or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Does every person own themselves?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Does every person own themselves?

Poll Results: Does each person own themselves?

 
  • 72% (8)
    Yes
  • 27% (3)
    No
  • 0% (0)
    I'm not sure
11 Total Votes  
post #1 of 82
Thread Starter 
Just a quick and curious poll among the folks here:

Does each person own themselves? If they do not, who does own them?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #2 of 82
What is a person? Is it a soul or a body? Does a soul exist - if it did would it have a different owner?

Does 'own' meaning control? Are most people in control of themselves? Or are they owned by News outlets, advertising agencies, marketing and products? Or political ideologies?

Is it different for different people and classes? Are some people in the third world owned by the West? Are the working class owned by the Capitalists?

We need more data - the answer is undeniably 'no' but we need to know WHY.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #3 of 82
I need to know what "own" is. Do children own themselves? They have to do what their guardians says. People that are incarcerated aren't free. Does the state own them? They still have some individual rights.

What about DNA? Wasn't there a court ruling where an individual's DNA was patented by a company?
post #4 of 82
We'll admit that "own" is an ambiguous word here... but...
The answer depends on the laws governing the political entity of which you are a member.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #5 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

We'll admit that "own" is an ambiguous word here... but...
The answer depends on the laws governing the political entity of which you are a member.

Why? Why do we have to obey such laws? What gives someone the right to pass a law regarding ownership of someone else?

If you accept - as I do - that everyone is existentially (ie over and above any laws) an equal and no-one is born 'better' or 'higher' than anyone else for any reason then how can this position be true?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #6 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why? Why do we have to obey such laws? What gives someone the right to pass a law regarding ownership of someone else?

If you accept - as I do - that everyone is existentially (ie over and above any laws) an equal and no-one is born 'better' or 'higher' than anyone else for any reason then how can this position be true?

Because, right or wrong, we live within the societies we create... and we have created various rules within those societies.

I didn't mean to imply that it was morally correct... just that that's the way it is.

Now... If you want to live in fantasy-land... then sure, you are the master of your own destiny!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #7 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Because, right or wrong, we live within the societies we create... and we have created various rules within those societies.

I didn't mean to imply that it was morally correct... just that that's the way it is.

Now... If you want to live in fantasy-land... then sure, you are the master of your own destiny!

But I was thinking the original poster was asking a more metaphysical/philosophical question but I could be wrong.

If he is though then the above does not apply because it is not a natural state - we were not like that in the caves or for the vast part - millions of years as opposed to say, around 5000 years - of our history.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #8 of 82
Does every person own themselves?

Yes.

Does this mean every person is free from external influences or environment?

No.

NEXT...........

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #9 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Does every person own themselves?

Yes.

Seems odd....I've seen you get owned here on a daily basis Trumpy....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #10 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Seems odd....I've seen you get owned here on a daily basis Trumpy....


Leave the bedroom out of this Sego.

Remember I told you the hot chat costs extra and there isn't much left on your credit limit.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #11 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

leave the bedroom out of this sego.

Remember i told you the hot chat costs extra and there isn't much left on your credit limit.

+1 :d
post #12 of 82
If people did really own themselves, wouldn't they be allowed to take drugs if they like? Or commit suicide? So, no - there is only limited ownership of your own body.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #13 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If people did really own themselves, wouldn't they be allowed to take drugs if they like? Or commit suicide? So, no - there is only limited ownership of your own body.

Maybe they start off owning themselves but sell themselves and all associated rights into slavery ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If people did really own themselves, wouldn't they be allowed to take drugs if they like? Or commit suicide? So, no - there is only limited ownership of your own body.

Good question. Maybe people have been convinced that someone else has say over what they can or can't do with their own lives and bodies.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #15 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Good question. Maybe people have been convinced that someone else has say over what they can or can't do with their own lives and bodies.

Everything has two aspects: an enslaving aspect and freeing aspect.

You have a religion that can free you and a religion that can enslave you. Politics that can free you and politics that can enslave you. Ideas that can free you and ideas that can enslave you.

But the trick is that they are the SAME ideas, the SAME religion - there is no 'good' or 'bad' aspect really. It's an illusion. People who want to be free can use things for that. People who want to be enslaved will use the same thing to that end.

All it really comes down to is this: if you want to own yourself and think you do then you do.

If you want to be a slave - and most people do, even if unconsciously - then you will make this choice.

That's why some people who want to take drugs do so....and others who 'respect the law' don't.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #16 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Everything has two aspects: an enslaving aspect and freeing aspect.

You have a religion that can free you and a religion that can enslave you. Politics that can free you and politics that can enslave you. Ideas that can free you and ideas that can enslave you.

But the trick is that they are the SAME ideas, the SAME religion - there is no 'good' or 'bad' aspect really. It's an illusion. People who want to be free can use things for that. People who want to be enslaved will use the same thing to that end.

All it really comes down to is this: if you want to own yourself and think you do then you do.

If you want to be a slave - and most people do, even if unconsciously - then you will make this choice.

That's why some people who want to take drugs do so....and others who 'respect the law' don't.

There's certainly some truth to what you say...but we also must deal with those who think they have the right and authority to enslave you (to one degree or another) and go to great lengths to make this happen.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #17 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

There's certainly some truth to what you say...but we also must deal with those who think they have the right and authority to enslave you (to one degree or another) and go to great lengths to make this happen.

They can't do it if you don't give them permission though - that's my point.

There are many forms of this permission: 'the ballot box', 'democracy', 'God', 'tradition and patriotism'.

I see them as like aliases on the desktop that used to point to something real but that somehow got changed to a contract where you sign away your life if you click it.

But it's obvious and many people see through it - you and me for instance - it's not hard. Those who want to uphold the status quo do so because they actually don't want the responsibility of being free. That's just my opinion though....if they were to be individuals then it requires an ongoing commitment of effort and thought as well as other things....some people just can't be bothered and want their simple material life.

Is fair enough.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #18 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Maybe they start off owning themselves but sell themselves and all associated rights into slavery ?

No, we are born into slavery. Only the very rich have the capability to renounce their citizenship and become worldwide nomads that own themselves, everybody else is shackled to the invasive laws of the state that they live in.

The western nations have the greatest chance of becoming free - most of the laws that the US has that violate the whole "you own your own body" concept come from Christianity. Trying to enforce religious moral code via the legal system results in you not owning your own body. You should be allowed to do anything to yourself that does not hurt anyone else.

Luckily, religion is dying here - there are 10% fewer religious people than there were 10 years ago, and 6% more atheists. A similar generational change occurred in Quebec in the 1980s - the church used to run everything, and then all of a sudden people stopped going and they lost most of their power.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #19 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No, we are born into slavery.

Only to the extent they are conditioned to accept 'the Law'.

Quote:
Only the very rich have the capability to renounce their citizenship and become worldwide nomads that own themselves, everybody else is shackled to the invasive laws of the state that they live in.

I feel you are describing yourself a bit.... you may see everything in terms of money but many people don't. They choose not to even.

Question: do you obey all laws?

If you answer 'no' to that then you invalidate your position as you are not 'shackled to them' if you disobey them. You are free.

And of course you would be choosing to disobey...

Quote:
The western nations have the greatest chance of becoming free -

Err....ok...right....

The West are the most successfully enslaved - I doubt the mass of people will ever see though it now. They tried in the 60s and they won't get another chance.

Quote:
most of the laws that the US has that violate the whole "you own your own body" concept come from Christianity.

I think from a US interpretation of Xianity but I take your point...

Quote:
Trying to enforce religious moral code via the legal system results in you not owning your own body. You should be allowed to do anything to yourself that does not hurt anyone else.

True.... religions should never impose anything. Actually they all state this themselves so I guess the people that try to do it are not really religious.

Quote:
Luckily, religion is dying here - there are 10% fewer religious people than there were 10 years ago, and 6% more atheists.

I think you might be a tad overoptimistic.... religion is in no way dying in the US...Islam is rising and I see no sign of Xianity or Christianity waning.

Atheists are getting noisier that's true but this is just a fashion thing by a few B-list 'creative types' and the odd egomaniac 'thinker'

Will soon peter out....at least we'd better hope so or I'll probably be among the first at the stake or firing squad or whatever it is they choose as a leitmotif...torture probably if they appoint Harris as the Witchfinder.

Quote:
A similar generational change occurred in Quebec in the 1980s - the church used to run everything, and then all of a sudden people stopped going and they lost most of their power.

Strange...I thought that Canada had some form of religious revival in this period. Maybe they stopped going to orthodox churches...there are others, you know that right?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #20 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

most of the laws that the US has that violate the whole "you own your own body" concept come from Christianity.

While we could debate about "most", there are other non-religious (at least in the traditional way we use that term) sources of legislation and policies that violate people's self-ownership. The left is doing a great job these days with their nutrition fascism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Trying to enforce religious moral code via the legal system results in you not owning your own body.

Again, I think you need to broaden your perspective here. Yes, traditional "religious" entities have tried to enforce their moral codes, but things are not limited to these by a long shot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Luckily, religion is dying here...




Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

the church used to run everything, and then all of a sudden people stopped going and they lost most of their power.

And others are rushing to fill the void.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #21 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Question: do you obey all laws?

If you answer 'no' to that then you invalidate your position as you are not 'shackled to them' if you disobey them. You are free.

And of course you would be choosing to disobey...

But you can only choose to disobey for so long until you are thrown in the brig. At that point are you free? It certain aspects I would say yes but in this sense no.
post #22 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Strange...I thought that Canada had some form of religious revival in this period. Maybe they stopped going to orthodox churches...there are others, you know that right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution

I was wrong about the time - it was the 1960s, not the 1980s. Canada is very secular - I grew up in a redneck small town in British Columbia, and only 40 or so (out of 1000) people went to church.

The reason that I think that the west is more free, is that you see more body modification, acceptance of gays, etc, here. Choosing to disobey laws and getting away with it is besides the point - if they catch you they punish you if you use heroin, you are not free to do so, so you don't own that aspect of your body - the government does.

And here is why I think religion is dying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...#ARIS_findings
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #23 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbird5 View Post

But you can only choose to disobey for so long until you are thrown in the brig. At that point are you free? It certain aspects I would say yes but in this sense no.

Or killed.

I think the US has mastered created a sort of "soft despotism" the iron fist inside of a velvet glove sort of thing. This combined with a largely docile and compliant populous...ouch. The funny thing is that the people (in the US anyway) that get most upset and start protesting are the ones receiving government checks...when someone threatens to reduce the flow from that faucet (not even eliminate it.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #24 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The reason that I think that the west is more free, is that you see more body modification...

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #25 of 82
Thread Starter 
So ownership...

My definition would be something like this: "the state or fact of exclusive rights and control" or "legal* right of possession (and control)" over something.

*I would think of "legal" here in the more general and broad sense as opposed to the narrow sense of some current legislative situation.

I probably should have worded my question a bit better.

"Does every person own themselves?" could be interpreted as a question about the present state (which isn't so much what I was asking) or about whether one has, as a basic, natural right of ownership over themselves (their body, actions, energy, mind, labor, etc.)

I'm speaking about this concept.

I think we would all agree that in terms of the present state/condition of most people, someone else (usually the state) is imposing or exercising some degree of ownership of them. Whether this is right or legitimate or not. Where I'm going is whether this is right or not. Starting from the essential question of whether every person has, basically, essentially and inherently a natural and moral right of ownership over themselves or not and, if they do not, then who does?

So is the statement "the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over something" a decent starting point for the definition of ownership?

If it is, would we say that every person has a basic, essential, inherent and natural right of ownership to themselves?

If they do not, why not? If they don't, does anyone else? Who? Why?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #26 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Just a quick and curious poll among the folks here:

Does each person own themselves? If they do not, who does own them?

We are all under GOD'S control.He is the controller of mankind.
post #27 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

We are all under GOD'S control.He is the controller of mankind.

Control and ownership are very different.

I agree we are all 'owned' by God but for someone who does not believe in God they would need to argue a different philosophically position.

Personally, even though I do believe in God, I do not accept that we are under God's control as such. Perhaps we are pre-destined to certain things but that is different again.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #28 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Control and ownership are very different.

I disagree. I would say that the right to control something (partially or completely) implies ownership of that thing (partially or completely).


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I agree we are all 'owned' by God but for someone who does not believe in God they would need to argue a different philosophically position.

Personally, even though I do believe in God, I do not accept that we are under God's control as such. Perhaps we are pre-destined to certain things but that is different again.

As to the owned and controlled by God aspect...

First my question was intended to speak to our human and earthly situation more than any relation to a higher being like God.

Second, I think the issue of God's ownership and control over us is a bit more complicated. I too believe in God and believe He created us. But I believe he's created us with free will. I don't believe that He controls us (though He certainly would have the capacity to do so) as such, rather He seeks for us to voluntarily submit ourselves to Him. In a sense you might say that God "owns" each of us in, say, a "legal" sense (by virtue of His act of creation and by virtue of His total ownership of everything He's created...people...things..etc.) but has delegated all control of us to someone else (I'd say to each of individually) thus giving us this free will. You could also say that he has the right, authority and capacity to control each of us, but specifically limits Himself in this in order to give us free will.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #29 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I disagree. I would say that the right to control something (partially or completely) implies ownership of that thing (partially or completely).

What if you borrow you friend's car for a month - when you drive it you control it but you do not own it do you?

Conversely, if you own say 50,000 dollars but you know nothing of investment and have committed to a financial scheme where a trusted advisor manages your money on the markets for a set period during which you cannot get it. You own it but do not control it.

Quote:
As to the owned and controlled by God aspect...

First my question was intended to speak to our human and earthly situation more than any relation to a higher being like God.

Second, I think the issue of God's ownership and control over us is a bit more complicated. I too believe in God and believe He created us. But I believe he's created us with free will. I don't believe that He controls us (though He certainly would have the capacity to do so) as such, rather He seeks for us to voluntarily submit ourselves to Him. In a sense you might say that God "owns" each of us in, say, a "legal" sense (by virtue of His act of creation and by virtue of His total ownership of everything He's created...people...things..etc.) but has delegated all control of us to someone else (I'd say to each of individually) thus giving us this free will. You could also say that he has the right, authority and capacity to control each of us, but specifically limits Himself in this in order to give us free will.

I agree with this in the main - a lot depends on one's theological position but from mine 'God' is the thing that has always existed and always will and nothing else shares this characteristic (or else they would also be God). Given that, it is kind of an irrelevance the question of free-will or control - it's more that all created things will pass away regardless of their state and only God will remain so - in a sense - the ownership question is immaterial.

But others will have a different religious view - in any case, it is possibly not relevant to the discussion here and now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #30 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

What if you borrow you friend's car for a month - when you drive it you control it but you do not own it do you?

Conversely, if you own say 50,000 dollars but you know nothing of investment and have committed to a financial scheme where a trusted advisor manages your money on the markets for a set period during which you cannot get it.

I believe these would represent examples where you retain ownership but have temporarily delegated some control for a specific period of time and/or purpose. The car is still yours. The money is still yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You own it but do not control it.

For a temporary period. I still think ownership implies the right to control. Can you define ownership in some other way?

I think control probably needs to be divided into at least two things:

- right to control
- capacity or ability to control (a person physically stronger than me might have the capacity to control me, but not the right; conversely a person who has a right of control of something may not have the capacity or ability to do so)

And there might be a couple more like:

- authority to control (possibly delegated by the one who has the right to control)
- privilege to control (possibly granted by the one who has the right to control)

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I agree with this in the main - a lot depends on one's theological position but from mine 'God' is the thing that has always existed and always will and nothing else shares this characteristic (or else they would also be God).

I agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Given that, it is kind of an irrelevance the question of free-will or control - it's more that all created things will pass away regardless of their state and only God will remain so - in a sense - the ownership question is immaterial.

Agreed...from an eternal and spiritual and relationship with God sense.

Here again I should have been more clear in my postings to indicate I was speaking about our earthly and temporal relationships. In other words among those in this world do you own yourself or do others own you or is it something else?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #31 of 82
Let's just call this thread what it is. The original poster wants to say that taxes are stealing and government is evil, all predicated on a concept of self-ownership. What the original poster ALWAYS neglects, though, is that if he wants to live in a society, he has a certain responsibility to that society. It has nothing to do with ownership. It has to do with responsibility in exchange for the privilege of living within said society.

The original poster really needs to just go off the grid and become a mountain man already.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #32 of 82
People don't own themselves, they own objects, houses, pets and such.

If you want to make an argument against someone harming you, it's not necessary to add your body to the list of things you own, you just need to point out that you have individual rights.
post #33 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Let's just call this thread what it is. The original poster wants to say that taxes are stealing and government is evil, all predicated on a concept of self-ownership. What the original poster ALWAYS neglects, though, is that if he wants to live in a society, he has a certain responsibility to that society. It has nothing to do with ownership. It has to do with responsibility in exchange for the privilege of living within said society.

The original poster really needs to just go off the grid and become a mountain man already.

At what stage does responsibility become enslavement?

Should you come to my house and be my servant all because I declare you live in a society, I have unmet needs and darn it, you have a responsibility to meet them?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

You are born. You are free. You have the right to pursue aka engage in action to do what makes you happy. Governments are created to facilitate this, not enslave one party to another.

As for mountain man, and grid, they may end up better off when we can't produce electricity in California due to a tortoise, can't grow food due to a minnow, and have the little you can do taxed and regulated at prohibitive levels.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #34 of 82
Straw man straw man silly silly straw man. Straw man straw man not worth responding to.

On this forum, that song might just go platinum.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #35 of 82
You read it folks, the Declaration of Independence is a strawman.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #36 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Let's just call this thread what it is. The original poster wants to say that taxes are stealing and government is evil, all predicated on a concept of self-ownership. What the original poster ALWAYS neglects, though, is that if he wants to live in a society, he has a certain responsibility to that society. It has nothing to do with ownership. It has to do with responsibility in exchange for the privilege of living within said society.

The original poster really needs to just go off the grid and become a mountain man already.



BR, you crack me up. This form of "discussion" which you've reverted to where you don't actually directly address the questions or speak about a person in a 3rd person for some bizarre reason...like you don't have the courage of addressing me (or the question) directly....it's very intriguing. Very intriguing indeed. Furthermore you (just above) accuse someone of engaging in a logical fallacy while offering your own in this post.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #37 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

People don't own themselves, they own objects, houses, pets and such.

Your body is an object.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

If you want to make an argument against someone harming you, it's not necessary to add your body to the list of things you own, you just need to point out that you have individual rights.

And what are those rights? What are they based on?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #38 of 82
The straw man was the idiotic servant comment. Don't be so obtuse.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #39 of 82
Yes they do and No they don't. For sure they are stewards of themselves. Whatever the case, spiritually, I believe we do not own ourselves. In the US, we like to think we own ourselves, and at a basic physical level we do as we can reclaim control of ourselves at any time. However, the comments earlier about ownership being predicated by control is only partly right. I think that ownership is predicated by the right to return control of the object in question to ones self. Yes one can loan a car and the control of that car in in the hands of the then steward of the vehicle. But that person is not the owner of said vehicle and at any time the true owner can come and reclaim control rightfully.

Anyhow, not a simple open and shut case, could be an interesting discussion, but I have a feeling it won't be based on what I have seen so far.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #40 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Your body is an object.

It think in the context it was clear I was referring to objects other than your body.

Quote:
And what are those rights? What are they based on?

The right not to have physical force initiated against you (the NIF principle as Libertarians would call it). What is it based on? The idea that humans survive by thinking, and violence is antithetical to thought (as Objectivists would say). Not based on "owning" yourself.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Does every person own themselves?