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Mac OS X Lion drops Front Row, Java runtime, Rosetta - Page 5

post #161 of 268
They need to put ib00ks on OSX.
post #162 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoriale View Post

Aren't you the smart one! Humility isn't one of your strong points, is it? I currently have two high end Intel Mac Pro's that I use but my two 12" Powerbooks (1.5ghz, 1.25M, OS 10.5.8) are still very serviceable and meet all my needs when I use them on the road. While I have very few PPC apps (by the way, my MS Office is new - 2008), I can see no reason to toss anything that still is working. Apple has begun to work on the same planned short term obsolescence model that Microsoft is famous for and that is what I am reacting to. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

It's the concept of using PPC apps on a modern computer that's broken.

I thought people here were supposed to be technical in nature and so wouldn't think this was a big deal to fix? I'm surprised to know that that's wrong.

So, for the third time:

Buy an external HDD, install SL on it with all your PPC apps, and startup from there. 2.5" externals are small, and can run directly off the computer for people who are using laptops. If you need more speed, get an internal 3.5, unless your bays are filled, as mine are. So buy a 3.5" external. No big problem. Annoying, sometimes, but not major. Costs for these are pretty low these days.

Apple can't be expected to cater to the few people who aren't really interested in upgrading anyway. They have a business to run, and that means selling new products, and making money. This means that people should expect to be buying a new machine six years after something has been rendered obsolete, which PPC is.

For those of us with newer machines, it still isn't impossible to do this. It's not worth the expressions of distress I'm seeing here. A hundred bucks or less will fix the problem.
post #163 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by kube View Post

For me the big issue is loss of Canvas. While I think I can find a Canvas replacement, I have 20 years of Canvas files that cannot be read with other software. A lot of work went into those files and, as with draw programs, many components can be reused.

A few solutions:
1. someone writes a rosetta replacement.
2. dual boot
3. (dread) buy the windows version of Canvas and run under windows (but I'm doubtful it will open all old files).

Best Solution: A canvas replacement that can read old canvas files.

Print to a PDF file and save as a JPEG?
Summer '09 Macbook 6 GB RAM, SSD; iPhone 3GS, aTV v.2

Jesus told her, I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Anyone who lives in me and [trusts]...
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Summer '09 Macbook 6 GB RAM, SSD; iPhone 3GS, aTV v.2

Jesus told her, I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Anyone who lives in me and [trusts]...
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post #164 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

Give this a try:

http://scimonocesoftware.com/seefinance/

It's 10x better than Quicken Essentials.

At first glance it looks an awful lot like Quicken Essentials - still, I might give it a try - don't really have a choice when the time comes to move to 10.7.
post #165 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

VueScan will work with a FireWire to SCSI converter cable, and usually, it depends on the scanner more than VueScan, a USB to SCSI converter cable.

Maybe that changed since I started using VueScan - either that or it was some other category of devices (maybe a particular brand) that was unsupported.
post #166 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by macosxp View Post

Why is Apple doing this? All three are useful. At least I can still get Java. But as long as I need the Epson scanner and jGRASP (for school), I can't upgrade to Lion.

Current versions of jGRASP should be able to run without Rosetta, but you'll need to get the "zip" version of jGRASP, edit the bin/jgrasp script by replacing the "Darwin" in "$OS" = Darwin (the second occurrence of "Darwin" in the script) with something else, then run bin/jgrasp. This will run it in its UNIX/Linux mode. This is untested, but it should work.

We'll get it fixed up for full compatibility in the near future.
post #167 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Jeesh! This is simple. I've already responded to it.

Get another HDD, either external or internal, and put SL on that, and use it as a startup drive with all your old apps.

This isn't the end of the world guys! There are easy workarounds if you really can't let go of your babies.

Except often Apple ships hardware that you can't run older OSes on.

You mentioned several times that people like me aren't "customers" so why should Apple care. You've got it totally backwards. I am a customer. I upgrade my Apple hardware regularly. This decision actually prevents me from being a future customer, or at least makes it harder to be one. Sure, on my current hardware I could install SL on an external drive (although I think rebooting is a very lame workaround). But what happens a year from now when Apple ships new MBPs that won't boot SL?

There are other options. For some programs, it may be adequate to run them on an older mini someplace on your network and use screen sharing. That would probably work for me for Quicken. And maybe that will buy enough time for Intuit to get their act together.

Obviously, Apple can do whatever it wants. But it really hasn't been that long since key Mac software was finally made fully Intel native, including some of Apple's own. How long were PPC Macs able to run 68k code? How long was Classic available in OSX? Yes, PPC will eventually need to go, this transition just seems a bit more hasty than previous ones.
post #168 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

Maybe that changed since I started using VueScan - either that or it was some other category of devices (maybe a particular brand) that was unsupported.

I've got a UMAX Powerlook 3000 running from my Mac Pro using a Belkin FW to SCSI converter. I mostly use it with Silverfast, which is better, but I still upgrade VueScan out of sentimental reasons, and occasionally use that as well to see how it's doing these days. I haven't had a problem. But the Belkin has been discontinued for a while now. Possibly one can be found on eBay.
post #169 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Except often Apple ships hardware that you can't run older OSes on.

You mentioned several times that people like me aren't "customers" so why should Apple care. You've got it totally backwards. I am a customer. I upgrade my Apple hardware regularly. This decision actually prevents me from being a future customer, or at least makes it harder to be one. Sure, on my current hardware I could install SL on an external drive (although I think rebooting is a very lame workaround). But what happens a year from now when Apple ships new MBPs that won't boot SL?

There are other options. For some programs, it may be adequate to run them on an older mini someplace on your network and use screen sharing. That would probably work for me for Quicken. And maybe that will buy enough time for Intuit to get their act together.

Obviously, Apple can do whatever it wants. But it really hasn't been that long since key Mac software was finally made fully Intel native, including some of Apple's own. How long were PPC Macs able to run 68k code? How long was Classic available in OSX? Yes, PPC will eventually need to go, this transition just seems a bit more hasty than previous ones.

You can often run older OS's on machines a generation or two later. That should last several years of upgrades, as most people keep their machines for at least two years. That should give you another two or three years here.

But most programs have equivalents that are pretty close. This is really just a matter of biting the bullet. You know that at some point you will have no choice anyway. You might as well do it sooner rather than later. Most of the time, when people think that they really must use that old software, it's just a matter of not wanting to let go of something that feels familiar. Sure, other software may not have all the features, but it will usually have others that are better in some way.

A friend of mine switched from PC to MAC a couple of years ago and runs Windows so he can continue to use Quicken from there. He's not terribly bothered by it. It's a better app anyway if we're being truthful.

Then I see people saying that some program they need so badly isn't in Intel form, like Canvas, when it is. It makes me wonder if they really need that app so badly that they can't be bothered to go to the developer's site to find out, and have to complain about it here instead.

Or an old outdated, and surpassed program like Bryce.

I find this whole thing to be wonky. Even if we like an old program, it's time to go and find another. Often, people who say there isn't another haven't looked hard enough.
post #170 of 268
Hmm... its more of a problem that some software is not going to be updated.
Starcraft 1, Diablo 2 for example.
Other games as well. Unlike utility software like Office or Photoshop. Most companies release a game, then a few patches and then abandon it.

And then there are unsupported software that may be essential, Pagemaker users are still stuck in Classic (I know someone who works in updating legacy files in pagemaker. They can't migrate to a modern system since it uses Classic Fonts that never made it to OSX).

There isn't anything out there quite like Canvas. It's more of an engineering tool than an artist tool in a way which sets it apart from Photoshop or Pixelmator.

And the way UB works... its not hard to just allow the option to package the legacy frameworks for Rosetta.
post #171 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Eventually Boxee won me over.
I won't be missing FrontRow.

C.

I will. I can just see Boxee pushing forward with the Mac given that the Boxee Box is a competitor. Apple needs something more than apps that run better elsewhere. Front Row obviously has issues, but it is integrated and could be improved or replaced with something better. The Apple TV is not for everyone. Saying to use Boxee or XBMC or VLC is like telling someone the Mac has nothing special to offer.

I suppose the remote would be the next thing to go? Mac Mini gone?

I don't like the trend here. In any case, if I wanted to run Boxee ( and I don't) I would buy a Boxee Box.

It wasn't too long ago that VLC was rumoured to be dropping the Mac.

philip
post #172 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Why is anyone using Front Row with Boxee, Plex, XBMC all available on the mac?

Because it is well integrated. I will grant you that Plex is a great program. XBMC and Boxee are competitors, especially Boxee. Why should I rely on that? You can run XBMC and Boxee on very inexpensive hardware. I am not sure you have thought through the implications of Apple not being serious about media playback. Do you feel they should stop selling the Mini?

philip
post #173 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcd View Post

I will. I can just see Boxee pushing forward with the Mac given that the Boxee Box is a competitor. Apple needs something more than apps that run better elsewhere. Front Row obviously has issues, but it is integrated and could be improved or replaced with something better. The Apple TV is not for everyone. Saying to use Boxee or XBMC or VLC is like telling someone the Mac has nothing special to offer.

Had Apple updated Front Row and kept it in-step with the AppleTV, I might feel differently.
The Mac needs a media player with a remote interface. Boxee is okay. FrontRow is hopeless. In fact it is an irritation.

Me - using a remote to control Boxee
Daughter - trying to work on her Macbook.
Result: cries of exasperation from daughter as random media events push to fore.

C.
post #174 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Had Apple updated Front Row and kept it in-step with the AppleTV, I might feel differently.
The Mac needs a media player with a remote interface. Boxee is okay. FrontRow is hopeless. In fact it is an irritation.

Me - using a remote to control Boxee
Daughter - trying to work on her Macbook.
Result: cries of exasperation from daughter as random media events push to fore.

C.

I see your point. I just don't see Boxee and other competitors as a longrun solution. I agree that Apple should have a better media player. I am not a Boxee fan though I like XBMC and Plex. I must point out that I can use FrontRow to watch my EyeTV HD recordings that have been marked with comskip to remove ads. You can't do that with Plex/XBMC/Boxee.

I don't quite understand what it is that people dislike about frontrow. It has metadata, integrates with iTunes, integrates with EyeTV, plays back most every file, etc ( with Perian installed).

I can see making a case for Plex, but its client is not a high priority on the Mac. They have to take care of LG first.

philip
post #175 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFatWookie View Post

Microsoft Query as part of MS Office 2011 for Mac is listed as a Power PC App. That's messed up.

That's seriously messed up. I just installed MS Office 2011 a couple of weeks ago (out of necessity not preference).

I deleted all my PPC legacy apps in order to get ready for Lion (hadn't used any of them for years - was sorry to say goodbye to GraphicConverter as it had been my friend many years ago). The only ones I didn't were:-
  • Microsoft Query
  • Open XML for Charts
  • Open XML for Excel
  • Open XML for Word
  • pptfc

They are all MS code supporting Office from either August or December 2010. Let's hope they tweak those before the summer comes around.

As for Front Row - always looked nice and wowed people I demo'ed a Mac too, but I didn't use it. Maybe we'll see it in the App store for 99c?

And Java - seems like it's all nicely taken care of.
post #176 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

Of course, both the CS5 and Office 2008 core applications are 64 bit Intel (mostly?).

Bryce has no equivalent that I know of, with its range of capabilities and has a rich heritage. Something nice about the application actually, is the community that includes Mac and Windows users (up to Leopard and Win 7) talking on the one forum. (...and the creativity on display!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I used to use Bryce. But it fell behind years ago. Now, it's not very good. There are much better programs available, but they will cost you. Such is progress.

The plot thickens! I have Bryce 6 (next to latest version, 7 just released). I discovered that it is indeed universal. I was previously looking at Bryce 6 setup (on another computer) and this is PPC! So the good news is that Bryce lives on. Have another look at Bryce, I know how you feel but they have been doing a lot of work on it (still 32 bit) and you might find it interesting.

All the best.
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
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Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
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post #177 of 268
Guess I'm in the minority here but I'd really miss Front Row and the remote - hope they keep it onboard or as a download (i'd pay for it or similar)

Its very handy when chilling in a hotel room and wanting to catch up with podcasts, watch tv/movies, play music or catch up with iTunesU study - not about to lug AppleTV around for that...

Sure it's got odd behaviour cos its never been paid much attention too and updated properly (lack of proper integration with Aperture is a major bugbear) but surely that can't require that much in the way of resources - its such a small app - and sets Macs apart from other pcs - why lose it altogether

Please keep it Apple
post #178 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Damned, I agree 100% with you. And Diablo 2 works just fine too, I happen to have done a Necromancer a few weeks ago... I hope we still get a way to run those apps...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post

No Rosetta? There are still a good number of great PowerPC games I still like to play. Starcraft chief among them. With Starcraft II in the wild, I don't know how much motivation Blizzard would have to make a UB for the original Starcraft.

I just checked the Info boxes for both Starcraft and Diablo II and neither of them have (PowerPC) next to Application, so I think we may be OK.

On the other hand, Quicken 2007 says (PowerPC). This is truly terrible as Intuit only publishes a hamstrung version now. Maybe we can threaten to kick Bill Campbell off the board unless Intuit brings its Mac versions to parity with Windows. Porting some of its other products like TurboTax for the Professionals would be great. Under the ugly but necessary category would be porting TurboTax Business to Macs because it has Trust tax returns which *consumers* must file when their parents' Living Trusts kick in.

Everquest Mac is also PowerPC. Maybe Asypr can port it anew, like they did Civ III.
post #179 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcd View Post

I don't quite understand what it is that people dislike about frontrow. It has metadata, integrates with iTunes, integrates with EyeTV, plays back most every file, etc ( with Perian installed).

Perian struggles with MKVs especially if the file is being streamed across a network.

Boxee goes off to the internet to get its own metadata - which is considerably more pleasant than trying to tag movies by hand in iTunes.

There's some good apps for Boxee too.

C.
post #180 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr_b View Post

I will miss FrontRow. I hope they include an updated version in the final product or upgrade iTunes to include the functionality!

I've been a little sad about the prospect of losing FrontRow in Lion, because this is a feature I use quite regularly. It occurred to me that iTunes may finally incorporate this functionality as a Full Screen app, since FrontRow duplicated a subset of iTunes and seemed to be tricky to keep in sync.

I hope they do this, I'll miss it if they don't, but life will go on, and I can continue to use my AppleTV 2.
post #181 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Jeesh! This is simple. I've already responded to it.

Get another HDD, either external or internal, and put SL on that, and use it as a startup drive with all your old apps.

It's not as simple as that. In general, no Mac will run an older version of the operating system than it came with because the older OS doesn't support the latest hardware (new device drivers and what have you). So, if you needed to run 10.5 for some reason and had to go out and buy a new Mac today, you'd be out of luck.
post #182 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You can often run older OS's on machines a generation or two later. That should last several years of upgrades, as most people keep their machines for at least two years. That should give you another two or three years here.

I haven't been keeping track but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Quote:
But most programs have equivalents that are pretty close... Even if we like an old program, it's time to go and find another. Often, people who say there isn't another haven't looked hard enough.

Sorry, no offence, but that's completely barmy advice! Why on earth should someone be expected to take a perfectly good tool they're familiar with, they enjoy using, and that does the job then throw it out and start researching all over again? Forget the cost of buying some more software, it's the time spent searching for and then learning the replacement that's crucial. How is that supposed to be the epitome of a good user experience?
post #183 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

The plot thickens! I have Bryce 6 (next to latest version, 7 just released). I discovered that it is indeed universal. I was previously looking at Bryce 6 setup (on another computer) and this is PPC! So the good news is that Bryce lives on. Have another look at Bryce, I know how you feel but they have been doing a lot of work on it (still 32 bit) and you might find it interesting.

All the best.

Well, I'm happy you found the Intel version. I use this these days:

http://www.planetside.co.uk/

It's much better than Bryce, which has been relegated to amateur status. It's too bad, because it was unique for a while.

There's also this:

http://www.pandromeda.com/products/mojoworldpro.php

and this;

http://naturalgfx.com/

and this:

http://www.planetside.co.uk/

and this:

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/

So when people post that there is nothing to replace their beloved product, which may not be up to modern tasks anyway, I tend to believe that it's only because people are not really interested in finding out.

All of those programs are better than Bryce is today. Some by a long way.
post #184 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhowarth View Post

It's not as simple as that. In general, no Mac will run an older version of the operating system than it came with because the older OS doesn't support the latest hardware (new device drivers and what have you). So, if you needed to run 10.5 for some reason and had to go out and buy a new Mac today, you'd be out of luck.

That's not always true. In the bad ild days, Apple needed a unique bit of software for each machine because of that. but if a new machine doesn't have something that's unique, often the older OS will work. In addition, very often you can install that OS on an external drive somewhere else, if need be, and then use it as your start-up, and it works. I've done it, so I know it works.
post #185 of 268
I think the loss of Front Row fits with Lion's support for full screen apps. Most media apps already are capable of running full screen, so I don't see the loss of Front Row as a big deal.
post #186 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhowarth View Post

I haven't been keeping track but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

You can be pretty sure, but I've done it. It doesn't always work, but as I said in my other post just before this, there are ways...

Quote:
Sorry, no offence, but that's completely barmy advice! Why on earth should someone be expected to take a perfectly good tool they're familiar with, they enjoy using, and that does the job then throw it out and start researching all over again? Forget the cost of buying some more software, it's the time spent searching for and then learning the replacement that's crucial. How is that supposed to be the epitome of a good user experience?

Really! At some point in time ALL programs you have will not work on a new machine. Like it or not, that's a fact. It could have been two years ago, or it could be two years from now, but it will happen. So, like it or not, you will have to go shopping for something else. The longer you wait, the harder it becomes to transfer data over.

I've had to do this a number of times over the years, including moving data from one platform to another. You can do it, and you will find a program that works. It's a learning experience, and you will miss the way you did things, and the lack of some features, but you will gain others, and it will work.

It's naive to expect a company to support every old program that's out there. I'm sure that there are people who ares till frothing over at the fact that System 9 programs aren't supported, or 68xxx programs. But, they got over it, and so will you. Even MS eventually eliminated support for DOS. It happens, and people shouldn't be surprised when it does.
post #187 of 268
Very concerned about dropping Rosetta - need it for running my homeopathic software - named Macrepertory - reference works ( including more than 700 books) Should all homeopathic doctors switch to the windows version of this software - I know that there are thousands out there using a Mac for their work!!!
The developer of this advanced homeopathic software died last year - so it will take a lot of effort to be intel only.
Upgrading from SnowLeo to Lion should provide, that I can use my preinstalled Rosetta. I can understand, that new programs, which want to use this old environment are getting a stop signal!
This makes sense to me!!!
post #188 of 268
Instead of all this speculation, perhaps someone with a copy of the Lion preview can say whether Rosetta runs or not. I know from reading around the net that Lion boots into the 64 bit kernel by default. Since it's only going to support the 64 bit machines, Lion might not even have a 32 bit kernel. I think that's the reason Rosetta can't run. But if Lion can be booted to a 32 bit kernel, perhaps Rosetta will work after all.
post #189 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by edd View Post

Very concerned about dropping Rosetta - need it for running my homeopathic software - named Macrepertory - reference works ( including more than 700 books) Should all homeopathic doctors switch to the windows version of this software - I know that there are thousands out there using a Mac for their work!!!
The developer of this advanced homeopathic software died last year - so it will take a lot of effort to be intel only.
Upgrading from SnowLeo to Lion should provide, that I can use my preinstalled Rosetta. I can understand, that new programs, which want to use this old environment are getting a stop signal!
This makes sense to me!!!

Using Windows for this app seems to be the best idea, assuming you need to upgrade your OS at all. Do you use the computer this is installed on for anything else?
post #190 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

Instead of all this speculation, perhaps someone with a copy of the Lion preview can say whether Rosetta runs or not. I know from reading around the net that Lion boots into the 64 bit kernel by default. Since it's only going to support the 64 bit machines, Lion might not even have a 32 bit kernel. I think that's the reason Rosetta can't run. But if Lion can be booted to a 32 bit kernel, perhaps Rosetta will work after all.

That's another thing. Word is that it won't support 32 bit Yonah machines.
post #191 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's another thing. Word is that it won't support 32 bit Yonah machines.

That was the 32 bit Core Duo, right. It only ever shipped in the very first Intel MacBooks, didn't it--back in 2007?
post #192 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

That was the 32 bit Core Duo, right. It only ever shipped in the very first Intel MacBooks, didn't it--back in 2007?

My 2006 MBP (1st gen) is Core Duo. It's finally being replaced this weekend
post #193 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

That was the 32 bit Core Duo, right. It only ever shipped in the very first Intel MacBooks, didn't it--back in 2007?

Before that. It was the first Intel chip in a Mac. But this likely, if word is correct, won't support any 32 bit Intel chips, including those in Hackintoshes.
post #194 of 268
I will admit I took lion out for a spin and I did not love it (but I can see it growing on me )
BUT...
OSX lion is still in beta mode.
One can assume it will include better support all around once the final release comes out (I would like to see the dashboard having a picture background) Lion is missing some of the core functionalities/applications of mac one can assume that front row will be released in the final version. As for rosetta, you can assume that some developer will come out with another translator or apple will come out with rosetta in the final release. Java will definitely come with the final release.
post #195 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekX View Post

I will admit I took lion out for a spin and I did not love it

Probably because you're not supposed to have it.

Quote:
As for rosetta, you can assume that some developer will come out with another translator or apple will come out with rosetta in the final release.

Sure hope not.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #196 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekX View Post

Java will definitely come with the final release.

highly doubt this. If you want Java, you will download the most current VM from Oracle.
post #197 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchanted View Post

highly doubt this. If you want Java, you will download the most current VM from Oracle.

No, Java 1.6 will be supplied by Apple, but it will likely be a download just as it currently is in the developer preview.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #198 of 268
Hi, can someone help please

i'm keen to try out a front row substitute if its going to disappear soon

Front Row enables me to go from my Mac desktop to viewing movies, tv shows, photos, music, audiobooks, podcasts (audio and video), iTunesU audio and video - all with one click of a remote button and a simply navigated interface

I've looked at plex, boxee and xbmc and they dont seem to offer all those functions - am i missing something?

thanks
post #199 of 268
I assume that the latest OS is not always the best choice, when running a good software - I think I am on "wait"
post #200 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by edd View Post

I assume that the latest OS is not always the best choice, when running a good software - I think I am on "wait"

Good software being... stuff that hasn't been updated since aught five?

And Java?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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