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Inside Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: New Dock, Finder & Desktop - Page 4

post #121 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

That couldn't possibly be less relevant to reality, but whatever. No one cares.

Thanks for your polite response.
post #122 of 143
The videos suddenly disappear or doesn't show up at all
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post #123 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

I thought the whole point of the dashboard was to be able to call up tiny apps while still seeing the desktop...

Things like using the calculator widget to add up some figures in an email, the conversion widget to figure out how much something costs on Ebay international or measurements in a non-metric recipe, the translation widget to translate a phrase or the sticky note widget to jot down something you see on a website all lose some usability if you can't call them up without the the desktop being pushed out of the way.... I hope they at least keep the option of retaining the Tiger/Snow Leopard dashboard! This seems like a very counter-intuitive move by Apple.

+1

The calculator, in particular, is something that's used while referencing other on-screen documents.

Let's hope (and lobby Apple) to not do something silly like this. The developer previews are not the final product, fortunately, and Apple does pay attention to developer (and consumer) reactions.
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post #124 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by initiator View Post

No, my friend, you absolutely are NOT the only one that thinks this way, despite what others say. I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion. I find this whole dumbing down shocking. Why on earth would we want to hide/eliminate common UI elements (e.g. scroll bars, disclosure triangles, COLOR, etc) that people have been used to for YEARS? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. This is not Windows. The current Mac OS X UI is not bloated and complicated to use.

Since when is Lion hiding everything? Scrollbars, sure, because it's easy to discover if a page is scrollable with a simple gesture. And the removal of colour is only a bad thing if color was used properly in the first place. Do you know enough about UI design to be able to comment if color was used properly? FYI, in the side bars shape was far quicker to recognize than color, although I can't say the colour looked bad, I'm not convinced it added much to recognizing the shapes.
Quote:
This dumbing down reminds me of Microsoft's genius UI move of late, namely to get rid of menus and replace them with "ribbons". I can't tell you how many people have asked me, "where is the menu"?. Oh, I'm sorry, Microsoft decided that was too complicated for you to understand, so they hid them. Now you have to hunt around and figure out where that common command used to be. How else can we "improve" the user experience for you? Geez.

Except that Apple didn't remove the menus. The only commonality with Microsoft is that the UI is changing. That's pretty ambiguous.

What you and the other guy don't seem to be getting is that the existing UI is good for some users, but not for all users. The new UI Apple is adding makes the Mac accessible by *more* people, not less. And it doesn't get in the way of existing users who already know the UI.

This is why so many people are disagreeing. The snobbish notion that everyone "should" learn one way of computing instead of improving the UI to accommodate more than one way of computing.
post #125 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by initiator View Post

And yet supposedly these people, who can't even find something in the menu bar, are going to suddenly discover all the new dumbed down features like full screen view, scroll bars that aren't there, etc.? Give me a break. If they have no time or desire to learn some basics of how to use the computer they have chosen now, what makes you think they will be so different when the new Mac OS X comes out?

You seem to have an assumption that learning one way of computer is just as inviting or as easy as another. That's just ridiculous.

Apple's new UI is controlled by gestures - something that comes more natural to people than positioning a mouse on an on-screen control and clicking. This is why people took to iPhones and iPads so easily - they could use it in a natural way. I've seen people who've never touched a computer learn to use an iPhone app in under a few minutes - it's because of the gestures. Before the iPhone, these people didn't use smart phones. The smart phones of the day required either you to press arrow keys to get around, or a stylus to tap controls instead of actually scroll a document. Can you believe that? Tapping on scroll bars on a handheld touchscreen device with a pen, instead of just swiping with your hand. It's ridiculously antiquated way of doing things when direct manipulation is possible.

Apple didn't just pull gestures and full screen modes out of thin air. Unlike us geeks posting on forums, Apple does actually research these things.
post #126 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

I thought the whole point of the dashboard was to be able to call up tiny apps while still seeing the desktop...

No, the whole point of dashboard was to be able to quickly call up tiny apps and get rid of them just as quickly. The transparent desktop was just eye candy and to give you a sense of reference. Animations are now giving the sense of reference. Notice the desktop and windows were dimmed when the dashboard appeared. If Apple meant for you to read things on the desktop and in app windows, they wouldn't dim them.
post #127 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

No, the whole point of dashboard was to be able to quickly call up tiny apps and get rid of them just as quickly. The transparent desktop was just eye candy and to give you a sense of reference. Animations are now giving the sense of reference. Notice the desktop and windows were dimmed when the dashboard appeared. If Apple meant for you to read things on the desktop and in app windows, they wouldn't dim them.

What a silly response. Did you even read his examples? Many (though certainly not all) uses of dashboard widgets are completely dependent on seeing data in the window(s) you are currently working in.
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post #128 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

You seem to have an assumption that learning one way of computer is just as inviting or as easy as another. That's just ridiculous.

Apple's new UI is controlled by gestures - something that comes more natural to people than positioning a mouse on an on-screen control and clicking. This is why people took to iPhones and iPads so easily - they could use it in a natural way. I've seen people who've never touched a computer learn to use an iPhone app in under a few minutes - it's because of the gestures. Before the iPhone, these people didn't use smart phones. The smart phones of the day required either you to press arrow keys to get around, or a stylus to tap controls instead of actually scroll a document. Can you believe that? Tapping on scroll bars on a handheld touchscreen device with a pen, instead of just swiping with your hand. It's ridiculously antiquated way of doing things when direct manipulation is possible.

Apple didn't just pull gestures and full screen modes out of thin air. Unlike us geeks posting on forums, Apple does actually research these things.

I agree with your point regarding gestures. But, you seem to have the assumption that everyone will be using either a tablet or a trackpad. However, the mouse is not disappearing yet. Something that seems to be overlooked. Many, many people, (myself included), don't have a MacBook, MacBook Pro, or a touchpad. Gestures are not designed for a mouse.

Thank you for confirming that Apple actually does research on these things. I just assumed they pulled it out of their a**.
post #129 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

What you and the other guy don't seem to be getting is that the existing UI is good for some users, but not for all users. The new UI Apple is adding makes the Mac accessible by *more* people, not less. And it doesn't get in the way of existing users who already know the UI.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. You seem to miss my point. If a user can't figure out a UI, changing it doesn't necessarily make it easier for them to figure out. Logically, that just doesn't make sense. You don't suddenly have everyone experiencing a voila moment where they just "get" how to use this new UI. Yes, most people can figure out how to use an iOS device. But, you also have people that use only the most basic features and can't figure out anything else.

You can keep saying gestures and dumbing down make things easier for more people, but unless everyone is suddenly getting a new tablet Macintosh (where all interaction is touch/gesture based) to replace whatever they currently own, I just don't buy it.
post #130 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

If Apple meant for you to read things on the desktop and in app windows, they wouldn't dim them.

Do you work for Apple? I ask because you seem to make comments as if you know exactly why Apple does anything.
post #131 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by petruzzo View Post

I have to admit. Lion does seem to be growing on me. Apple has never really let me down in the innovation department. Well, except that tiny iPod Nano. That was dumb. But in terms of software intuition, this looks pretty promising. Like they're getting ready to take their next big leap ahead of Windows.

Of course, that kind of sucks for Windows users, cause you know Dell is going to be bundling third party software to mimic Macs and it's just going to slow things down even more.

But, I'm still a bit anxious. I'm definitely a power user, and I find very little useful about gestures as I need more precision and comfortable longevity than a trackpad seems to provide me. I'm also a die hard fan of spaces and it's worked its way into my muscle memory now. Hopefully, if I don't like the changes, there might be a way to switch to the classic mode or something.

Also, to add to the discussion of Mr. DOS' comment, it's really difficult as a computer savvy person to understand how someone less savvy doesn't get it. But, I know plenty of people who simply don't use the beef of Apple's workflow innovations because they just don't spend enough time on the computer to really get used to it all. And, if you're used to Windows XP or something earlier, you've grown quite accustomed to never, ever searching your computer for something because it will literally take hours and no one needs a picture of their poodle that badly. So, I'm betting when people get to Mac, search functionality isn't even on their radar.

All this stuff looks like it's going to be a pretty big improvement.

But I have to wonder, if they're only at 10.7, and they're dubbing this version 'Lion', does that mean it's technically the end of the OS X line? I mean, in the chain of big cats, I don't think you can get much higher than Lions.

They could do some prehistoric cats... but then, it probably would not sound overly progressive.

But then, for majority of Windows 7 users OSX is way behind anyway, so OSX 10.8 Smilodon or Homotherium... maybe Xenosmilus?.. would be perfectly acceptable

OSX Cave Lion?
post #132 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by initiator View Post

No, my friend, you absolutely are NOT the only one that thinks this way, despite what others say. I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion. I find this whole dumbing down shocking. Why on earth would we want to hide/eliminate common UI elements (e.g. scroll bars, disclosure triangles, COLOR, etc) that people have been used to for YEARS? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. This is not Windows. The current Mac OS X UI is not bloated and complicated to use.

This dumbing down reminds me of Microsoft's genius UI move of late, namely to get rid of menus and replace them with "ribbons". I can't tell you how many people have asked me, "where is the menu"?. Oh, I'm sorry, Microsoft decided that was too complicated for you to understand, so they hid them. Now you have to hunt around and figure out where that common command used to be. How else can we "improve" the user experience for you? Geez.

The latter one is a nonsensical argument because it means you should not ever change anything and therefore never improve. You can argue if the ribbon concept is better or worse Than the menus system (I strongly believe it's a lot bett although I have LIVED on the menu for 15 years), but you can't argue that it's different and people don't find what they used to find somewhere else. That means for sake of regard to the old ignore and punish the young. You don't either request OS X to work the same way as Windows just so people find everything at the same place when the switch.
post #133 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by initiator View Post

I agree with your point regarding gestures. But, you seem to have the assumption that everyone will be using either a tablet or a trackpad. However, the mouse is not disappearing yet. Something that seems to be overlooked. Many, many people, (myself included), don't have a MacBook, MacBook Pro, or a touchpad. Gestures are not designed for a mouse.

Thank you for confirming that Apple actually does research on these things. I just assumed they pulled it out of their a**.

That's why Apple built Magic Mouse. Have you seen Magic Mouse? It's possibly the greatest mouse I've ever used. You get a (ridiculously, implausibly ergonomic) traditional mouse and a gesture-enabled touch surface, all in one neat little package.

Yes, I've seriously got a nerd-crush on the Magic Mouse, it's awesome.

Ahem, anyway, more generally in reply to the topic, the more I see of the changes Apple is making in Lion, the more my eyes bug out in desire. I keep seeing new innovations - even tiny ones - that I never would have thought of but which immediately blow my mind with how much of an improvement they are. And that's on top of things I've seen which I've actively wanted - such as:
  • Universal Application Launcher (Launchpad! iOS's Springboard's Precocious little brother)
  • Pervasive Fullscreen Support with Dock and Menu Bar Access
  • Expansion of Quick-Look to System-wide Previews System
  • iOS-Style Auto-Correct
  • Saved State Applications
  • Auto-Save
  • Pervasive, System-Wide Notifications (Push Notification for OS X!)
  • Fade-In/Fade-Out Scrollbars (Scrollbars have always been a pet peeve of mine. I find them visually distracting and it frustrates me how they take up screen real estate - particularly horizontal scroll bars, which I frequently resize windows just to get rid of

And I think there's some more. Like system-level versioning - if it's what I understand it to be, it's awesome. It's like Apple reached into my head and created the OS X I'd always dreamed of.

Seriously, Lion is, to me, OS X so perfectly refined, I'd be amazed if there's a meaningful 10.8. It feels like OS X is now so advanced and mature, it's next significant revision will be System 11

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post #134 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Am I the only one who finds Mission Control a bit unintuitive. Sure, it's for power users, but Apple usually makes even powerful stuff simple. You'd know it's beta.

What? What part of it is unintuitive? Big central screen is what you are using, small screens are alternate desktops/dashboard/fullscreen apps. It's way more intuitive than separating Exposé and Spaces. Now I may actually use separate desktops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I thought most of what was shown in those videos looked terrible.

- The dashboard background idea. This means having to click another app to come out of it.

Not? Have you ever considered that clicking on Dashboard again on the Dock will bring you back to the desktop you came from?

Quote:
- Mission Control doesn't look that great with the little windows and big one at the bottom. The current Exposé is much better IMO.

Why? the little ones are different desktops and fullscreen apps, the big one is your current. inside the big window everything is exactly like the current Exposé

Quote:
- the menu system overlapping the title bar of a full-screen app and moving the spotlight icon in fullscreen mode. Have they got a Windows UI designer working on this now?

The hide-able Dock already overlaps anything near it. And this behavior is *exactly* like Pages' fullscreen view. How would they be fullscreen apps if you had a semi-transparent Menu Bar on top? Besides, this only happens when the edge of the cursor hits the top pixel line. It's not going to screw you every time you try to hit a button on the top of the screen.

Quote:
- icons reshuffling based on context, why would you need that? It's distracting as you move things and you are going to think that you've let go the mouse or something by accident.

You are really starting to make sh*# up.

Quote:
This is not what I imagined this system to be like at all. I guess I'd get used to it but so far I don't like it much beyond the scrollbars.

And I think this OS X is going to be many times better than Leopard or Snow Leopard. The UI changes are more useful than the ones made in Leopard, as is the performance one (OGL 3.2) more significant for the system than GCD for now.

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post #135 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensonb View Post

That's why Apple built Magic Mouse. Have you seen Magic Mouse? It's possibly the greatest mouse I've ever used. You get a (ridiculously, implausibly ergonomic) traditional mouse and a gesture-enabled touch surface, all in one neat little package.

Yes, I've seriously got a nerd-crush on the Magic Mouse, it's awesome.

Ahem, anyway, more generally in reply to the topic, the more I see of the changes Apple is making in Lion, the more my eyes bug out in desire. I keep seeing new innovations - even tiny ones - that I never would have thought of but which immediately blow my mind with how much of an improvement they are. And that's on top of things I've seen which I've actively wanted - such as:
  • Universal Application Launcher (Launchpad! iOS's Springboard's Precocious little brother)
  • Pervasive Fullscreen Support with Dock and Menu Bar Access
  • Expansion of Quick-Look to System-wide Previews System
  • iOS-Style Auto-Correct
  • Saved State Applications
  • Auto-Save
  • Pervasive, System-Wide Notifications (Push Notification for OS X!)
  • Fade-In/Fade-Out Scrollbars (Scrollbars have always been a pet peeve of mine. I find them visually distracting and it frustrates me how they take up screen real estate - particularly horizontal scroll bars, which I frequently resize windows just to get rid of

And I think there's some more. Like system-level versioning - if it's what I understand it to be, it's awesome. It's like Apple reached into my head and created the OS X I'd always dreamed of.

Seriously, Lion is, to me, OS X so perfectly refined, I'd be amazed if there's a meaningful 10.8. It feels like OS X is now so advanced and mature, it's next significant revision will be System 11

This. Like a kajillion times.

Considering how some people were hatin' on the Magic Mouse and its supposed ergonomic issues, when I first tried it out in a store (in a completely non-ergonomical position) I was "That's it? Having to adapt to a mouse with lower height is an ergonomic disaster??

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post #136 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermonke View Post

So i take it, Lion Is yet again just another service pack like snow leopard, Just hope it costs the same?

Service Pack? Since when are things like Versions, Auto-saving, Resume, Mission Control and OpenGL 3.2 are bug fixes? That's more useful things than Microsoft brought to Vista from Windows XP (Spotlight rip-off and DirectX10)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermonke View Post

Well, seeing as nobody answered my first post and enlightened me as to what groundbreaking new features this has over previous version's, I take it it's just whats being discussed here IE:UI tweaks, which is all they are, and timemachine being used for tracking changes to documents.

Can you ban him now? Pretty please

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

You really believe that? This is Apple...the company that charges for iPod Touch OS updates, wifi upgrades, and facetime software ... all of which should come with OSX/iOS.

Except that they only do the latter nowadays... And $1 is not unreasonable like $10 for iOS 2.0 were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermonke View Post

Hi thanks for that breakdown, 2-5 scream service pack 3, the server tools could of been a free or' $5 for yer time for appleising opensource seperate piece of software' for those that want em.

I know OS X is ahead of the game, But really come on this is nothing to get excited about, Unless there's something that hasnt been revealed yet.

Seriously? You do know Service Packs are basically massive bug fixes right?

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post #137 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

Not? Have you ever considered that clicking on Dashboard again on the Dock will bring you back to the desktop you came from?

Maybe but I'd have expected it to be shown in the demo if it was and that behaviour wouldn't be too intuitive. The transparent backdrop also means that you don't break your concentration when you quickly look at a widget. If you use a calculator or calendar widget for example, sometimes you are referencing something on-screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

The hide-able Dock already overlaps anything near it. And this behavior is *exactly* like Pages' fullscreen view. How would they be fullscreen apps if you had a semi-transparent Menu Bar on top? Besides, this only happens when the edge of the cursor hits the top pixel line. It's not going to screw you every time you try to hit a button on the top of the screen.

The problem is that the menu is a highly used part of an app. The Dock is different as it has a large hit-area when visible. It'll probably be ok in everyday use as they have sticky menus now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

You are really starting to make sh*# up.

I just don't want my icons moving around when I move a bunch of files. If anything, they could collapse the group into a single icon with a number tag and just keep it out of the way so I can see where I put the group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

And I think this OS X is going to be many times better than Leopard or Snow Leopard. The UI changes are more useful than the ones made in Leopard, as is the performance one (OGL 3.2) more significant for the system than GCD for now.

Some changes are good, other changes I'll wait and see. Some changes in SL that were similar still irritate me on a daily basis but the benefits outweigh them and I'd expect Lion to be the same.
post #138 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermonke View Post

So i take it, Lion Is yet again just another service pack like snow leopard, Just hope it costs the same?

-1 for Ignorance.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #139 of 143
Wake me when they bring back the Chooser, Sherlock, and At Ease!
post #140 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Maybe but I'd have expected it to be shown in the demo if it was and that behaviour wouldn't be too intuitive. The transparent backdrop also means that you don't break your concentration when you quickly look at a widget. If you use a calculator or calendar widget for example, sometimes you are referencing something on-screen.

I disagree that it is counter-intuitive (think of it as a toggle button), but agree that it would be better if they kept the transparency. Make it an option at least.

Quote:
The problem is that the menu is a highly used part of an app. The Dock is different as it has a large hit-area when visible. It'll probably be ok in everyday use as they have sticky menus now.

Oh. When you referenced Windows UI designers I thought you meant that the slide-down nature would screw things up.

Well, I suppose the most used menu commands can be shown as buttons on the full-screen version only. We know iPhoto's interface changes a bit when going full-screen.

Quote:
I just don't want my icons moving around when I move a bunch of files. If anything, they could collapse the group into a single icon with a number tag and just keep it out of the way so I can see where I put the group.

You mean just like the way it is now?

Quote:
Some changes are good, other changes I'll wait and see. Some changes in SL that were similar still irritate me on a daily basis but the benefits outweigh them and I'd expect Lion to be the same.

I heard some people complaining about some of Snow Leopard's changes, as they did with Tiger, but I think I never found anything irritating at all.

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post #141 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

I disagree that it is counter-intuitive (think of it as a toggle button), but agree that it would be better if they kept the transparency. Make it an option at least.

It seems like it is from a video posted online, thankfully Apple are learning to give users some choice. Dashboard can be set to stay transparent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

You mean just like the way it is now?

The icons don't reanimate while moving just now. To some extent they get in the way but at least you know that no change has taken place because whatever you are dragging stays static.
post #142 of 143
I really don't like the idea of having the scrollbar hidden by default. I use it all the time to see how low, or high, I am on a page/window/what ever. Its just stupid and I feel like they are trying to turn the computer into a giant iPad.

I use a mouse because its more responsive, feels better, and more natural to me. I use my computer more than to just checking email. Even my laptop I use a mouse with it, because using the trackpad is annoying to get things done. They make portable mouses for a reason, people want to uses mouses, even on their laptops.

Designing a computer OS as if it is a mobile OS is stupid. If i wanted a mobile OS I would use an iPad, not a 27 inch iMac.
post #143 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinss View Post

I really don't like the idea of having the scrollbar hidden by default. I use it all the time to see how low, or high, I am on a page/window/what ever. Its just stupid and I feel like they are trying to turn the computer into a giant iPad.

They made it an option to leave it as it is currently so it should be ok. I prefer hidden scrollbars mostly because they don't redraw content. If you resize the google homepage vertically, when the scrollbar appears, it offsets the content to the left - the iOS scrollbars shouldn't do that.
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