all in this economy...many of whom in fact benefited up to and through the downturn) expire?

Because this won't bring in more revenue. If anything you'd get less.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And finally, I applaud any member of the GOP who has the balls not to march in lockstep with the rest of them.

Can we put you on record as applauding Ron Paul?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Raise taxes on the rich to Clinton levels, if not higher. Fuck, it's not like I'm asking for 70% or 90% like it was in your alleged Republican golden age of the 50s. 40% on anything over a million. No backdoor hiding income by paying only 15% on short term capital gains--tax it the same as income.

It's interesting how casually you talk about forcibly taking other people's money.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 38
Thread Starter 
I get it. You used the word forcibly. Like in rape. Money rape. Taxes are money rape. Yeah, this is why you continue not to be worth talking to.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #10 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I get it.

I don't think you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You used the word forcibly.

Yes, I did. Taxes are money taken forcibly. You are proposing and advocating more of it...from other people of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Like in rape. Money rape. Taxes are money rape.

You are saying those things, I am not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yeah, this is why you continue not to be worth talking to.

And yet you are. This is the height of irony considering what you just posted (not to mention your opening post).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

None of that stuff needs to be done by the government. And most of it shouldn't be.

I disagree. Funding space exploration, scientific research, education (etc) promote the general welfare and help better the nation. The problem is our government goes way beyond defense, keeping law and order, maintaining infrastructure and programs like the ones above. Way beyond.

Quote:

Bingo. The problem with socialism is that, eventually, you run out of other people's money.

We agree there. But that doesn't mean there should be no public service. Teachers, firefighters, police, etc. Of course, it's gotten totally out of hand. We're doing a lot more than funding basic services to better the nation and protect it. We're employing half the damn population.
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post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please show me where I was violent. I showed anger and frustration. I showed passion. Violence? Where?

I wasn't clear. I meant you were being somewhat hypocritical. Your post title says it all. It's just inflammatory rhetoric. It's the same as a conservative starting a thread called "Pelosi: You can choose to kill your baby, but you can't choose to not carry health insurance." It needlessly conflates two or more issues for rhetorical effect.

Quote:


And if you really wanted more revenue, why not let the tax cuts on the rich (who are NOT struggling at all in this economy...many of whom in fact benefited up to and through the downturn) expire?

Because "the rich" are the ones that help stimulate the economy. Many of "the rich" are making $250,000 to $500,000 a year or more. This can include small businesses as well. Raising taxes on these people affects their willingness to invest in people (jobs) and equipment. It affects consumers willingness and ability to buy things.

I would be OK with a tax on the uber rich, say those making more than $5 million a year. That could provide needed revenue. At the same time it would avoid soaking consumers and small businesses.

Quote:

I'm also not focused on abortion. The GOP is. THEY brought up the issue trying to change the language of what an acceptable form of rape is (apparently, only "forcible rape"...so if the girl doesn't struggle hard enough, sorry, doesn't count).

I don't know all that much about it. I will say that some rape laws are pretty loosely worded. In some cases a woman can say she didn't want to have sex after the fact. It can be considered rape in some cases of the woman says no at any point, even if eventually agreeing. You can't possibly believe the Republican Party supports rape. Get real.

Quote:

And finally, I applaud any member of the GOP who has the balls not to march in lockstep with the rest of them. But any instances of that happening are few and far between. When batshit crazy cuts are proposed and the GOP marches together in unison...well...hard to argue for their collective sanity.

Many voted against the recent amendment proposing further and specific cuts. I believe the number was 92 House Republicans.

Quote:


CUT DEFENSE. ELIMINATE THE MIDDLE MAN AND GO SINGLE PAYER. Raise taxes on the rich to Clinton levels, if not higher. Fuck, it's not like I'm asking for 70% or 90% like it was in your alleged Republican golden age of the 50s. 40% on anything over a million. No backdoor hiding income by paying only 15% on short term capital gains--tax it the same as income.

Cutting defense needs to be done...I agree. With that, we need to change the way we have troops deployed. Why do we have 50,000 troops in Germany? Why do we have 28,000 in South Korea? I think we should cut the military budget by at least $200 billion. We should change our basing so that we have perhaps 12 major military bases around the world. End our presence in nearly every nation on Earth.

Single Payer healthcare is a horrendous and unconstitutional idea. It will destroy the healthcare system in this country. And it won't happen.

Raising taxes right now is a terrible idea. It will slam the already anemic recovery. If you want to raise taxes, raise them when the economy is good. You can't look back at Clinton and conclude that his tax policies actually helped the economy. Keep in mind that until late 1995 and 1996, the economy was not booming. It was only the tech boom that allowed the economy to expand with higher tax rates.

40%? Wow. That's an incredible rate. This is a terrible idea that won't work.

BR, you refuse to acknowledge the problem. The problem is not that "the rich" get to keep too much of their money. The problem is spending. The Federal budget is now twice as large as it was when Bush took office. How the hell did that happen? Deficits are four times higher than Bush's highest, or twice as large if you consider the TARP spending. How did that happen? I'll tell you: SPENDING. If anything, taxes should be cut dramatically and the entire system should be reformed. Everyone pays 5% off the top and then a progressive rate based on income. Max rate is 20%. No deductions. Or better yet...eliminate all income taxes. Go to VAT of 15 or 20%. Watch the economy and revenue explode.
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post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's just inflammatory rhetoric. It's the same as a conservative starting a thread called "Pelosi: You can choose to kill your baby, but you can't choose to not carry health insurance." .........

It needlessly conflates two or more issues for rhetorical effect. .

Yeah...it's not like a winger would ever conflate - say - something like....oh, I don't know....Arab people wanting freedom and WW3 or anything....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #14 of 38
Thread Starter 
SDW, I acknowledge that spending is a problem. I've already said, it's time we cut defense spending like crazy. We spend more than the next 10 countries combined. But you won't acknowledge that after 30 years of trying it out, trickle down economics DON'T DO SHIT. The rich don't stimulate the economy with the extra money they save from lower taxes. They hoard it. Who spends the money and puts it right back into the economy? The lower and middle classes.

I'm also not saying the Republican party supports rape. You missed that point completely as well. By using the word "forcible" in the definition of what kind of rape will still maintain federal abortion subsidies, it makes a huge legal loophole. If the woman doesn't struggle enough, whatever enough is, the woman won't get any federal aid in the abortion. It's abortion that Republicans hate. But they are twisting the rape laws to jam through their abortion agenda.

Healthcare in this country as it currently stands needs to be destroyed. Republicans still don't have an answer to this question: Should the children of a middle class man suffer because he happened to get cancer? Should he really have to face the choice between getting treatment or losing his house and his family's savings? Is that what our country is really about?

There are some sectors in which private industry doesn't belong--police, fire, AND HEALTHCARE.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #15 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I disagree. Funding space exploration, scientific research, education (etc) promote the general welfare and help better the nation.

We disagree then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The problem is our government goes way beyond defense, keeping law and order, maintaining infrastructure and programs like the ones above. Way beyond.

Yes, that's one of the problems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

But that doesn't mean there should be no public service. Teachers, firefighters, police, etc.

We disagree again.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #16 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

We disagree again.

No teachers? Firefighters? For real dude?

post #17 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

No teachers? Firefighters? For real dude?

For real dude...I didn't exactly say that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

For real dude...I didn't exactly say that.

what did you exactly say then???????????
post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

what did you exactly say then???????????

I said that those things need not necessarily (or even most effectively) be provided by the state.

I'm all in favor of both educational products and services as well as fire protection products and services. In fact I'd love to see the abundance of choices that would likely be provided in private markets. Certainly these are products and services that can be provided privately. In fact we're likely to have a wider variety of options, prices, quality levels if we had markets in these various things.

I realize this is neither a popular or common viewpoint. Some might even suggest it is medieval thinking. Some might suggest that by arguing for private provision of these kinds of services I'm some kind of uncaring, selfish, heartless, greedy dolt. Nevertheless, I still contend calmly, unemotionally and rationally that many if not most (possibly all) of the things done by the state can be done privately and likely more effectively for everyone.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #20 of 38
Thread Starter 
When one's ideas can simply be boiled down to "private = GOOD" and "public = BAD," those ideas really aren't very sophisticated. It's not worth it, Marc.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

When one's ideas can simply be boiled down to "private = GOOD" and "public = BAD," those ideas really aren't very sophisticated. It's not worth it, Marc.

Tell me, is this straw man a result of a comprehension issue or is it a deliberate attempt to avoid actually engaging in a discussion?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #22 of 38
We are talking about the way that 'pro life' ends at birth, and conservative hypocrisy.

The best way of illuminating this hypocrisy is to ask why those who whine about the state stealing their money, and whine about government intrusion in their sacred Liberty, are suddenly fine with the state actually taking the lives of its citizens in executions.

Taxes are bad! Are we not FREE? Piss on you, government.

But yes, government. It's fine for you to ACTUALLY KILL your citizens.

All of a sudden the state's comprised of the citizens who run it and pay for it. They get government when it's taking the lives of its citizens, all right, these 'pro life' people.
post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The best way of illuminating this hypocrisy is to ask why those who whine about the state stealing their money, and whine about government intrusion in their sacred Liberty, are suddenly fine with the state actually taking the lives of its citizens in executions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

They get government when it's taking the lives of its citizens, all right, these 'pro life' people.

The best way of illuminating this hypocrisy is to show us who you are talking about...specifically.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #24 of 38
My pro-choice stance has little to do with being pro-abortion per se. I am pro-pragmatic. I wish there was no need for abortions. I wish people would exercise better judgment and use more self-control rather than birth control. I wish women never got raped or never experienced complications during pregnancy. I also realize that I cannot wish things into being real. Getting rids of abortion will not get rid of the need/desire for them. If abortion is illegal, that would mean doctors will not be trained on it and simply create and illegal/dangerous back alley black-market. Until/unless we come up with an idea/solution for children being born to unprepared, unwilling, and incapable parents, then the pro-life stance is half-baked. The number one cause of child abuse is frustration; parents who are unprepared, unwilling, and incapable will either abuse their children or do a poor job in raising them and, thus, they become society's problem in the future. Life isn't just about breathing. They're many people who are breathing, but are hardly alive (and I'm not talking in the physical sense). Life is about living not breathing. How much life do children born to unprepared, unwilling, and incapable parents experience? I mean, I would love to put two responsible parents or people together and have them raise all the children in the world, but we do not live in that world and unless/until you create that world, you are simply deny people their rights. Unborn children has as much right to live a good life, to be respected, and treated accordingly, as mush as they have the right to breath, but unless/until we can guarantee that then we are just controlling women's bodies.
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." Henry David Thoreau
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"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." Henry David Thoreau
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post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I said that those things need not necessarily (or even most effectively) be provided by the state.

I'm all in favor of both educational products and services as well as fire protection products and services. In fact I'd love to see the abundance of choices that would likely be provided in private markets. Certainly these are products and services that can be provided privately. In fact we're likely to have a wider variety of options, prices, quality levels if we had markets in these various things.

I realize this is neither a popular or common viewpoint. Some might even suggest it is medieval thinking. Some might suggest that by arguing for private provision of these kinds of services I'm some kind of uncaring, selfish, heartless, greedy dolt. Nevertheless, I still contend calmly, unemotionally and rationally that many if not most (possibly all) of the things done by the state can be done privately and likely more effectively for everyone.

I don't think it's uncaring or selfish, I just think some services should be public. You're going to have a private police force? How does that get paid for? How do those without means get an education?
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post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't think it's uncaring or selfish, I just think some services should be public.

I understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You're going to have a private police force? How does that get paid for? How do those without means get an education?

I think these problems are solvable.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #27 of 38
Thread Starter 
Think police coverage is bad in shitty neighborhoods now? Just wait.

What America lacks the most right now and desperately needs is a real sense of community and brotherhood. Individualism is great...to an extent. We've just crossed way to far into selfish-asshole-ville.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Think police coverage is bad in shitty neighborhoods now? Just wait.

What America lacks the most right now and desperately needs is a real sense of community and brotherhood. Individualism is great...to an extent. We've just crossed way to far into selfish-asshole-ville.

BR VERY interesting point.

My wife and I are very seriously considering moving to a small town with a population of about 5,500 people. Why? First of all to shorten commutes to work. Secondly we have a very particular small town in mind with a small downtown square with small businesses which feels very home like. Not corporate faceless giants but mom and pop establishments which feel more humble and less pretentious than the mega-development style McMansions and Mc Shopping that most of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metro area offers. When you get out to this small town you have farm land as far as the eye can see. Not endless subdivisions, office parks and subdivisions. The small town has a history and has railroad tracks, grain elevators, etc. with recent improvements to the city in the way of parks and complexes where kids can play baseball etc. It is the kind of place where people know each other and you would expect fireflies on a summer night. Where people could sit outside on a nice day after work and drink lemonade or iced tea. My wife and I spoke to a family out in their yard and visited with them and asked them how lthe liked living in this town and they informed us that they loved it here. They used to live in Houston and then another huge mid-city of the Dallas/ Fort Worth metroplex. Now they live here and have kids in school. They gave us valuable information and you could just tell how relaxed and comfortable these people were with their warm company and smile.

I bring this up to relate it to what you said about America needing a sense of community. I could not agree with you more. I find the exact thing to be absolutely true.

Where I live I enjoy my neighbors etc. But I have to say the whole area around me reeks of what I call yuppies. People that feel they have to keep up a certain image and sense of importance. I have reached a point in my life where by I am completely happy with humble surroundings in a peaceful setting. Not congested, full of traffic, suburbia with everyone trying to outdo their neighbor. I like small town America. I have a lot ahead of me to sell our home and buy our next home but it is something which I believe my wife and I have both reached the same conclusion that it is what we desire very much.

I have to say. Being in my "box" if you will of yuppified suburbia and even urban yuppies has made me realize how much I don't really appreciate this way of life. After spending several hours in the small town that we like and then heading back to where we live we realize just how off the wall crazy it is where we live. Huge cues of cars everywhere in all left turn lanes at redlights. Endless retail every where. Toll roads etc. Humanity or community just seems less real and or vivid. It seems more cold and manufactured. Yet out in the small town where you can see the stars at night and breathe clean air and see as far as the eye can see of undeveloped land around the town square it lends the spirit a sense of liberation, joy and almost euphoria. I thought I would share.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #29 of 38
Thread Starter 
I agree that small towns certainly have their appeal. Unfortunately I'd be an outcast in most of small-town America. Atheists are rather despised across the country, but much more so in rural areas.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I agree that small towns certainly have their appeal. Unfortunately I'd be an outcast in most of small-town America. Atheists are rather despised across the country, but much more so in rural areas.

Move to Europe
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Before I begin...yes, the original Tea Party is not the same Tea Party as today. Yes, it was quickly taken over by corporate conservative interests. When I use the word Tea Party now, I'm referring to the Tea Party of today. So, no bullshit arguments about "but but but they aren't the REAL Tea Party!" Sorry, that "real" Tea Party no longer exists. It's the Koch Brothers' corporate fake grassroots movement now. Deal with it.

The "real" Tea Party no longer exists? I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Quote:
Anyway, with the Tea Party running on how dreadful the economy is and how awful big government is and how terrible runaway spending is, the new House majority seems to be spending an awful lot of time and effort trying to save a pittance by eliminating federal subsidies for abortions. That'll make a dent in our deficit!

Seems to me a key agreement that got Obamacare passed involved an executive order prohibiting federal funds for abortions. So this is just an efort to make an honest man out of our president. As for making a dent in our deficit, it will take a million of these kinds of cuts.

Quote:
Here's the rest of the genius Republican plan:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/83387/house-...ation-usda-pbs

So, deep cuts to education (Pre-K through college), "aid for pregnant women and women with young children, NOAA, NASA, energy efficiency programs, scientific research, counter-proliferation, FEMA, environmental protections, community health centers, and Centers for Disease Control."

So, pretty much all the programs that help better the quality of life for living, breathing American citizens will be cut or eliminated. Can't find a job? No unemployment for you! Get cancer? Fuck you! Sell your house! File bankruptcy! Want clean air to breathe? Sorry, it's more profitable for corporations to not give a shit about the environment. Should we give lower class children a fighting chance in school by giving access to preschool programs? No! Get a better job and a nanny you fucking dead-weight slackers!

So, you care SOOOOOOOOOOO much about making sure that fetuses are actually born. But as soon as they leave their wombs, FUCK IT! Throw them to the wolves and only the strongest will survive! AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

Terrible. How about you conservatives show as much compassion for life outside the womb as you claim to have for life inside? How can you say "don't you abort that rape baby, it deserves a chance at life," but when he's all grown up, gets cancer, and can't afford treatment, there goes his kids' college funds, the house, and the car while you sit silently watching and not giving two shits.

This is why conservatives make me so fucking angry. This is why conservatives make me so fucking sick.

Why should these programs be run at the federal level? Have ever greater increases in federal funding created better outcomes? Have they made college more affordable?
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post #32 of 38
Thread Starter 
College was more affordable before funding cuts. Tuition has been jacked up to unprecedented levels the last few years due to a combination of cuts resulting from the financial crisis and "conservatives" in office.

Speaking of the financial crisis, though...financial institutions take part in gratuitously illegal activity committing outright fraud by repackaging toxic loans and repackaging them as AAA rated securities. Pensions invest in these, taking that AAA rating as the truth. The shit finally hits the fan and all those funds blow up taking the rest of the economy with it. Pensions suddenly have shortfalls. "Conservatives" get elected into office. Now they claim that unions and spending for the public good caused all the problems. BULLSHIT. A conservative-driven deregulated Wall Street fucked this up. And NO ONE WENT TO JAIL. This is literally the crime of the century.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

College was more affordable before funding cuts. Tuition has been jacked up to unprecedented levels the last few years due to a combination of cuts resulting from the financial crisis and "conservatives" in office.

That isn't quite true. Pricing is a function of supply and demand. Prices, unmolested by forcible action, reflect the true costs of goods and services. Government actions merely distort these. Government actions over the past 40-50 (and probably more in the last 20-30) years has actually operated to increase the cost of education (at all levels)*.

You need to look beyond the surface on these things.

I say this with all due respect: You would benefit greatly by taking the time to understand some basic economic principles and concepts. It will help you to analyze these things better and dig deeper to find the true root causes rather than stopping at the proximate causes. Our world is being made worse daily by people who are actually implementing policies and laws that merely treat symptoms because they don't understand the disease. A book I'd recommend for the average person who's not trying to be an economics professor is "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. It's very easily digestible and written for non-academic audiences.

*This statement is also true about things like healthcare, housing and labor.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #34 of 38
Thread Starter 
More people go to college now than in the past. You would benefit if you actually even read your own fucking arguments. Higher demand for college would lead to the higher prices. Government intervention has, up until this point, kept prices from being even higher.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

More people go to college now than in the past. You would benefit if you actually even read your own fucking arguments. Higher demand for college would lead to the higher prices. Government intervention has, up until this point, kept prices from being even higher.

Again...I (politely) offered some (admittedly unsolicited) advice. You might consider it heeding it.

Or not.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #36 of 38
Thread Starter 
Nothing is polite about you. At the end of the day, no matter how you want to phrase it, you just don't give a fuck about people who can't make it on their own, regardless of the circumstances. In fact, you want all the power to lie with those who have the proven track record of fucking over the most people.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

At the end of the day, no matter how you want to phrase it, you just don't give a fuck about people who can't make it on their own, regardless of the circumstances. In fact, you want all the power to lie with those who have the proven track record of fucking over the most people.

You appear to be describing the caricature of me that you've created in your own mind.

In any case, I hope you give that book a try someday.

P.S. I even found a PDF version online so you don't even have to order it, go to a library or pay money for it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Higher demand for college would lead to the higher prices.

Absent an increase in supply, yes this would be true. There's a higher demand for laptop computers today than there ever was before but prices for laptops are lower.
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