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Apple releases developer preview of Mac OS X 10.7 Lion - Page 3

post #81 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

There is absolutely nothing in your post, or in Apple's actions, to justify your conclusion. Sounds like you just wanted to say that and threw in a bunch of words on various topics so that it might seem like you had made an actual argument.

Maybe you missed the part where I cited the list of products they have killed? Does that count? All products that MATTER to the post-production industry? Unlike many posters on sites like this I'm sure, I don't have an Apple tattoo, don't live in my Mom's basement, and don't sit back and enjoy being spoon-fed the way I should feel about technology as it pertains to my ability to earn a living. I was an Apple geek in 1992. I owned (and still do) a Mac clone when Apple almost went away. I am certain I am a small fish in the pond with my Apple credentials, but I am a certified FCP7 trainer and am part of a very relevant reseller. I have every right to be disillusioned with Apple going in the direction of greatest opportunity for revenue. It makes the most business sense. However, I don't think it's the only way, and AGAIN, comes at the expense of the very large (yet comparatively irrelevant) group that kept them in business in the 90s.
post #82 of 110
Does FileVault still require you to log out of your user account before Time Machine will backup?

And see how hard it is now with Mission Control when you are working, flipping among multiple documents in the same app, like three spreadsheets? They are all on top of each other and you can't even see their filenames.

When it comes to OSX, Apple's tendency to *not* sweat the details lets them down.
Potentially great features become compromised, OK features and OSX's best feature is that it is not as bad as Windows.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #83 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

Maybe you missed the part where I cited the list of products they have killed? Does that count? All products that MATTER to the post-production industry? Unlike many posters on sites like this I'm sure, I don't have an Apple tattoo, don't live in my Mom's basement, and don't sit back and enjoy being spoon-fed the way I should feel about technology as it pertains to my ability to earn a living. I was an Apple geek in 1992. I owned (and still do) a Mac clone when Apple almost went away. I am certain I am a small fish in the pond with my Apple credentials, but I am a certified FCP7 trainer and am part of a very relevant reseller. I have every right to be disillusioned with Apple going in the direction of greatest opportunity for revenue. It makes the most business sense. However, I don't think it's the only way, and AGAIN, comes at the expense of the very large (yet comparatively irrelevant) group that kept them in business in the 90s.

Killing a few (I think you listed 3, including a mouse?) products hardly makes them evil. Is every company that ever kills a product evil?
post #84 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Killing a few (I think you listed 3, including a mouse?) products hardly makes them evil. Is every company that ever kills a product evil?

You're being a fanboy and getting offended by the figurative use of a term. "Evil" was used in reference to their depiction of IBM and/or Microsoft from the 1985-1995 as such.

I am not getting angry about the death of a few products, but the trend indicated by those things and others that will mean the death of a industry that they had a very large part in making accessible (or improving, if you're not an Avid fan). It is my opinion that this trend will not benefit creative professionals. That is all.
post #85 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

Maybe you missed the part where I cited the list of products they have killed? Does that count? All products that MATTER to the post-production industry? Unlike many posters on sites like this I'm sure, I don't have an Apple tattoo, don't live in my Mom's basement, and don't sit back and enjoy being spoon-fed the way I should feel about technology as it pertains to my ability to earn a living. I was an Apple geek in 1992. I owned (and still do) a Mac clone when Apple almost went away. I am certain I am a small fish in the pond with my Apple credentials, but I am a certified FCP7 trainer and am part of a very relevant reseller. I have every right to be disillusioned with Apple going in the direction of greatest opportunity for revenue. It makes the most business sense. However, I don't think it's the only way, and AGAIN, comes at the expense of the very large (yet comparatively irrelevant) group that kept them in business in the 90s.

"List of products that Apple has killed"? You mean like "the spirit of Snow Leopard"? Or "software resellers"? Or the Mighty Mouse, which everyone knows was the lynchpin of pro video setups everywhere? The only actual relevant product you listed was the server, after that you were very obviously padding so that it might seem like you had a point.

You sound like a software reseller who doesn't like the rise of the Apple Stores, so you're floundering around trying to make some kind of half assed fake argument that Apple is abandoning the pro video market. The funny thing is, there are actually coherent points to be made as to how Apple is currently underserving that market, you've just managed to miss them all, in favor of vague hand-waving about how iOS devices are good for children so mumble mumble Lion must be bad.

And then, of course, you go straight to the tried and true "Mom's basement/sheep/fanboy" nonsense, which kind of tips your hand. Maybe you'd have a better time selling your wares if you weren't such a reflexive dick.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #86 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellihence View Post

I do use Macs, have been since the 90's, I currently own an iMac, no need to buy Lion if it doesn't offer anything new. Snow Leopard was nothing but a developers OS, hence the cheap asking price for it. Will Apple finally make a firewall that includes outbound controls? There is a list of things that they need to fix before they move on. I see no real reason to upgrade.



Mac user .... still stuck in the 90's

There ... I fixed it for you.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #87 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknick View Post

Too soon to shitcan Rosetta? Really?

Here in 2011 I can say that I have no apps installed that require Rosetta. The vast majority of developers have upgraded their software to Intel (or, at least, universal) so Rosetta is, and damn well should be, a non argument.

I would have agreed until last week when I re-installed Corel Painter XI and discovered that their crappy serial-number management stuff doesn't run correctly on Intel (it had migrated across machines and decided it needed to re-validate at some point, which I couldn't get working, so I tried a re-install...) - had to run the app first in Rosetta, license it, then re-run back on Intel, then re-license it. WTF? (Not so much an Apple issue, more that Corel sucks. )

But it would be irritating not to even be able to do a work-around. The way they have it now (not installed, but downloads/installs if needed) seems like a pretty good approach, and I doubt there are any underpinnings that they really need to pull - Snow Leopard had more low-level changes (uh, I think?) than are planned for Lion, so hopefully they just leave it alone.
post #88 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

You're being a fanboy and getting offended by the figurative use of a term. "Evil" was used in reference to their depiction of IBM and/or Microsoft from the 1985-1995 as such. ...

Actually, I'm just saying that you seem to be having some sort of emotional overreaction to a couple of product kills, one of which is a mouse, and another of which was a nebulous entity. And I don't see the parallels you are claiming anyway.
post #89 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

Maybe you missed the part where I cited the list of products they have killed? Does that count? All products that MATTER to the post-production industry? Unlike many posters on sites like this I'm sure, I don't have an Apple tattoo, don't live in my Mom's basement, and don't sit back and enjoy being spoon-fed the way I should feel about technology as it pertains to my ability to earn a living. I was an Apple geek in 1992. I owned (and still do) a Mac clone when Apple almost went away. I am certain I am a small fish in the pond with my Apple credentials, but I am a certified FCP7 trainer and am part of a very relevant reseller. I have every right to be disillusioned with Apple going in the direction of greatest opportunity for revenue. It makes the most business sense. However, I don't think it's the only way, and AGAIN, comes at the expense of the very large (yet comparatively irrelevant) group that kept them in business in the 90s.

I don't think it is fair to suggest that people who disagree with you are "spoon-fed the way I should feel about technology". People have different opinions, no need to disparage that.
post #90 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

You can see on the full screen apps here http://www.apple.com/macosx/lion/ that there are no scroll bars visible. They must be iPad style ones that hide when you're not scrolling.

Imagine this:

A future UI and hardware update that allows you to position your hands normally on your keyboard, trackpad & mouse, but it provides you with a visual cue on-screen that suggests hand position as if you had them up in front of you. The net effect would be screen interaction with visual feedback without the exhausting 'arms raised' position that renders most touchscreens useless.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

You're being a fanboy and getting offended by the figurative use of a term. "Evil" was used in reference to their depiction of IBM and/or Microsoft from the 1985-1995 as such.

I am not getting angry about the death of a few products, but the trend indicated by those things and others that will mean the death of a industry that they had a very large part in making accessible (or improving, if you're not an Avid fan). It is my opinion that this trend will not benefit creative professionals. That is all.

I hate to respond to your post again, but I have to disagree with your description and use of "evil" in your prior post. You said, "Apple has become the evil, self-righteous establishment they once considered their adversary". You were not merely depicting IBM and/or Microsoft, but were labeling Apple "evil". I think that is really extreme and unnecessary to make the point you were trying to make.

Also, I find it likewise unneccesary to resort to the term "fanboy" to make any sort of point or counterargument. When I read those words used to counter an argument, what comes to mind is the use of childish name-calling, and unfortunately, whatever arguments that were made gets lost and sometimes ignored.
post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You sound like a software reseller who doesn't like the rise of the Apple Stores, so you're floundering around trying to make some kind of half assed fake argument that Apple is abandoning the pro video market. The funny thing is, there are actually coherent points to be made as to how Apple is currently underserving that market, you've just managed to miss them all, in favor of vague hand-waving about how iOS devices are good for children so mumble mumble Lion must be bad.

...I love the Apple stores - for consumers. The Apple employees can't do for my clients what I can, and cannot sell the other 98% of the gear my clients need. Software, and Apple products, for that matter, represent a very small portion of my sales. However, many solutions depend on the Mac OS and Apple hardware to a tremendous degree. The death of the Xserve killed an entire market segment and has a profound effect on many companies whose software relied on that hardware to be practical.

Quote:
...you'd have a better time selling your wares if you weren't such a reflexive dick.

...I don't have a problem selling my wares, as you suggest. I also won't deny that I may come off as a dick in this context, as feathers get ruffled. Being frank and realistic is beneficial in objectively recommending solutions in my industry. Nobody seems to address the concern of the company "trending" away from any concern with professionals, which is undeniable. I will say, however, that this Thunderbolt technology could really be a boost for the hardware solutions for professionals. If the OS could remain Snow Leopard, or an improvement that is more standard and less "iOS," then I would be much less whiny and unbearable.
post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You sound like a software reseller who doesn't like the rise of the Apple Stores...

...I didn't realize, you may have misinterpreted my view on apps - It's the "App Store" online that is the bummer for my clients, not the Apple store. They, when spending $45k on a massive solution, don't always have the ability to break out a credit card to buy $2k worth of software via the app store, especially when they don't have the machine yet. It sounds immaterial to someone who doesn't deal with government clients and competitive bids and such, but I promise this type of shift will be a major inconvenience for professionals. I am sure people will adapt, but once more it is an opinion of mine and clearly one not shared by everyone. For the record, I am not crying about the whopping couple of points to be made on selling Apple software. I am evangelizing for my clients, many of whom have already voiced concerns.
post #94 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

I would like Rosetta to continue, because I won't upgrade beyond Office 2004. There are other old programs that are better than the newer ones. I'll continue to use iMovie HD until it no longer works.

Apple cut off support for OS9 programs, but they should continue to offer Rosetta.

I agree. I have one program that still needs Rosetta - Quicken.
post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

...I love the Apple stores - for consumers. The Apple employees can't do for my clients what I can, and cannot sell the other 98% of the gear my clients need. Software, and Apple products, for that matter, represent a very small portion of my sales. However, many solutions depend on the Mac OS and Apple hardware to a tremendous degree. The death of the Xserve killed an entire market segment and has a profound effect on many companies whose software relied on that hardware to be practical.



...I don't have a problem selling my wares, as you suggest. I also won't deny that I may come off as a dick in this context, as feathers get ruffled. Being frank and realistic is beneficial in objectively recommending solutions in my industry. Nobody seems to address the concern of the company "trending" away from any concern with professionals, which is undeniable. I will say, however, that this Thunderbolt technology could really be a boost for the hardware solutions for professionals. If the OS could remain Snow Leopard, or an improvement that is more standard and less "iOS," then I would be much less whiny and unbearable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACK View Post

...I didn't realize, you may have misinterpreted my view on apps - It's the "App Store" online that is the bummer for my clients, not the Apple store. They, when spending $45k on a massive solution, don't always have the ability to break out a credit card to buy $2k worth of software via the app store, especially when they don't have the machine yet. It sounds immaterial to someone who doesn't deal with government clients and competitive bids and such, but I promise this type of shift will be a major inconvenience for professionals. I am sure people will adapt, but once more it is an opinion of mine and clearly one not shared by everyone. For the record, I am not crying about the whopping couple of points to be made on selling Apple software. I am evangelizing for my clients, many of whom have already voiced concerns.

First of all, I withdraw my dick remark in the face of these very reasonable responses.

I still think, though, that it remains to be seen if Apple is seriously trending away from professional users on the Mac platform. I know the conventional wisdom is that iOS is getting all the love, so that OS X is both neglected and, insofar as it does receive attention, gets iPad-ified.

But while some of the interface changes in Lion might seem a bit tinkertoy, there are other changes under the hood (including OS X Server as a standard component, versioning, state saving) that I would think would be very useful for all of Apple's customers, not just the newer or less tech savvy. And, to the extent that there are UI elements that would get in the way of a pro workflow, they seem to be optional.

Remember that the iOS platform is in its infancy. I don't think it's necessarily the case that any gestures toward that model in desktop software is automatically leading towards ease of use over functionality-- it's just that so far, iOS is all about nailing the basics. My guess is that iOS, along with whatever crossover desktop bits, will continue to mature, offering more and more of the customary desktop computing experience (albeit with a different philosophy regarding file systems and exposed system stuff).

Now, it's undeniably true that Apple has been neglecting its pro video apps, but there is at least a purported Jobs email claiming that a total rewrite of FCP is coming this spring. The pro towers seem to be a bit of an afterthought, but they're there and they're reasonably powerful, if a bit overpriced.

Finally, I can see what you mean about needing to be able to have software in hand in advance of a machine to install it on, and how this doesn't work with the App Store model, but doesn't it seem pretty likely that the big software houses making the kind of heavy duty apps you're talking about will continue to sell through their own channels? Can't really see Adobe giving up on direct sales. And I think Apple knows its own customer base at least well enough to see that moving FCP Studio to an exclusive app store model would be counter productive. They might do what they've done with Aperture, and offer it on the App Store as well, at a reduced price. Then, the customer can decide if the trade-offs are worth it.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

You can see on the full screen apps here http://www.apple.com/macosx/lion/ that there are no scroll bars visible. They must be iPad style ones that hide when you're not scrolling.

There are no scroll bars on the iPad. There is a scroll bar type of thingy that shows where you are on the page. And if they were hidden, how could you grab them to scroll?
Notice the iPhoto Shot has a scroll bar on the right side.
Full screen means it is not in a sizable/movable window.
post #97 of 110
With the introduction of Lion, I sense the sun setting on the current ERA of computing. Truly, 10.7 is the beginning of a paradigm shift where we seamlessly shift from the various screens we interact with. It will be interesting to see if ATV UI will "hook up" with iOS/OSX.
post #98 of 110
Lion Server. I am relieved.
post #99 of 110
Wow that Resume feature is amazing. I believe Microsoft had that way back when Vista came out. Who's photocopier's are running again?

And full screen apps? Awesome yet ANOTHER interface style. Let's recap: Aqua, Chrome, Dashboard, Stacks, and now Full Screen.

Slow clap for Apple....

Can we please just bring back NeXTStep?
post #100 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post

Wow that Resume feature is amazing. I believe Microsoft had that way back when Vista came out. Who's photocopier's are running again?

And full screen apps? Awesome yet ANOTHER interface style. Let's recap: Aqua, Chrome, Dashboard, Stacks, and now Full Screen.

Slow clap for Apple....

Can we please just bring back NeXTStep?

Really, on a "PER APPLICATION" level? I haven't noticed it.

Full-screen isn't an interface style (not in the same way Aqua is [i.e. a theme/skin]). and neither is Dashboard, Stacks or Chrome (whatever that actually is?).
post #101 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

There are no scroll bars on the iPad. There is a scroll bar type of thingy that shows where you are on the page. And if they were hidden, how could you grab them to scroll?
Notice the iPhoto Shot has a scroll bar on the right side.
Full screen means it is not in a sizable/movable window.

The scrollbars appear briefly when you mouseover the window/part of the UI and then you can click them. Other than that, they appear when you scroll. It's not a problem on iOS devices, which generally have to scroll a lot more than a desktop.
post #102 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

Really, on a "PER APPLICATION" level? I haven't noticed it.

Full-screen isn't an interface style...

Really? What is it then?

Let's recap - Non-full screen - regular OS X title bar, background color, scroll bars etc. Full screen - charcoal theme, different scroll bar (or lack of) behaviour, different font sizing, spacing etc. etc. etc.
post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

Autosave sounds like a nightmare. People don't expect their computer to automatically save what they're doing.

Reeeeaaaaally? Why is that? There are plenty of applications that already do it, and users are doing just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

And versions? Hard to believe that it's taken until 2011 to finally get around to pulling this feature out of 1980s VMS, isn't it?

You mean you can't believe it's taken until 2011 for disk space to be plenty and cheap enough to have that functionality on the desktop, right?

It's not like they couldn't replicate the VMS behavior in a computer in 2000. But with 7GB HD on their lineup, that wouldn't be so wise.

(Yes, the 2000 iMac had a 7 --seven-- GB hard disk).
post #104 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

Really, on a "PER APPLICATION" level? I haven't noticed it.

Full-screen isn't an interface style (not in the same way Aqua is [i.e. a theme/skin]). and neither is Dashboard, Stacks or Chrome (whatever that actually is?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post

Really? What is it then?

Let's recap - Non-full screen - regular OS X title bar, background color, scroll bars etc. Full screen - charcoal theme, different scroll bar (or lack of) behaviour, different font sizing, spacing etc. etc. etc.

You seem anal-retentively convinced that using one and only interface style would be somehow better...

Apple uses different styles for different parts and behaviors of apps. For one, it helps makes the UI less monotonous.

UI consistency has nothing to do with styles --it is about BEHAVIOR.

The problem with KDE and GNOME, say, is not that one button is round while the other isn't, it's that widgets react differently.

That's also the problem with Swing apps or QT apps replicating the OS X style. While the look is the same the behavior is different --the reverse is not a problem.

Another example: web apps, widely considered easy to use, use WIDELY varying looks and colors for their buttons, links, etc, but as behavior is the same users do just fine.
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post

Wow that Resume feature is amazing. I believe Microsoft had that way back when Vista came out.

Only it didn't.

Now, what you were saying again?
post #106 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

I agree. I have one program that still needs Rosetta - Quicken.

Quicken doesn't need Rosetta for a lot of time now.

Or you mean you have an old version you haven't updated?
post #107 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by foljs View Post

Only it didn't.

Now, what you were saying again?

Win 7 definately does.
post #108 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by foljs View Post

...
UI consistency has nothing to do with styles --it is about BEHAVIOR.

....

Um, and how exactly does making the screen suddenly charcoal change it's BEHAVIOR?
post #109 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post

Win 7 definately does.

Are you sure? I've used Windows quite extensively and to my knowledge, neither Vista nor 7 have a function that restores your programs to exactly where you left them after logging out or a reboot. Some programs do have session restore (usually web browsers) and others have auto saving, but unless I'm missing something, I don't think Windows has a function similar to Resume.
post #110 of 110
Now that Mac OS X Lion will be in one version (you can 'switch on' server mode) I wonder:
- Is server mode of Lion as complete as the current OS X Server?
- If server mode is turned on, are end user uses restricted (as is the case with current OS X Server, you cannot install iLife for instance)
- Current OS X Server can be run in virtualized environments. How is this with OS X Server Lion?
- And if OS X Lion in Server mode cannot be run in virtualized environments and there is no XServe hardware, what will Apple use for their own server environments? What are they using now anyway?
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