or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › Anonymous source says desktop G5 is dead
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Anonymous source says desktop G5 is dead

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://forums.maccentral.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news020129motorolaphp&Numb er=80106&page=&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&part=&returnt " target="_blank">http://forums.maccentral.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news020129motorolaphp&Numb er=80106&page=&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&part=&returnt </a> o=http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.motorola.php

Someone with the handle of "Wohlf" claims that Moto killed development of the G5 for Macs last summer. He doesn't cite any sources, but the info is distressing nevertheless. Also, there is a quote from someone in this thread that "in 1998 Galvin swore to kill the Mac" in retaliation for Steve Jobs killing the clones. I've suspected this for years, that Motorola was purposely stalling desktop PPC development in an effort to exact revenge on Apple for killing the clones. But one would think that after all the time that has passed, Moto execs have come to terms with the clone debacle and decided that they like Apple's business. All speculation, of course, for all I know Motorola has no intention of ever making a PPC for Apple that is competitive with x86 offerings.

Advance notice to those who whine, bitch, and complain about this thread; you don't like, don't read it! Upper left of your window is a red dot, click on it and the window closes.

Discussion is invited.
post #2 of 63
So in all honesty, do you think that Motorola has been actively deceiving Apple's top management and hardware teams for the past two years? Since Apple is a PowerPC partner and must be intimately involved in the G5s development I seriously doubt that Mot would go to the trouble of an intricate fabrication of that depth. As long as IBM fabs PowerPCs there really is no danger of Motorola killing Apple by restricting the development of chips. Lest we forget, IBM is having the same clock speed troubles that Motorola is having with the PowerPC design.

Besides, a $500 million write off is nothing for a company like Motorola. Considering the breadth of markets that they are involved in, I doubt the demise of cloning was anything other than a bullet point in a board meeting five years ago. In fact, the termination of MacOS cloning did not even rate a single mention in Motorola's 1997 <a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/www.edgar-online.com/homepage;cat=business;cat=finance;cat=homepage;cat =research;ord=9930" target="_blank">10-K annual report</a>.

I really do not think that a company that did $30 billion in sales during 1997 is so concerned about the loss of a few hundred million that they would resort to petty revenge, especially considering the revenue that the revival of Apple has generated over the past five years.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Fluffy ]</p>
post #3 of 63
post #4 of 63
post #5 of 63
Thread Starter 
Well maybe so.

The main point, however, is that the G5 project has been terminated by Motorola. Did anyone read the link?

If Moto killed the G5, then what's Apple going to do? I think they are doomed without a G5, soon. Otherwise Apple is going to be at 1/4 of Intel clockspeed, then 1/8, 1/16, eventually nobody will buy Mac hardware and Apple will go belly up.

Also, Moki has heard nothing about G5 development from any of his sources. If the G5 is under development, isn't it odd that a major developer hasn't even heard about it?
post #6 of 63
I remember reading a post a couple months back from Mr. NSX over at xlr8. If anyone knows shit about future hardware, it's him. However, he's very strict about not violating NDAs. Anyway, I believe the basic gist of the post was that Power4 technology was going to be disseminated to the masses. I read somewhere else recently that IBM was very interested in spreading its Power4 tech over a broad range of processors so as to milk as much money as they could out of its development. This could all get very interesting.
post #7 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>Well maybe so.

The main point, however, is that the G5 project has been terminated by Motorola. Did anyone read the link?

If Moto killed the G5, then what's Apple going to do? I think they are doomed without a G5, soon. Otherwise Apple is going to be at 1/4 of Intel clockspeed, then 1/8, 1/16, eventually nobody will buy Mac hardware and Apple will go belly up.

Also, Moki has heard nothing about G5 development from any of his sources. If the G5 is under development, isn't it odd that a major developer hasn't even heard about it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Umm, do you believe everything you read on internet message boards? All the posts I read of yours seem to assume that whatever was written was true. Weren't you recently very adamant that the G5 would be out soon? Please, is there a G5, or isn't there? And, no offense to Moki, but I really wouldn't say that Ambrosia constitutes a "major" developer.
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
Reply
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
Reply
post #8 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>Also, there is a quote from someone in this thread that "in 1998 Galvin swore to kill the Mac" in retaliation for Steve Jobs killing the clones. I've suspected this for years, that Motorola was purposely stalling desktop PPC development in an effort to exact revenge on Apple for killing the clones.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pretty unlikely. After all, Motorola is a business, and as such, their primary concern is more likely to be making money rather than sacrificing profits just in order to exact some sort of personal revenge for long-bygone deeds.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #9 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:
<strong>

Pretty unlikely. After all, Motorola is a business, and as such, their primary concern is more likely to be making money rather than sacrificing profits just in order to exact some sort of personal revenge for long-bygone deeds.

Bye,
RazzFazz</strong><hr></blockquote>

You'd hope.

Anyway, perhaps Moto did stop G5 devolpment... by handing it over to Apple.
"It's not like Windows users don't have any power; I think they are happy with Windows, and that's an incredibly depressing thought." -Steve Jobs
Reply
"It's not like Windows users don't have any power; I think they are happy with Windows, and that's an incredibly depressing thought." -Steve Jobs
Reply
post #10 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>Also, there is a quote from someone in this thread that "in 1998 Galvin swore to kill the Mac" in retaliation for Steve Jobs killing the clones. I've suspected this for years, that Motorola was purposely stalling desktop PPC development in an effort to exact revenge on Apple for killing the clones.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's stupid. How would Motorola benefit from deliberately designing slow chips? The slower the PowerMacs are, the fewer people buy them, and the less money goes back to Motorola. It makes no sense. Motorola is a business; a few executives may have been pissed over the clone license debacle, but that doesn't mean they deliberately engaged in behavior that would hurt themselves financially, not to mention damage their reputation.
post #11 of 63
How come you people keep falling for Dawg's BS. He constantly posts things like this to get people in an uproar. He points to some foolish he said/she said thing and you all fall for it.
I'm not really here.
Reply
I'm not really here.
Reply
post #12 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Slacker:
<strong>How come you people keep falling for Dawg's BS. He constantly posts things like this to get people in an uproar. He points to some foolish he said/she said thing and you all fall for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's a concern that many have had for the past couple of years. Besides, this is a rumor site... and this is a rumor.

But no, I do not think that the G5 has been killed. And if it has, then rest assured that Apple has already begun plans for the transition to either IBMs PowerPC architecture or AMDs 64 bit chips.
post #13 of 63
Even without the G5 Apple is far from dead. OS X gives them more leaway and agility with respect to a hardware platform than they have ever had in the past. If reports are correct they have continued development of OS X for Intel, though without any commitment to a future release. It is known that it WAS in development when the project was called Rapsody (I have a copy of the CD's). The largest hurdle to convert the platform is native OS X programs that would only need to be recompiled for the new platform. The core programs for Apples success are making their way to achieving that ability, and should be out by the end of this year with a few possible exceptions. It might not be a walk in the park for Apple to do this, but the ability is there.

Another point to make, IBM is still doing well, and they also make Power PC's.
post #14 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>
And, no offense to Moki, but I really wouldn't say that Ambrosia constitutes a "major" developer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe not major in terms of number of employees, but they produce some pretty noteworthy software.
No, they aren't on the order of Adobe, but I wouldn't discount their significance.
Besides, you can bet that he has more good information than most people who post to these boards.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: ryukyu ]</p>
post #15 of 63
Gee, maybe this Wohlf guy is a *troll*? Ya think? Maybe? Possibly?

His comments are only distressing if you're not shrewd enough to discern them for what they really are: bait.
Aldo is watching....
Reply
Aldo is watching....
Reply
post #16 of 63
Junky,

This time you bought it. The steaming BS I mean. Remember? How does it feel? This guy comes from nowhere, has no proof. I know what you are going to say and there are many more plausible reasons for the G5 not coming to market yet. This is a crock ( probably spread by a troll ) and given Motorola's current state not a very likely developement. Yup, hook, line, and sinker! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #17 of 63
Moki, if he is the prez of Ambrosia, could care less about telling anyone anything. Maybe he has some time to kill and likes to fvck around with panting rumor groupies, but any major higher up would (a) not care to discuss rumor with you, and (b) not ever disclose a damned thing even remotely close to the truth.

edit: When the fvck did we start sensoring F-U-C-K ??? Fvcken ash-wholes...

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
IBL!
Reply
IBL!
Reply
post #18 of 63
Thread Starter 
Thanks to those of you who actually tried to discuss the possibility of the G5 project having been killed.

In answer to some knee-jerk criticism leveled at me:

No, I don't "believe every post I read". If you read my posts here, you will find that in some cases I am one of the lone voices of dissent, while the rest of you collectively fall for someone's BS (ahem, Dorsal?).

I don't even believe that G5 development for Macs has been killed, but this seemed like an interesting topic and I wanted to hear other AI member's opinions on it. This guy who said G5 development is dead, he could be full of BS, but the problem is that we also have people like Moki and others saying that they've heard neither hide nor hair of the G5. Since some AI members like to keep up on current rumors, I wanted to hear their viewpoints on the rumor that the G5 is "dead". Is that such a bad thing, to desire another person's perspective on something? (BTW, I notice that often, when I ask for other AI member's viewpoints on something, I get flamed. What's up with that? Doesn't anyone around here like to think for themselves?)

Finally, I think it is very likely that Moto execs dragged their feet on desktop PPC development to spite Apple. Some of you seem to think this would constitute purposely designing bad chips or something, but apparently you have no idea of how a large corporation is run. The executives who make the decisions, who are in charge, they don't do ANYTHING besides shuffle money around and bark orders at subordinate employees. If they wanted to stall desktop PPC development, then all they do is allocate less money to the PPC design team, and the result is that Apple gets slower CPUs. I don't have any information on moto's funding for their desktop PPC development, but it would be interesting to have a look at the funding over the past decade to see if there were any dramatic changes around the time that Apple killed the clones.

Finally, I'm sick of some the BS from some people around here. It's as if you have nothing constructive to say at all, the only reason you post is to sling sh!t around. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, you don't like it, then don't read it. If you want to criticize it, then do so, but please debate the idea.
post #19 of 63
Well put, JD. I think it would be interesting if Mot pulled away from desktop chip production and it wouldn't surprise me. But that doesn't mean that the engineer's weren't traded (or bought) by someone else and the R&D wasn't used. I firmly believe that Mot's roll in upcoming chips will be dwindling and they may take a purely R&D roll just to extract fab techniques for their other chips. Mot is good, but I think IBM have pushed technology a little further in new process techniques and mot is probably going to take a backseat in AIM for awhile to focus on the larger projects.
post #20 of 63
Thread Starter 
[quote] I firmly believe that Mot's roll in upcoming chips will be dwindling and they may take a purely R&D roll just to extract fab techniques for their other chips. <hr></blockquote>

Actually, if I understand what you're saying correctly, this might be a good thing. It seems that one of Moto's strengths lies in designing CPUs, for all the sh!t we like to fling in Moto's direction, the G4 is a truly amazing chip, and Altivec is the best SIMD unit (in terms of usability and ease of developing for it) according to many developers. Moto's achilles heel seems to be fabbing their chips; they can dream up awesome designs but when it comes time to do the mundane stuff, like making the damn things, Moto falls flat on their face.

But what if Moto decided to focus on CPU design, and contracted out the production of all their CPUs to another company like AMD or IBM? Hmmmmmm.... Could such a setup work on the scale that Moto would need? I know this works for other companies (I forget which ones), but they are producing CPUs on a much smaller scale than the PPC chip.
post #21 of 63


They show a G5 as well as a G6. I think the G5 is still a project in development. Either that or Motorola has no strategy as far as the PPC is concerned. Come on, seperate fact from fiction.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</p>
post #22 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>

Moto's achilles heel seems to be fabbing their chips; they can dream up awesome designs but when it comes time to do the mundane stuff, like making the damn things, Moto falls flat on their face.

But what if Moto decided to focus on CPU design, and contracted out the production of all their CPUs to another company like AMD or IBM? Hmmmmmm.... Could such a setup work on the scale that Moto would need? I know this works for other companies (I forget which ones), but they are producing CPUs on a much smaller scale than the PPC chip.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I once attended a class where the guy was an ex-Motorola employee with many years of working in their fabs. We were talking about chips and he basically told me that their fab work isn't very good.

I work with engineers who have been in the semiconducter industry for a long time. According to these guys, IBM's wafer fab costs are 2X to 4X higher than normal. This means a chip from Motorola that costs $100.00 could cost $200.00 to $400.00 dollars from IBM.


- Mark
post #23 of 63
People think Elvis is dead too.
post #24 of 63
Some people can't read.

The entire thread was about the fact that he believes MOTO WILL NOT PRODUCE THE G5 FOR APPLE. That in no way means the actual desktop G5 is dead, come on people. Ok, then what would be the otehr scenario?

Oh I know!! IBM! Come to think of it. I posted in another G5 thread a few weeks ago that someone else had said "Look to IBM for the G5" So maybe this thread of Moto not doing the G5 is the truth and instead IBM is.

WhooHooo! Either, I got my Dualie Gig-er to keep me happy till the G5 comes out.
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
post #25 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Macintosh:
<strong>People think Elvis is dead too. </strong><hr></blockquote>

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!?!!!!!!!!!
i am monkey
Reply
i am monkey
Reply
post #26 of 63
The G5 will show up in an Apple desktop machine because Apple is a great Moto customer. Motorola gets advertised and publisized because of their relationship to Apple. I dont think a G5 desktop computer is going away.

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</p>
post #27 of 63
wohlf is right. the post is true.

[quote]Oh I know!! IBM! Come to think of it. I posted in another G5 thread a few weeks ago that someone else had said "Look to IBM for the G5" So maybe this thread of Moto not doing the G5 is the truth and instead IBM is.<hr></blockquote>

i said that. i can't explain how i know so take it as you will.

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: admactanium ]</p>
post #28 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong> And, no offense to Moki, but I really wouldn't say that Ambrosia constitutes a "major" developer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.

'tis not worth it indeed.
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Carpe Aqua -- Snapz Pro X 2.0.2 for OS X..... Your digital recording device -- WireTap Pro 1.1.0 for OS X
Reply
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Carpe Aqua -- Snapz Pro X 2.0.2 for OS X..... Your digital recording device -- WireTap Pro 1.1.0 for OS X
Reply
post #29 of 63
He said "no offense". I'm sure it was not a diss. That's just the way he sees it.
post #30 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by moki:
<strong>

OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.

'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

When I said "no offense intended", that is truly what I meant. I really like all of your products (you'll have my shareware fee the moment the EV Nova is released). It just seems that something like the G5 would only go to the likes of, say, Adobe, Microsoft, Epson, etc. It was in no way meant to be an ad hominem attack, and frankly, I put greater weight on what you say than what a lot of other people say. So, if you do in fact have a G5, I apologize for my comment. And please. continue to post here; your comments are both rational and insightful and add a tone of legitimacy to these threads.
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
Reply
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
Reply
post #31 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by moki:
<strong>

OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.

'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't be pissed off at all of us moki. There are a lot of people here (myself included) who value your posts. Some even respect you (even an angry Avara player like me ). I'm sure Agent302 does too.

Back to the topic, I'm afraid that their might be some truth in Junkyard Dawg's assertion that executive's at Motorola are incompetent losers who do stupid things to spite Apple. I mean, the biggest publicity that the Motorola SPS gets (at least in the mainstream media) is Apple computers. However, instead of exploiting that, they seem to shun Apple in press releases and media interviews. Apple has 12 billion dollars to play with, so I reckon they should do something drastic like buy out Moto's PPC assets or work with IBM on making the Power4 a more mainstream CPU.

Barto
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
post #32 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by moki:
<strong>

OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.

'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

"now, now,.."
/me hands moki a lollypop

"you can just ignore the posts you dislike - like the people that you got pissed off at do."
oy!
Reply
oy!
Reply
post #33 of 63
I still think even Moto isn't as stupid to cut its own flesh for the sake of revenge against Apple, for a cause that is like 5 years old now.
Apple is a big customer, and even if that doesn't suffice, they're no the only customers who need fast chips.

I think there's way too much hacking going on over Motorola. Everyone wishes them dead in hell.
After all, the chips are great, the design is great. Their only fault is that they have problems gettin thigns up to speed, and everyone seems to think that they're the only ones facing that problem. Which of course isn't true at all, just look at Intel. Their Itanium is progressing backwards and they have to cook up alternatives "Yamhill" in case Itanium doesn't leap forward anymore.

Face it, chip design isn't childs play, thus there's unlikely going to be childish "revenge" acting either.

Give Motorola some of the peace they deserve, and just wait and see what's coming. You're certainly not going to help it by calling them dead, incompetent or whatever. the more that words gets spread, the more influence it's going to have on their stock/shares, and that eventually really wil get them to their knees.

G-news
Matyoroy!
Reply
Matyoroy!
Reply
post #34 of 63
i don't know if anyone ever read the "bottom line" of the motorola processor strategy:

"8xxx integrated processor targeting the communication and consumer markets"

well. that said, the embedded "G5" is in the final stage of development (dubbed 8450)
and there IS NOT EVEN A DESKTOP G5 PROECESSOR PLANNED. IT NEVER WAS.
it's targetted at the high end embedded and consumer markets, but not ment as a dekstop computing cpu. and mot planned this years ago already.

man, i'm pissed ;-)

at least this figure doesn't show us ANY information about any planned desktop processor after the g4 which is mentioned as "desktop computing" processor. so there either be one which is completely secret or none.
sine08
Reply
sine08
Reply
post #35 of 63
none is kinda unlikely, eh?
Matyoroy!
Reply
Matyoroy!
Reply
post #36 of 63
I think by killing Macs INSIDE the Motorola company they did enough to piss off Apple. I don't know, but Mr. Jobs sort of made the impression of REAL confidence in recent times. There is something going on, I'm sure, unless it was not killed recently. (Again, gut feeling)
post #37 of 63
In the world of printed media, there are newspapers of all varieties all around the world. Some newspapers are very good, others are not. The term "sensationalism" is routinely applied to describing the content of the lesser newspapers, and somewhat rarely to the better ones. As a rough and ready rule, sensationalism is the stock in trade of the low-rent newspapers, and good newspapers are good in no small part because of a relative lack of sensationalism.

Now let's think about this thread. Suppose that this thread were an article in a newspaper. A newspaper along the lines of, say, a London tabloid might have given this article/thread a title more or less along the lines of the one it has. This is my roundabout way of saying that this thread has a sensationalistic title.

Meanwhile, if this thread were an article in a good newspaper, I would suggest that a more appropriate title might be something like,

"Anonymous troll posts anti-Mac BS in bulletin board".

See? Extract the sensationalism and you're left with very little indeed.
post #38 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by discstickers:
Originally posted by RazzFazz:

Pretty unlikely. After all, Motorola is a business, and as such, their primary concern is more likely to be making money rather than sacrificing profits just in order to exact some sort of personal revenge for long-bygone deeds.

<strong>You'd hope. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's one reason why corps have boards of directors: to prevent childish personal motives from ruining the enterprise.
If yer gonna bother with thinking different, swing for the fences.
Reply
If yer gonna bother with thinking different, swing for the fences.
Reply
post #39 of 63
I'm sorry, Matsu, your synopsis is far too reasonable to be considered pertinent in this forum. Your comments would be better received at Ars.

[changed stuff]

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #40 of 63
There is not now, nor has there ever been a mot conspiracy/sentiment/(or any type of general move) to kill PPC for the desktop. If you go back and take a look, Mot wasn't making any more money on their clone sales than they are by just selling PPC's. The expense coupled to even the modicum of competition in that restricted space pretty much ensured that clones weren't a money maker for Mot. In fact, their PPC business is much better off with the clones dead and gone. Now they just have to worry about chips, and can leave system integration/development to the experts.

This is just a little fantasy that Apple fan boys have cooked up. IBM hasn't done any better than Mot a ramping up clock speeds. You're just in a tiff cause the x86 side seems much faster. It isn't, unless you play games. Apples could stand to be cheaper, but their performance is quite good. The whole AIM group just misread the marketing possibilities and it will take a generation of product to correct that. In reality the PPC offers comparable performance, faster in areas and slower in others. With significant advantages for DSP type stuff and photo/video work and significant disadvantages for 3-d. That's it. The chip competes. The platform competes. It's a little too expensive, sure. But there isn't now, nor has there ever been any animostity or associated conspiracy over the killing of clones.
IBL!
Reply
IBL!
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Future Apple Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › Anonymous source says desktop G5 is dead