Beyond Revolution: Middle East Freedom, or The End?

Omg

I'm trying to leave this place permanently and things were going well but I can't let this go. I'm going to TRY to address these points from a different angle as they are all pretty much ...well...err...silly.

So - if you will - let's look at these points not from 'facts' as they do not bare relation to any but from the point of view of underlying assumptions....

If anything will kick of WW3 I can guarantee it will be - as it always is with war - prejudice and unexamined assumptions. Both of which negate dialogue and empathy.


Imagine the previous events of the Berlin Wall, fall of Communism, Velvet Revolution. Pretty much the same phenomena but of course everyone celebrated freedom, everyone stood with the liberated people in the hour of frredom....parties all round and no talk of WW3..... now only Egyptians are partying - why might this be?

One word:

MUZZLIMS


If you really knew these you would not be asking the above question. I don't recall either of these faiths predicting WW3 - what they do predict has quite a long way to run and is not anywhere near the end-game as of yet.


Again...the assumption here is:

Israel = vulnerable victim that needs protecting
Arabs = evil Satanic bastards who want to - say it with me - WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP.

How about:

If Arabs gain freedom will Israel nuke them?

No, don't answer - I don't mean it to be answered - it is an example of the question you would never ask.

So why ask the one you did?


Seeing as no Arab countries have the bomb it will be Israel or the US doing the nuking - so I guess the answer is yes: it could well happen. They have done it before.

Again though: the question is not framed as "will the US or Israel nuke Arab civilians?"

Why?


Will SDW ever post on a subject he knows something about and not make embarrassing and laughable statements implanted by right-wing talkshows and Fox News?

Such a thing is not possible - I have explained it to you before and there's these things called books now which contain things called 'facts'..... I know you don't like them and I respect that but it's reached the point where anyone trying to point them out to you proves THEMSELVES to be a moron so I will say no more.


Are they? I think they are exciting and liberating. Not sure why you'd find people gaining freedom concerning...oh...wait.....


They mean people have had enough of the sort of assumptions that underpin this thread - the sort that have been the scourge of the Arab world for centuries.

They mean people are tired waiting for outside help and are taking events into their own hands.

They mean the US's day is over and everyone senses it...the barbarians are INSIDE the gate. Rome is falling.

They mean that the Islamic world is waking up and shaking off the shackles.

They mean that the West is dying and the East is rising.

Lets hope you like prohibitive fuel prices Scotty. Seems like we are going to breaking new oil price records before long.

As predicted, trumptman has done a runner now the revolutions come...I said they were coming for him

Why would you do that? I pretty much disagree with most of your opinions and yet without you this place would only be half as interesting and enjoyable.

probably 95% less interesting and enjoyable. Hes not going to leave, hes just stuck in stygian gloom. Come on sego, get back to reality.

Right...that's not an underlying assumption and - thank God - it is never ever ever ever ever ever shared by our glorious and truthful leaders when - unfortunately, nobly and with deepest regret - they lead us into hell and carnage.

Never ever.

Ever.


Always do man, not my fault if you can't comprehend it....I try to help you get up to speed but there is a limit to my powers...


Think I did - I can reiterate if you find it difficult to understand: reductionist and uninformed prejudice like yours - when shared by leaders who have power but no intelligence and are just as biased - will, when faced with possibilities of conflict, inevitably lead to war.

Don't know how much clearer I can be.


I'm being polite.

There are other words for people who claim expert knowledge of things they know nothing about. I choose not to use them.


I don't fail to acknowledge it - I know it is a certainty if people with your view - ie your 'leaders' and role models who you support and in the abstract the US and Israel - have their way.

Or put another way: the US have fucked up the region for decades and will do so again - of course things CAN GET WORSE.

I am merely questioning:

1) why you're blaming BEFORE THE FACT the Arab people themselves for the FUCK UP THAT HAS NOT YET HAPPENED BUT IF IT DOES WILL BE DOWN TO PEOPLE WITH ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS.


2) Why you cannot support the Arab people in their fight for freedom but have to dis it.


NO. There is 100% certainty that if THE ARAB PEOPLE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE you will hate their choice.

But don't worry...Uncle Sam may yet save them and you'll be able to relax.


Because the US does not - and never has - dispensed freedom.

And that is the only framework in which you can conceive of 'freedom'.

You are less free than they are even now. And yet you don't know it...which makes you even LESS free.


I see your statement and raise you....... exact quote please. Clue - don't bother checking anywhere but Revelation - it will narrow it down but you'll still be shit out of luck.


Which Arab country do you think has the bomb? Or is near? If I recall correctly then the nearest one - let's not tell you which that might be, makes it more fun - is as much as 15 years off.

I guess Israel will wait around to be bombed though.

Back in the real world: Israel could NEVER be in jeopardy from ANYONE. Full Stop. Even if they got sloppy the US takes their security more seriously than they do yours.


You still haven't explained why YOU frame things the way you do. And that;s what we're discussing.


Get new sources. Just because they are 'yours' does not make them valid.


I am aware of that - I am questioning whether you are.

What are the tents of Islam for example? Who is perverting them and how? I question whether you know this....


Or you may be...

Thanks btw - you just proved my above comment that you know nothing of Islam and need new sources.


Deaf much? I constantly point out Muslims who have - imo - strayed. Though only God is the judge of that. Had an ongoing debate with Nightcrawler about it up until a week ago.

I'm more interested in why you never note this...actually, scrub that...I know why.


Agreed....but hopefully the US can but out and we'll be ok.


I think it does....I think it did from the first few words.


Ok..


You will...


Those with a vested interest in doing so....


You cannot see the West is dying for several reasons....

1) You only see with Western eyes - and they are blinded as part of the process

2) You cannot accept it intellectually - this is understandable

3) It has not really hit home yet....but it will in the next few years and starting I would say towards the end of this one.

All things must pass...in a sense we are privileged to be alive to witness such a period....it only happens rarely and at gaps of perhaps hundreds if not thousands of years.

You found me out Marc, I'm secretly the leader of some a Middle Eastern county currently under going turmoil. I'm posting from my bunker even as we speak.


If you leave now, you'll never get your special 10,000 post prize.

It's not the lifetime subscription to Fox News is it?

I've been thinking about this post - I recommend it actually, thinking, went out of fashion with the Greeks but it might be coming back - and there are some other nonsensical elements that were not immediately obvious as they were submerged beneath the other nonsensical elements.

1) Why would a believer NEED to manipulate events in order to 'make them true' ? Apart from the fact that this is haram in Islam anyway?

Put it another way:

I know evolution is true because I read Darwin.

I know what I'll do....I'll FAKE a copy of Darwin!!!!!!!

That'll make it true!!!! You may argue that neither evolution or Islam is PROVED to be true but that is not the point. The point is that someone who BELIEVES has no need to MANIPULATE....that is the action of an unbeliever.

Which is why Christians accuse evolutionists of faking evidence whereas in fact they don't need to. The accusers are merely describing their OWN state of mind as SDW is in this post and none of it has any relation to reality.

Well..it has a bit...because if you took the polar extreme of their statements you'd be pretty near the "Gospel Truth".

2) How can the events be manipulated? Although SDW does not actually know what the prophecies are because he gets his fix from only 'approved sources' who are essentially conditioning him rather than informing, the fact is that the coming of the Mahdi is preceded by numerous natural events which have not (yet) happened.

As these events are sequential then the Mahdi cannot come until they DO occur. This is the prophecy.

So if someone - Ahmedinejad say (as he is the person SDW is most scared of let's use him - no other reason) were to 'hasten the Mahdi' then -as the natural events have not occurred then that makes him not believe the prophecy surely? But according to SDW and his puppeteers he is doing it to make the prophecy true!!!

More loonthink: Prez A wants to make the prophecy true! OMG!!!!! Look he is making the prophecy false - that proves it!!!! BASTARD!!!!! - we need to nuke and we need to nuke NOW!!!!!!!! God bless Amerika!!


3) If these events DO come true then surely that makes the prophecy true which in turn should give one (normally) pause for thought.

Put another way: if Islam or Christianity prophesies something that comes true - I don't know, let's say RAPTURE or DOOMSDAY (bear with me - I said [B IF[/B] - then surely one should accept that religion and not wank on how bad it is?????

One final example:

Non-thinking Loon: Those bastards in religion X - look at them, total lying scum prophesying Mr Y's arrival to meet with heads of State. What liars!!!!!!!

Newscaster: News just breaking - Mr Y has arrived and is meeting with all heads of State.

Non-thinking Loon: I told you they were Bastards!
Don't worry. I haven't gone all fundie. You can apply this sort of non-thinking idiocy to any field or secular endeavour...as indeed they do.

I think countries in question have the opportunity to experience the type of freedom that the citizens of those countries want/desire.

More likely, though, is that the individuals/factions that pick up the reigns of government will be little different from what was there before, and in just a few years (if not months) things will be more or less exactly the way they were a year ago. The folks that will "take power" are going to do it for personal/political gain... not because they desire freedom for the citizenry.
(And yes, someone already alluded to it... but those peoples' idea of freedom may be very different from the corrupted Representative Republic we have in the U.S. ... for some of them, Sharia Law may be what they TRULY WANT!... I don't have a problem with that within their own borders... they just have no business trying to impose it in other countries! And WE have no business trying to impose OUR system on them!)

Much like how the U.S. government is no different regardless of whether the Reps or Dems are running things... they may speak differently, but their actions are no different, one from the other.

Ahh... hope springs eternal...

Alexander Pope, if I'm not mistaken.

OK...I accept your points...though I do not agree with you. I accept out of respect.

One example of why I do not agree with you and why you are wrong both about my lack of debate, support, my attitude to you and about an idea you have about Islam:

You years ago made the claim that Ahmedinejad said the 'wiped off the map' meme.

You do not speak Farsi.

I provided you with the correct translation literally more than 20 times. And backed it up with references from native speakers and experts in the field.

Yet you still refused to accept it. And kept repeating the 'translation' from others who have an agenda. It happens many times all down the line.

So what are we dealing with?

Re what I know about and don't: I happen to know about Christianity and Islam - I don't know much about anything else really. It's boring. But when I see errors and misconceptions I try to correct them.

I know absolutely NOTHING about evolution, US politics, economics et etc and these topics come up more often than Islam does here. I read the threads and am pretty Sure - pretty very sure - that the Conservatives are wrong in these threads too.

Pretty sure they do the same fact-ignoring and truth twisting.

But I don't call them on it there because I DON'T KNOW. I am can only guess. I only comment on the topics I know when it is necessary to say "You are wrong". I never say it unless I am sure and these two topics are pretty much the only areas where I know anything at all....

There are others who DO know about economics, US politics and evolution and guess what? When they say "You are wrong" the exact same scenario plays out!!

So I would say to you: if you are not interested in Islam - leave it alone. If you are interested - whether to oppose or whatever - then learn something about it. You can do this here, it is one of the benefits of the place.

I appreciate you initially did start off in a respectful and questioning tone and I was belligerent - I apologize for that. It's not personal (btw, if I decide to ad hom you there won't be any doubt about it - I haven't done it yet and I hope not to), not personal at all - I just get frustrated with the misconceptions on here sometimes.

And also your opinions seem somehow similar to many in the MSM which are uninformed and you seem to be repeating them - that'd kind of annoying. You're not a NaplesX or a Scott - you can do better than that. You don't need to join the Muslim Brotherhood- you can still realise the media is lying and retain all your ideals.

So apologies again, I accept I was responding in an inappropriate manner but I was not annoyed with you but at the media/debate level - articularly in this case that when the Arab world moves to freedom it seems to be pulled down in public opinion

That's fair enough, won't affect the reality but the people deserve more respect than that - even if you don't agree with them. Sooner or later we'll all have to get on.

Tired as I am of banging my head against a brick wall and mindful of the Arabic proverb "no answer is in itself an answer" I will merely reiterate that I object to the premise of this thread and would point out that it signifies something more sinister, if only in the mind of the OP but probably on a far wider scale.

For example: if a revolution occurred in a non-Muslim country like, say, North Korea - there would be no 'is this the end?' question. There would be congratulations and celebrating freedom - as there should be.

"Is this the end?" questions are asked of Muslims because they are seen - ie portrayed and non-thinkers just blindly accept it - as BY DEFINITION barbaric.

Posts like this buy into this thinking, are a product of it and - consciously or unconsciously - seek to reinforce it.

I would also draw attention to another - frightening and chilling fact - that while fundie knickers get all twisted about Islam being 'of the devil' (as opposed to the Muslim view of Christianity that it is 'of God') and assorted racists and bigots swing from the trees onto the bandwagon.....a very real danger continues apace to claim lives and threaten the world.

Some figures place the number of US Christians (not WORLD - just US) who believe in an end-time massacre at Armageddon as high as 55%. Of the US public.

In other words they hold the position falsely ascribed here to Ahmedinejad. And they do not believe - unlike in Islam - that it would be a sin to 'make it happen'.

A quote at random:


Link

I guess I would be expected to object to the destruction of the Dome of the Rock (not a mosque btw) on religious grounds but one could also object on artistic grounds.

What other group could seek to destroy a 7th century architectural masterpiece. Only the Taleban I guess as they did with the Buddhas.

But there are far. far less Taleban than these type of Xian.

Destroying the Dome of the Rock would certainly hasten things. But we don't talk about it because it's NOT MUSLIMS ATTEMPTING IT.

The ultimate irony is that the building was built in the 7th century as a celebration of Jesus. It is not a mosque but a monument to Christ and all the calligraphic inscriptions inside repeatedly proclaim this.

But of course the barbarians would never know this.

I suppose it's up to the individual and their relative positions to decide who is more dangerous.

Exploring Bible Prophecy is a hobby of mine, and I've still managed to stay out of this thread thus far.

However, it's probably time to step in to note that Sego has no idea what he's talking about.

Born Again Christians are not expecting any kind of catastrophe to befall the Dome of the Rock. We are expecting the Antichrist to come to power, sign a peace treaty with Israel and her neighbours, and that treaty will include the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple side by side with the Dome of the Rock.

This is why Revelation 11:1 speaks of a rebuilt Jewish Temple on Mount Moriah that does not include the outer court, which is said to be in use by gentiles.

For someone who claims to have been raised with fundamentalists, that's a pretty epic bible fail.

And the Dome of the Rock might have been built as a celebration of the Muslim idea of who Jesus was, but that's really neither here nor there. The Muslim idea of who Jesus is also a pretty epic bible fail.

Translation: I have a different opinion to you.


Not true...many are.....there are differing opinions and some do believe as I say...you are not being honest Frank.

Do you deny this?


Not true in all cases....including the one I quoted. Most Xians hate Islam anyway so why NOT destroy it?

[/quote]
This is why Revelation 11:1 speaks of a rebuilt Jewish Temple on Mount Moriah that does not include the outer court, which is said to be in use by gentiles.[/quote]

They do not even know it was there. No-one does. Except 'Biblical Archaeologists' and Biblical archaeology is an oxymoron....it owes nothing to science and even less to do with respecting the past.


I refer you to my comments above re your seeming dishonesty Frank...do you really believe that all Fundie Xians hold your view? If so you are very sheltered....but I think you know there are differing views and the one I quote is one of them....why are you being dishonest?


But that's a good thing.....all it really means is it 'fails to believe God had a son who was also a man'...

Biblical fail = logical and rational pass. I'm happy with that.

Well I'm an actual Born Again Christian and you're not. So I would be the one to know.


There are all kinds of opinions about the Bible. You are the one who claimed "Fundie" Christians were looking forward to the destruction of the Dome. Funny how you forgot to mention the "differing opinions" part then.


Because Islam will be destroyed in a preceding war that has nothing to do with Christians or Armaggedon. Again, if you don't understand Bible Prophecy, go buy a few books.


I'm trying not to respond to ridiculous posts this year.


You are simply quoting fringe elements who go unrecognized even in the Christian community and mis-representing them as mainstream fundamentalist thought. Who is the dishonest one here?



How is it logical or rational is it to assume that you can fully grasp the will and actions of a God?
You pretend your human intellect can fathom the purposes of the universe, and you fool only yourself.

Ok...so all born again Christians have your opinion right? No disagreement?

The statement you made is true universally amongst all born again Christians...is this your claim?

Is it that you have never heard a different view or that you don;t believe those who hold one are Christians?

I still think you are being dishonest...most people aren't 'born again Christians' but they've been hassled by them enough to know what they believe...


Yep....because as I often say: those holding a more moderate view are not - imho - what I would call fundies.

Your opinion about the Dome side by side with the Temple is not a fundie view imo so how could I quote it in a discussion of fundie views?

It's like saying I don't mention bin Laden when I speak about Islamic Theology....or I don't mention Muhammad when in support of bin Laden when talking of Extremism.

It doesn't make sense....

{quote]
Because Islam will be destroyed in a preceding war that has nothing to do with Christians or Armaggedon. Again, if you don't understand Bible Prophecy, go buy a few books.[/quote]

Strange, because I do read books...some of them are even history books and the last one I read informed me that Islam arose in the 7th century AD whereas John's Revelation was written around the 1st century and did not mention Islam.

So where does this idea come from? I would say from bigotted minds...and you know what? I can say that with no fear of offending God or anything because IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!


Best not to in this context.... slippery sands....


Wait....I get something here...you actually use 'fundamentalist' as something normal don't you?

I don't mean to be funny or rude here - I just got the root of our disagreement. I am using it as a Christian equivalent of - say - Islamic Extremist (I use fundie there too).

If you think it is a non-perjorative then I apologize for offending you. I will avoid it....let's use 'literalist' instead.

I know some people use fundamentalist to mean someone who is 'pure' in religion and I appreciate the spirit of that - I am talking about extremists.


You make too many assumptions there my friend.

There is only one way one can even approach God - and that is if He reveals himself. He may do this in many ways and different people connect in their own way I suppose. Still, a human can never assume that one grasps God's will or intentions. It is the height of irrationality to think so.

Perhaps one can follow a scripture but if it contradicts itself or logic then we know it is not of God in that place. So we do know that at least....God is not an idiot.

So I do not do what you claim...yet you wnat to paint me as doing so.... which is very odd because when I call someone out on this it is BECAUSE (generally) they have done this.

Bin Laden and every suicide bomber believe they 'grasp the will of God' and so do those Dome-destroyers you deny exist.

I am merely pointing to their existence - and you, for some strange reason, are taking it personally.

Words have meanings Sego. What you think a word means only counts if you are creating your own language.

The Antichrist peace treaty along with a rebuilt Temple is a staple of almost all understandings of premillenialist Bible prophecy. Fundamentalist Christians are almost universally premillenialist.

As you mention, Revelation is a first century book and the Dome is a 7th century building. The idea that the Dome needed to be destroyed or moved to accommodate the Temple has been outdated for a long time. Again, Rev. 11:1 explicitly says that Gentiles would occupy the outer court.

Any decent Bible has a diagram of the Temple Sego. Just look it up.

In your previous post you had an unclear line:


It makes it sound like you are saying that the Bible predicts that Islam will be destroyed in a previous war. Is that what you are claiming or is it simply you responding to his claim about what might happen to Islam due to extremist opinions and actions against Muslims? Or is it something else entirely?

I want to point out to Sego that this view of the Temple and the Dome of the Rock occupying the same location is not some fringe view. I have heard it many times before and it has even made it into Christian Fictional literature such as the Left Behind series. It is not a universally accepted view, but there are few things that are.

Yes, only a very few things about the End-Times are universally accepted. That's what makes discussions fun (and sometimes heated.)

With regard to the line you mentioned, perhaps I did phrase it badly. Islamic nations are defeated in the most supernatural way. I personally don't see how Islam would survive such a clear defeat with the words of the Bible ringing in the ears of every person on Earth.

The war of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 39-39) happens after Israel was miraculously reborn from Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37. (BTW, I don't know how you get a clearer vision of the Holocaust than saying the Jews would rise again as a nation after being reduced to dry bones.)

Most commentators believe that Gog and Magog is Russia, and I concur. Gog leads, but Persia (Iran), Put (Libya), Ethiopia, Cush (Northern Sudan) invade Israel along with Gomer and Togarmah (Turkey).

They are supernaturally defeated in the most spectacular way. Looking at a map and a daily newspaper, one can't help but see this coalition lining up today. Turkey only just switched sides.

I am not sure where we're at with this now so I'll sum up what I meant and you and Frank can maybe respond.

I accept that the Dome and temple sharing the same space is a major view and almost (though not quite) universal.

I accept that those who want to demolish the rock are an extreme minority though I do not know the plans of the others about sharing and so on...first I heard of this but willing to accept it.

My main dispute is about the location of theTemple archaeologically - I am disputing that anyone really KNOWS where it was and tend to think that there is a lot of tradition and folklore in the mix.


Yes...apologies if I contributed to them getting OVER heated!


I am a great fan of reason, theology and philosophy and as such I have to say that if events DO pan out as you believe the Bible lays down (whether the schemata is actually Biblical or humanly derived from the Bible is another discussion....an interesting one which need not get over-heated) then of course Islam could not and would not survive.

For the simple reason that if it goes this way it means Islam is false. And so the returning Christian Jesus would sort all those things out along with other malefactors like me and BR!

So the issue is not WHAT will happen (imo) but WILL it happen? Is it likely?

Oth, the Islamic Jesus, were he to return like claimed in the Islamic prophecies would NOT mean the end of other religions such as Christianity or Judaism as they are accepted as revelations from God.

I guess I prefer that view.

Also there is large scope for a figurative interpretation of the anti-Christ and Christ's return in Islam - the anti-Christ is said to have 'one eye' symbolically or literally and this si sometimes taken to mean the US as it has one eye on the Dollar bill. This is one of my personal faves actually.

Gordon Brown had one eye too but I guess it's too late for that. Or is it?


It is appropriate and I tend to agree. Though I would say that the Jews have suffered persecution over many millennia almost non-stop and throughout it all they had one sustaining idea that motivated them as a people, to survive, stirred prophets and was the lynchpin of religious thought: that Israel would again be a nation.

Given these factors and the immense span of time historically (3000 years more or less) then it is not such a surprising prophecy.


Not sure. Some traditions in Islam say Russia also but I am doubting it. Perhaps they are actual people.


I have been hearing this since I was first able to assimilate what people were saying. That's more than 40 years. I have heard preacher after preacher say it: about Communism, the EU, Islam.

All meaning the end is imminent and having one theme: israel, Israel, Israel.

Of course it is driven by the US Xians and as such they have power and money. Israel, not being stupid, does what anyone would do: plays along and takes the benefits.

But that does not make it true. It means that certain fanatics (not you Frank, don't take it personally) consciously or unconsciously move to make it happen.

Which was the point I came in on this: to counter the allegation that Muslims working for their freedom and dying as we speak would somehow 'make the apocalypse occur' willingly - it's an obscene thought - while SOME (not you Frank) 'Christians' are actually doing it.

But it's not going to happen. We can dispense with the idea that US fundies could possibly actually be RIGHT as this is a serious discussion - so that leaves the political situation and the outcome of their beliefs. The US and the fundie XIans might love Israel but Israel will not sit back and let them do anything that does not involve Israel's best interest.

And fundie end-time ideas most certainly do not.

Well, I can only answer from a secular standpoint, since I am both ignorant of religion and not really interested in it either...

The peace between Egypt/Jordan and Israel has held since 1973, and any political changes put that peace at risk. It could get better or worse, but the clutch has been pressed in and we don't know if there is an upshift or downshift pending. If there is another war (nuclear or not), Israel will most likely win.

Oil prices swing wildly up whenever the conflict escalates. This has several effects - it could unravel the "recovery" in the west (I put it in quotes because the whole thing is a scam put in place by the Fed), it will probably make Iran and Russia more belligerent, it will cause even more massive food inflation in China and India. The whole thing is very much like the beginning of WWII.

So I think we are on the verge of WWIII for secular reasons, religion is really not important in my evaluation. The only things that matter are greed, fear, food and oil.

Here we agree. There is a question as to where the temple was actually located. Hence the speculation you see rampant around the world in religious circles.