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Intel details Thunderbolt, says Apple has full year head start - Page 2

post #41 of 132
2/24/11 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

I do this to plan for just that event if I want to upgrade the wiring without having to bust walls out. Currently, I installed CAT6 in everything. However, I would be more than happy to simply pull the "old" CAT6 out and replace it with Thunderbolt cabling!

Why replace, just add the TB cable? You need to keep the Cat6 for Windows or Linux machines.

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post #42 of 132
2/24/11 at 2:30pm
Will I be able to plug in a hub? If displays can only be last in the chain, it would be awkward trying to connect something in between that does not need to be connected all the time. If there was a hub you could plug the screen in one port, and other devices in another.
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post #43 of 132
2/24/11 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crawdad62 View Post

Far superior to USB1/2. Given a choice in I/O I always go with IEEE1394.

Me too, Firewire is far better than USB 2.

Specs sometimes lie. Even though USB 2.0 is supposed to be rated at 480 and the original Firewire is rated at a lower 400, the Firewire beats the USB 2.0 in real life usage, such as when using external drives. Firewire (400) has better sustained throughput and is faster than USB 2.0.
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post #44 of 132
2/24/11 at 2:44pm
Australian bushranger (outlaw) Captain Thunderbolt

I was thinking of updating my MacBook.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #45 of 132
2/24/11 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

Amazing that some posters think this is bad news for Apple! Oh, that's right; we get lots of PC fanatics that post here....

\

Indeed, that's the only explanation. To anyone who actually has their head on straight, it's clear that this is a big, big win for Apple. Between this and the upcoming new Final Cut, it's clear they are targeting their core video graphics market. (Which is a statement no one's made about Apple in a while, so it's nice to see them revisit their roots.) They'll be the only vendor offering this kind of throughput for a whole year.

As far as "USB catching up", as one clown suggested, take a look at Apple's comparison speed graph. USB isn't even CLOSE, and won't be any time soon. (Certainly not for the next year!)

And re questions about "where's the fiber", that technology is simply not yet ready, but it is in the pipeline.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

According to the CNET article, it's not that Apple has an exclusive. Intel just thinks that PC manufacturers will probably wait until their next design cycles to implement.

Right, Intel's not doing this out of the goodness of their little corporate hearts. They figure Apple would be first to adopt the new technology anyway, and thus create a demand. (And Apple's video editor users are the ones who need this stuff the most.) The PC industry will eventually copy Apple, as TB becomes 'standard' equipment, like USB, and PC buyers expect it.

It's also remotely possible that Intel couldn't roll out the chipsets acorss the entire PC industry all at once anyway. (Though I don't know this for a fact.)
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post #46 of 132
2/24/11 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Me too, Firewire is far better than USB 2.

Specs sometimes lie. Even though USB 2.0 is supposed to be rated at 480 and the original Firewire is rated at a lower 400, the Firewire beats the USB 2.0 in real life usage, such as when using external drives. Firewire (400) has better sustained throughput and is faster than USB 2.0.

Indeed. USB 2 is burst (whatever that means. I've never had anywhere near it with USB) to 480Mbps. FireWire 400 is sustained 400Mbps, with 800 following suit.

Across computers with the same USB-SD adapter and SDHC card, I've had anywhere from 4Kbps to 4Mbps. It just depends on which computer.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #47 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:20pm
I'm getting worried that Apple may not release a PCI Express card for Mac Pros to add this to their current lineup.

But if they do then I'm sure they will come out with Boot Camp drivers which would possibly allow the device to be used on Windows computers.

Guess I will cross my fingers and pray to Steve that they release a Mac Pro card.
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post #48 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marokero View Post

I didn't see any other companies join Intel in developing this technology. Apple has every right to first dibs on Thunderbolt.

And device makers have every right to say no thank you to thunderbolt until it isn't exclusive or to sell them at a much higher price tag. Limiting this to Apple hurts its chances at adoption.
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post #49 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

And device makers have every right to say no thank you to thunderbolt until it isn't exclusive or to sell them at a much higher price tag. Limiting this to Apple hurts its chances at adoption.

You forgot to add IYHO....
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post #50 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

That is very very *BAD*

I was going wow the minidisplay port is going to get popular, then boom, exclusivity until 2012. WTF they want to make sure it doesnt work or what?

Apple "control-freak" attitude is going to kill the company some day.

If the first developer kits go out in the spring (say April first, heh), companies working on systems using it should be shipping about nine months later, which would be the first of 2012.

Peripherals are already showing up, but they're a *lot* easier to develop.

I seriously doubt that this is going to have much effect at all on total uptake in the industry.
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post #51 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Fiber's 100Gbps and no power.
Copper's 10Gbps and power.

They'll both have their uses.

Intel's been looking into implementing the fiber version with a coaxial power conductor, although it appears to have been a late starter for some reason.
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post #52 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:32pm
Got a Lacie USB 3.0 PCIe card for my Mac Pro, will only work with Lacie stuff. USB 3.0 on the Mac not so good. Thunderbolt is supported by Apple & will work with any manufacturers stuff.
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post #53 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

And device makers have every right to say no thank you to thunderbolt until it isn't exclusive or to sell them at a much higher price tag. Limiting this to Apple hurts its chances at adoption.

That's fine by me. With LaCie and WD already onboard, Caldigit and G-Technology probably aren't far behind. Why didn't others invest in Thunderbolt? Apple did, so Apple gets it first, others can take a number and have a seat until next spring.
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post #54 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

And device makers have every right to say no thank you to thunderbolt until it isn't exclusive or to sell them at a much higher price tag. Limiting this to Apple hurts its chances at adoption.

This is not limited to apple. Apple has a HEAD start because it helped develop the tech but its not limited to apple. I am thinking Intel Just now released the tech out into the wild today.

That is why apple will have it a year before everybody else because other companies can just get it starting today so it will probably take a year for other companies to get it into products.

question is it possible for say ati to use thunderbolt as the outputs on a video card? replace the dvi and displayports with the minidisplayport thunderbolt connectors and have the thunderbolt processor onboard the graphicscard? This way combining thunderbolt with a gpu so that you can have full thunderbolt speed if you have one pcie x16 slot?
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post #55 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Agreed. Windows, Linux, FreeBSD and the rest will actually have to add the code to utilize it, whereas Apple has it out-of-the-box, today.

Awesome! Now what can I plug it into, today?

Sometimes Steve skates a little too far ahead of the puck.
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post #56 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Why replace, just add the TB cable? You need to keep the Cat6 for Windows or Linux machines.

Yes, I'm sure you want thuderbolt with it's wonderful 10s of meter's length vs. the current 100 meters limit of ethernet, on copper.

Underwhelmed. The home PC is dead. No one even needs USB3.0 either. The current trend is smaller and non expandable computers.

Oh, it's for professionals? How many of them are there?
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post #57 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

25% of the consumer computer market (the "top" expensive 25%), is not "a tiny percentile of computer users."

???

Last time I have checked, Apple had around 10% in US and less than 5% world wide..? 5% of market as a base for pushing new technology is not really that much... \
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post #58 of 132
2/24/11 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

Yes, I'm sure you want thuderbolt with it's wonderful 10s of meter's length vs. the current 100 meters limit of ethernet, on copper.

Underwhelmed. The home PC is dead. No one even needs USB3.0 either. The current trend is smaller and non expandable computers.

Oh, it's for professionals? How many of them are there?

This allows one port for EVERYTHING. Devices connected to it look to the pc as if they are connected to pcie or as a display port. You can plug in a usb device to it with the right cord even an ethernet adapter.

This is the exact kind of things laptops and netbooks needed.
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post #59 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crawdad62 View Post

Not sure why "Apple fanatics" shouldn't be mourning Firewire's demise. Far superior to USB1/2. Given a choice in I/O I always go with IEEE1394.

And it failed because it didn't manage to spread through the rest of the market - non-Apple part.

I don't know if and how much better this Thunderbolt is compared to USB3... but it is missing one thing USB has, and that is backward compatibility with USB2. Moving to USB3 is no brainer for manufacturers - everything will work.
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post #60 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I didn't know that any professionals used windows.

In my business (pro audio), I hardly know anybody who doesn't use Macs.

You don't know many professionals, eh?
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post #61 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

You forgot to add IYHO....

I haven't seen anyone adding that, but I always take it as given.
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post #62 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:06pm
This is so dumb. It slows down the peripheral manufacturers who will have fewer customers to sell to at first, and gets too many people locked into USB 3. Hopefully Apple will at least partially make amends by using the connector on the iPhone and iPad. That will create some more customers.
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post #63 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:09pm
Hmm this is going to be interesting. So far I've been seeing USB 3.0 peripherals like external HD starting to trickle in computer hardware stores. I wonder who long will it take till TB to get adopted by peripheral manufactures. This is going to be quite a race.
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post #64 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

A full YEAR??? Holy shit. They've essentially killed the technology. Congrats.

Noone gives a shit if its exclusive if there are no, or hardly any compatible peripherals. It needs to be adopted NOW- in a year, USB 3.0 will probably have a massive headstart over this, as its incorporated into most windows machines. How utterly idiotic. Intel could have secured this as the future standard by incorporating it on all/most of its chipsets. Who's gonna incorporate compatibility for this in their peripherals when theres such a tiny percentile of potential users?

I suspect that the confusion is simply another case of AI bungling the facts.

The statement is "PC makers are expected to begin adding Thunderbolt to their machines next spring"

Hmmm... it's still winter here, so next spring is only a month away. None of the other sites say that it will be a year before anyone else has it.
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post #65 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

As has been reported previously (in a lot of tech sites) fiber optic use (for the time being) is not cost effective .... thus the initial roll out being copper ..... not that you won't find something wrong with this strategy. ....

Me? I love everything. Why would you assume there was a complaint embedded in that comment?

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post #66 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

A full YEAR??? Holy shit. They've essentially killed the technology. Congrats.

Noone gives a shit if its exclusive if there are no, or hardly any compatible peripherals. It needs to be adopted NOW- in a year, USB 3.0 will probably have a massive headstart over this, as its incorporated into most windows machines. How utterly idiotic. Intel could have secured this as the future standard by incorporating it on all/most of its chipsets. Who's gonna incorporate compatibility for this in their peripherals when theres such a tiny percentile of potential users?

I think they'll start adding Thunderbolt to all of their products, which would ensure wide adoption. Think about it. iPhone 4, next iPods, all computers going forward, iPads. Come on!

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post #67 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

???

Last time I have checked, Apple had around 10% in US and less than 5% world wide..? 5% of market as a base for pushing new technology is not really that much... \

Then you haven't been checking much of late. Apple's world wide is approaching 10% for their Mac install base, and much larger obviously when we include the iOS platform.
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post #68 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:44pm
so how is this first copper incarnation of the tech going to be compatible with the newer optical one about to come?
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post #69 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

so how is this first copper incarnation of the tech going to be compatible with the newer optical one about to come?

The part that converts the optical to copper will be in the cable itself
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post #70 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

The part that converts the optical to copper will be in the cable itself

so you would have to ask specifically for optical to copper cables, could be a bit confusing when you have a few say...but it makes sense.
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post #71 of 132
2/24/11 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sippincider View Post

Awesome! Now what can I plug it into, today?

Sometimes Steve skates a little too far ahead of the puck.

Only slightly ahead of the puck. See you next Wednesday.
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post #72 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I hope they can get this working with a tablet/desktop combo.

I think that, at the Mar 2 iPad 2 event, we'll see the iPad being demoed:

-- with an iPad app as a visual control surface for an app running on a Mac
-- with an iPad app as a graphics tablet input device for an app running on a Mac
-- dragging and dropping content between between the iPad and a Mac (both ways)
-- as an external display for an app running on the Mac (the iPad is a peripheral display)
-- as a source of information displayed on the Mac (the Mac is the peripheral)

I suspect that:

-- every Mac and iDevice will include Thunderbolt support in the next upgrade.
-- the next release Pro apps will include support for the iPad as above.
-- iLife and iWork will have full iPod/Mac implementations
-- and iLife and iWork can act as stand-alones or as described above.


The dividing line between desktop and mobile blurs -- depending on how the devices are used.

Atrix, had the right idea -- they just didn't think it through properly (who wants a "Scarecrow/Tin Man" computer?}
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post #73 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:14pm
The beauty of LightPeak is that it has Millions of PCs to make it cheap! And where Intel can make its mark is in Fiber optics national grids where boosters are needed every 20 odd miles or so. But have low volume productions (expensive -$15000 in early days)

If Intel can modify LightPeak for telcos everyone would be happy!
1Telcos cheaper instillation costs
2 Nation(s) cheaper services
3 you higher bandwidths cheaper fees
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post #74 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think that, at the Mar 2 iPad 2 event, we'll see the iPad being demoed:

-- with an iPad app as a visual control surface for an app running on a Mac
-- with an iPad app as a graphics tablet input device for an app running on a Mac
-- dragging and dropping content between between the iPad and a Mac (both ways)
-- as an external display for an app running on the Mac (the iPad is a peripheral display)
-- as a source of information displayed on the Mac (the Mac is the peripheral)

I suspect that:

-- every Mac and iDevice will include Thunderbolt support in the next upgrade.
-- the next release Pro apps will include support for the iPad as above.
-- iLife and iWork will have full iPod/Mac implementations
-- and iLife and iWork can act as stand-alones or as described above.

Awesome bit of guesswork. I'm in agreement with all of this, especially the iPad control surface integration idea and Thunderbolt on everything.

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post #75 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:31pm
Two channels of powered, 10Gbps duplex.... DOCK!

I am excited, to say the least. The PCI-Express channel should have no problem supplying ethernet/USB/whatever, and the display channel will of course drive a display. Very nice. I can't wait for the docks to start coming out.
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post #76 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:34pm
Hello? All the major PC manufactures plus many third party device makers already voiced their support. The year isn't a restriction of contract, but a necessity for PC manufacturers to incorporate the new technology. Apple has a head start because it helped develop the technology. Further, like USB, Apple is willing to put a new port on a computer without a developed market yet because Apple is a forward thinker.

What I want to know, does Thunderbolt have the same ability as Firewire to boot a computer from another computer or a third party hard drive (e.g. target disk mode). USB really is a not as practical as Firewire for power users.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

A full YEAR??? Holy shit. They've essentially killed the technology. Congrats.

Noone gives a shit if its exclusive if there are no, or hardly any compatible peripherals. It needs to be adopted NOW- in a year, USB 3.0 will probably have a massive headstart over this, as its incorporated into most windows machines. How utterly idiotic. Intel could have secured this as the future standard by incorporating it on all/most of its chipsets. Who's gonna incorporate compatibility for this in their peripherals when theres such a tiny percentile of potential users?
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post #77 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sippincider View Post

Awesome! Now what can I plug it into, today?

Sometimes Steve skates a little too far ahead of the puck.

How about an iPad in a few weeks?
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #78 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:41pm
Sounds like this will make a great OWC Mini Stack v4! ;-)

Hopefully OWC will add USB 3.0 to it too... FireWire 1600 may never come to life, though...
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post #79 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Two channels of powered, 10Gbps duplex.... DOCK!

I am excited, to say the least. The PCI-Express channel should have no problem supplying ethernet/USB/whatever, and the display channel will of course drive a display. Very nice. I can't wait for the docks to start coming out.

People should be very excited as this tech is certainly not a replacement for USB. I'm not sure many in this thread recognize the incredible gulf between the two standards. TB is clearly a solution for things USB could never do.

As to the other posters I see big confusion with respect to the terms used here. Head start does not imply exclusive.

As to implementation this really has me curious. It appears that TB requires a different support chip. I suspect that this might be why Apple has not been held up by the SATA bug. TB most likely has direct access to the DMI bus or whatever it is called on Sandy Bridge. I need to dig up an architecture diagram ASAP. TB could go very far in other industries like instrumentation.
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post #80 of 132
2/24/11 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

25% of the consumer computer market (the "top" expensive 25%), is not "a tiny percentile of computer users."

25% of all consumer computers sold worldwide are new generation apple ?

Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x2, iPod touch 16gb gen 2, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod...

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Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x2, iPod touch 16gb gen 2, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod...

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