Inside Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: New Dock, Finder & Desktop - Page 4

Originally Posted by pmz

That couldn't possibly be less relevant to reality, but whatever. No one cares.

Originally Posted by Superbass

I thought the whole point of the dashboard was to be able to call up tiny apps while still seeing the desktop...

Things like using the calculator widget to add up some figures in an email, the conversion widget to figure out how much something costs on Ebay international or measurements in a non-metric recipe, the translation widget to translate a phrase or the sticky note widget to jot down something you see on a website all lose some usability if you can't call them up without the the desktop being pushed out of the way.... I hope they at least keep the option of retaining the Tiger/Snow Leopard dashboard! This seems like a very counter-intuitive move by Apple.

Originally Posted by initiator

No, my friend, you absolutely are NOT the only one that thinks this way, despite what others say. I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion. I find this whole dumbing down shocking. Why on earth would we want to hide/eliminate common UI elements (e.g. scroll bars, disclosure triangles, COLOR, etc) that people have been used to for YEARS? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. This is not Windows. The current Mac OS X UI is not bloated and complicated to use.

This dumbing down reminds me of Microsoft's genius UI move of late, namely to get rid of menus and replace them with "ribbons". I can't tell you how many people have asked me, "where is the menu"?. Oh, I'm sorry, Microsoft decided that was too complicated for you to understand, so they hid them. Now you have to hunt around and figure out where that common command used to be. How else can we "improve" the user experience for you? Geez.

Originally Posted by initiator

And yet supposedly these people, who can't even find something in the menu bar, are going to suddenly discover all the new dumbed down features like full screen view, scroll bars that aren't there, etc.? Give me a break. If they have no time or desire to learn some basics of how to use the computer they have chosen now, what makes you think they will be so different when the new Mac OS X comes out?

Originally Posted by Superbass

I thought the whole point of the dashboard was to be able to call up tiny apps while still seeing the desktop...

Originally Posted by Gustav

No, the whole point of dashboard was to be able to quickly call up tiny apps and get rid of them just as quickly. The transparent desktop was just eye candy and to give you a sense of reference. Animations are now giving the sense of reference. Notice the desktop and windows were dimmed when the dashboard appeared. If Apple meant for you to read things on the desktop and in app windows, they wouldn't dim them.

Originally Posted by Gustav

You seem to have an assumption that learning one way of computer is just as inviting or as easy as another. That's just ridiculous.

Apple's new UI is controlled by gestures - something that comes more natural to people than positioning a mouse on an on-screen control and clicking. This is why people took to iPhones and iPads so easily - they could use it in a natural way. I've seen people who've never touched a computer learn to use an iPhone app in under a few minutes - it's because of the gestures. Before the iPhone, these people didn't use smart phones. The smart phones of the day required either you to press arrow keys to get around, or a stylus to tap controls instead of actually scroll a document. Can you believe that? Tapping on scroll bars on a handheld touchscreen device with a pen, instead of just swiping with your hand. It's ridiculously antiquated way of doing things when direct manipulation is possible.

Apple didn't just pull gestures and full screen modes out of thin air. Unlike us geeks posting on forums, Apple does actually research these things.

Originally Posted by Gustav

What you and the other guy don't seem to be getting is that the existing UI is good for some users, but not for all users. The new UI Apple is adding makes the Mac accessible by *more* people, not less. And it doesn't get in the way of existing users who already know the UI.

Originally Posted by Gustav

If Apple meant for you to read things on the desktop and in app windows, they wouldn't dim them.

Originally Posted by petruzzo

I have to admit. Lion does seem to be growing on me. Apple has never really let me down in the innovation department. Well, except that tiny iPod Nano. That was dumb. But in terms of software intuition, this looks pretty promising. Like they're getting ready to take their next big leap ahead of Windows.

Of course, that kind of sucks for Windows users, cause you know Dell is going to be bundling third party software to mimic Macs and it's just going to slow things down even more.

But, I'm still a bit anxious. I'm definitely a power user, and I find very little useful about gestures as I need more precision and comfortable longevity than a trackpad seems to provide me. I'm also a die hard fan of spaces and it's worked its way into my muscle memory now. Hopefully, if I don't like the changes, there might be a way to switch to the classic mode or something.

Also, to add to the discussion of Mr. DOS' comment, it's really difficult as a computer savvy person to understand how someone less savvy doesn't get it. But, I know plenty of people who simply don't use the beef of Apple's workflow innovations because they just don't spend enough time on the computer to really get used to it all. And, if you're used to Windows XP or something earlier, you've grown quite accustomed to never, ever searching your computer for something because it will literally take hours and no one needs a picture of their poodle that badly. So, I'm betting when people get to Mac, search functionality isn't even on their radar.

All this stuff looks like it's going to be a pretty big improvement.

But I have to wonder, if they're only at 10.7, and they're dubbing this version 'Lion', does that mean it's technically the end of the OS X line? I mean, in the chain of big cats, I don't think you can get much higher than Lions.

Originally Posted by initiator

No, my friend, you absolutely are NOT the only one that thinks this way, despite what others say. I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion. I find this whole dumbing down shocking. Why on earth would we want to hide/eliminate common UI elements (e.g. scroll bars, disclosure triangles, COLOR, etc) that people have been used to for YEARS? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. This is not Windows. The current Mac OS X UI is not bloated and complicated to use.

This dumbing down reminds me of Microsoft's genius UI move of late, namely to get rid of menus and replace them with "ribbons". I can't tell you how many people have asked me, "where is the menu"?. Oh, I'm sorry, Microsoft decided that was too complicated for you to understand, so they hid them. Now you have to hunt around and figure out where that common command used to be. How else can we "improve" the user experience for you? Geez.

Originally Posted by initiator

I agree with your point regarding gestures. But, you seem to have the assumption that everyone will be using either a tablet or a trackpad. However, the mouse is not disappearing yet. Something that seems to be overlooked. Many, many people, (myself included), don't have a MacBook, MacBook Pro, or a touchpad. Gestures are not designed for a mouse.

Thank you for confirming that Apple actually does research on these things. I just assumed they pulled it out of their a**.

Originally Posted by Ireland

Am I the only one who finds Mission Control a bit unintuitive. Sure, it's for power users, but Apple usually makes even powerful stuff simple. You'd know it's beta.

Originally Posted by Marvin

I thought most of what was shown in those videos looked terrible.

- The dashboard background idea. This means having to click another app to come out of it.

- Mission Control doesn't look that great with the little windows and big one at the bottom. The current Exposé is much better IMO.

- the menu system overlapping the title bar of a full-screen app and moving the spotlight icon in fullscreen mode. Have they got a Windows UI designer working on this now?

- icons reshuffling based on context, why would you need that? It's distracting as you move things and you are going to think that you've let go the mouse or something by accident.

This is not what I imagined this system to be like at all. I guess I'd get used to it but so far I don't like it much beyond the scrollbars.

Originally Posted by Jensonb

That's why Apple built Magic Mouse. Have you seen Magic Mouse? It's possibly the greatest mouse I've ever used. You get a (ridiculously, implausibly ergonomic) traditional mouse and a gesture-enabled touch surface, all in one neat little package.

Yes, I've seriously got a nerd-crush on the Magic Mouse, it's awesome.

Ahem, anyway, more generally in reply to the topic, the more I see of the changes Apple is making in Lion, the more my eyes bug out in desire. I keep seeing new innovations - even tiny ones - that I never would have thought of but which immediately blow my mind with how much of an improvement they are. And that's on top of things I've seen which I've actively wanted - such as:

• Universal Application Launcher (Launchpad! iOS's Springboard's Precocious little brother)

• Pervasive Fullscreen Support with Dock and Menu Bar Access

• Expansion of Quick-Look to System-wide Previews System

• iOS-Style Auto-Correct

• Saved State Applications

• Auto-Save

• Pervasive, System-Wide Notifications (Push Notification for OS X!)

• Fade-In/Fade-Out Scrollbars (Scrollbars have always been a pet peeve of mine. I find them visually distracting and it frustrates me how they take up screen real estate - particularly horizontal scroll bars, which I frequently resize windows just to get rid of

And I think there's some more. Like system-level versioning - if it's what I understand it to be, it's awesome. It's like Apple reached into my head and created the OS X I'd always dreamed of.

Seriously, Lion is, to me, OS X so perfectly refined, I'd be amazed if there's a meaningful 10.8. It feels like OS X is now so advanced and mature, it's next significant revision will be System 11

Originally Posted by cybermonke

So i take it, Lion Is yet again just another service pack like snow leopard, Just hope it costs the same?

Originally Posted by cybermonke

Well, seeing as nobody answered my first post and enlightened me as to what groundbreaking new features this has over previous version's, I take it it's just whats being discussed here IE:UI tweaks, which is all they are, and timemachine being used for tracking changes to documents.

Originally Posted by lamewing

You really believe that? This is Apple...the company that charges for iPod Touch OS updates, wifi upgrades, and facetime software ... all of which should come with OSX/iOS.

Originally Posted by cybermonke

Hi thanks for that breakdown, 2-5 scream service pack 3, the server tools could of been a free or' $5 for yer time for appleising opensource seperate piece of software' for those that want em.

I know OS X is ahead of the game, But really come on this is nothing to get excited about, Unless there's something that hasnt been revealed yet.

Originally Posted by Lukeskymac

Not? Have you ever considered that clicking on Dashboard again on the Dock will bring you back to the desktop you came from?

Originally Posted by Lukeskymac

The hide-able Dock already overlaps anything near it. And this behavior is *exactly* like Pages' fullscreen view. How would they be fullscreen apps if you had a semi-transparent Menu Bar on top? Besides, this only happens when the edge of the cursor hits the top pixel line. It's not going to screw you every time you try to hit a button on the top of the screen.

Originally Posted by Lukeskymac

You are really starting to make sh*# up.

Originally Posted by Lukeskymac

And I think this OS X is going to be many times better than Leopard or Snow Leopard. The UI changes are more useful than the ones made in Leopard, as is the performance one (OGL 3.2) more significant for the system than GCD for now.

Originally Posted by cybermonke

So i take it, Lion Is yet again just another service pack like snow leopard, Just hope it costs the same?

Originally Posted by Marvin

Maybe but I'd have expected it to be shown in the demo if it was and that behaviour wouldn't be too intuitive. The transparent backdrop also means that you don't break your concentration when you quickly look at a widget. If you use a calculator or calendar widget for example, sometimes you are referencing something on-screen.

The problem is that the menu is a highly used part of an app. The Dock is different as it has a large hit-area when visible. It'll probably be ok in everyday use as they have sticky menus now.

I just don't want my icons moving around when I move a bunch of files. If anything, they could collapse the group into a single icon with a number tag and just keep it out of the way so I can see where I put the group.

Some changes are good, other changes I'll wait and see. Some changes in SL that were similar still irritate me on a daily basis but the benefits outweigh them and I'd expect Lion to be the same.

Originally Posted by Lukeskymac

I disagree that it is counter-intuitive (think of it as a toggle button), but agree that it would be better if they kept the transparency. Make it an option at least.

Originally Posted by Lukeskymac

You mean just like the way it is now?

Originally Posted by muffinss

I really don't like the idea of having the scrollbar hidden by default. I use it all the time to see how low, or high, I am on a page/window/what ever. Its just stupid and I feel like they are trying to turn the computer into a giant iPad.