or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Commercial airlines look to Apple's iPad for paperless cockpits
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Commercial airlines look to Apple's iPad for paperless cockpits - Page 2

post #41 of 91
If pilots can use iPads in the cockpit, does this mean passengers will finally be able to use them during takeoff & landing?
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Maps and such should be built in to the airplane cockpit displays, not on an iPad. And emergency procedures should be on paper (even if they are on iPad also) in case the battery is flat.

[REDACTED] canyonblue737 made the case far better than I was willing to
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
post #43 of 91
The FAA also announced that air traffic controllers will be using the iPad for their more difficult traffic control applications.
http://bit.ly/9vmDVJ
post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post

... Image of an approach chart
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AA...s/image004.jpg

I guess that last upward turning arrow represents the point of no return?
post #45 of 91
Just remember to click the screen lock before executing barrel rolls.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply
post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Maps and such should be built in to the airplane cockpit displays, not on an iPad. And emergency procedures should be on paper (even if they are on iPad also) in case the battery is flat.

One part of the procedures has to do with cockpit display failure. Any suggestions?
post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post

The airplanes all have the map data built into their computer databases of course but we use the maps for a lot of additional detail as pilots. If I tell the plane "Go direct to Chicago O'Hare" it of course knows where that is because it has it in the database etc. but the paper maps provide it in a useable way that the primary displays can't. These charts will likely be replicated in as straight forward a way as a .pdf file on an iPad for us.

Image of a 737 navigational display (the display on the right with all the circles) http://www.flickr.com/photos/ruthann/4183901907/

Image of an enroute paper chart
http://www.altairva-fs.com/training/...oute_chart.htm

Image of an approach chart
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AA...s/image004.jpg

I would also like to thank you for your professional opinion, views and posts.

Welcome to AI!
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
Reply
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
Reply
post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lochias View Post

One part of the procedures has to do with cockpit display failure. Any suggestions?

Delta is going paperless in its cockpits. I think that Apple and Delta are way ahead of you, soldier.
post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post

I am an airline pilot for a large major US airline. Let me explain what these are really going to be used for...

Thanks for taking the time to write this all up, very interesting potential uses you pointed out. (A single post like this is miles better that many of the "speculation" threads that go on for pages.)
post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post

Well the main aircraft computers are never going to do Wi-Fi anything. You could create a custom wired connection to the computers but the cost of development and installation of such systems would be millions and millions and millions of dollars and defeats the point of these units (low cost but effective tools.)

The real answer is many airlines are adding ground antenna or satellite based internet which then broadcasts Wi-Fi in the plane for passenger use. These cockpit devices will tap into the same to provide additional information to pilots we don't have today, like real time national weather radar and more and of course you can plot the plane position from tracking data that is provided to any typical "flight tracker" like website. It doesn't need to be perfect as you are talking about "big picture" data and none of this is going to be used for primary navigation or even primary weather decision making etc. it is just another tool in the quiver. In the event the Wi-Fi stops working no major crisis as that wasn't primary anyway and well we don't even have it today and everything works just fine!

Heh. That's kind of what I was thinking, but I'm not a pilot, and know nothing about airplanes' inner workings. I figured an expert would clarify things for me. Thanks!
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
post #51 of 91
Heh. You said 'cockpits'. Sweet.
post #52 of 91
Sounds like a couple iPads in every cockpit could not only save some money, but save a few trees as well.
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
post #53 of 91
So if these get certified to use in the cockpit during flight, does that mean we'll be able to use them in coach during take-off and landing? That would be nice. Maybe a first step for finally dropping those outdated electronics interference rules.
post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post

I am an airline pilot for a large major US airline. Let me explain what these are really going to be used for...

The iPad is HUGELY interesting to airlines at this point. First and foremost is cost. The idea of getting the low end $500 iPad...

...Second the hand touch interface is far easier than the pen based input on Windows tablets. Third the smaller size is just in another universe compared to existing EFB solutions...

... see the radar picture ahead 100-200 miles using our own radar but have no access to NATIONAL radar pictures like you see on TV? We have to piece together a mental picture from text based and verbal descriptions but a Wi-Fi connected iPad could of course provide such real time data to us so we can make wise course changes 1000's of miles away from weather rather than 100's.)

These devices are not, and will never be used for primary navigation of the plane etc. which is all done via very sophisticated inertial reference systems combined with triple redundant GPS that is far beyond anything in any consumer device and which alone costs more than a typical house.

Thank you, Canyonblue737. It's fabulously informative to hear from an experienced pilot.
post #55 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

Just remember to click the screen lock before executing barrel rolls.

LOLz.
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

This hits a nerve...

Different time, different indusrty -- same problem:



Each salesman and system engineer always carried a sales manual containing detailed descriptions. prices, availability for every product we sold -- hundreds of [very thin paper] pages of very small print.

These sales manuals were updated continuously -- requiring several hours each week to remove and replace the pages.

In addition. each system engineer had a set of technical manuals describing the computer systems he, specifically, supported: computer model; peripherals; operating systems (there were several choices); applications; programming languages (there were several), etc. A reference set of these manuals was, typically, a 4-6 foot high stack of 8 1/2 x 11 binders. Guess what, each of these manuls were. also, updated continuously -- another few hours per week updating manuals.

Most IBM salesmen and system engineers carried their sales manual, brochures and whatever technical manuals would be used (that day) in an attache case -- roughly equivalent of your flight bag.

IBM Customer Engineers (repairmen) had an equivalent collection of repair manuals with repair/maintenance procedures, wiring diagrams, pictorial repair diagrams, etc.

That whole problem and waste of time could be eliminated by giving each of those an iPad and electronic updates -- much the way app updates are delivered to the iPad, today!


They would be more productive, more efficient and more effective!


I don't know how IBM branch offices operate, today.

But any company that has a large field organization: salesmen calling on customers; repairmen going on site; support people training customers or fixing software problems...

These companies have a need similar to the airplane pilots, flight engineers, maintenance and repairmen.

They must have a set of constantly updated information at their fingertips, with them during their working hours.


I wonder how many thousands of companies and millions of employees have similar needs.

And the trees! Won't somebody please think of the trees!!!
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejtttje View Post

So if these get certified to use in the cockpit during flight, does that mean we'll be able to use them in coach during take-off and landing? That would be nice. Maybe a first step for finally dropping those outdated electronics interference rules.

Interference is something that at times can be very random and hard to pinpoint. Plus you have the issue that hundreds of devices operating at the same time can cause issues a single unit might not cause.

Think of it this way do you really want to be using that iPad during the most dangerous part of a flight? A point in the flight where the pilot has very little if any time to compensate for a glitch in the control or navigation systems. You need to realize that the request to turn off electronics is a reasonable one and is done to support aircraft safety. I'm actually surprised that anybody these days needs to be told to turn off their hardware during take offs or landings.
post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elian Gonzalez View Post

Don't these airlines know that XOOM is Everything a Tablet Should Be?

Hers's the real rub... While I have no doubt that over time Android will overtake Apple in the tablet space just as they have in the cell phone space. However, Apples products will FOREVER have the widest variety of cases and accessories...

Why?

Volume! Sure the 'generic Android device' will have greater marketshare it will FOREVER be fragmented between MANY vendors with a HUGE number of random devices... While Apple will have the iPhone and iPad.

Since it entered this space... Apples iPhone has what? Three different form factors while the Android .... I couldn't even count them. The iPad in two similar form factors... Compared with Dozens of devices being designed / built / redesigned and canceled and perhaps never making it to market.

When it comes to EXPENSIVE to enter markets such as ... Anything involving the FDA or FAA etc... Where a device must endure costly and lengthly testing and evaluation periods who is going to do that with some randomly selected Android device?
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
Reply
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
Reply
post #59 of 91
What up with the glossy screen complainers, not jumping in here and claiming they would never fly an airplane with a pilot using an iPad? Here is your chance to offer up more of your baseless complaining and ignorance.

I only bring this up because if you are flying above the cloud cover and pollution you will have plenty of sunlight to bounce off things. Yet we have pilots successfully using multiple types of computing devices and even iPads. Maybe, just maybe the glare problem is more of an issue with the user than the device. Now I'm not saying glare or for that matter washed out screens aren't an issue, it is just that the user has some impact on how those problems impact the user.
post #60 of 91
As for us general aviation pilots, my friends and I (lots of certified flight instructors also) now use the ipad for teaching and flight planning. I am now going to buy the ipad2 (my first ipad), so that I can take advantage of the EFB capability. The very excellent Foreflight app will have all the necessary charts, and will finally show your plane on the chart and taxi diagrams, at much cheaper prices than Jeppesen. Being able to hotspot tether the ipad2 with my iphone4 makes a lot of sense, at very little cost.

The only caveats (and these may be deal breakers) is that the ipad1 was very prone to overheating in the cockpit (have to keep it out of the sun). Also, general aviation pilots need to be aware that it can also be prone to overheating at high altitudes in non-pressurized environments (not much of an issue in commercial usage, of course, where cabin altitudes are controlled).

Anyhow, when the ipad overheats, the screen goes blank - not good. Have not received an answer on how the ipad1 was certified with these very-real limitations.

From what I've been told, an external GPS antenna (placed in the glareshield, and bluetooth tethered to the ipad) makes precision tracking available on the ipad, but, then again, you have panel-mounted avionics for this primary function, so it is not really necessary to have precision output on the ipad map, and the ipad is used as "situational awareness data" which is allowed by the FAA for any device that doesn't interfere with any other primary instruments, and which is properly mounted in the aircraft (most folks strap it to their leg, or place it next to them on the console or copilot seat).

Anyhow, can't wait to get the ipad2, and start to get rid of the tons of paper that inhabit my cockpit, assuming the heat issues have been resolved (hope the thinner ipad2 will be less prone to overheating, but who knows?).
post #61 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post

And the trees! Won't somebody please think of the trees!!!

Yes! I was going to mention that in my post -- At the time, IBM was rumored to be one of the largest publishers in the world. I suspect the 1-200,000 IBM employees I mentioned consumed 100,000 trees per year -- just keeping manuals updated...

What a waste!
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #62 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

What up with the glossy screen complainers, not jumping in here and claiming they would never fly an airplane with a pilot using an iPad? Here is your chance to offer up more of your baseless complaining and ignorance.

I only bring this up because if you are flying above the cloud cover and pollution you will have plenty of sunlight to bounce off things. Yet we have pilots successfully using multiple types of computing devices and even iPads. Maybe, just maybe the glare problem is more of an issue with the user than the device. Now I'm not saying glare or for that matter washed out screens aren't an issue, it is just that the user has some impact on how those problems impact the user.

Glare off the screen is not as much of a problem as you would think, because you usually have it mounted on your leg (with a velcro strap) or on the console or co pilot seat, and you can easily tilt it if you get reflections. So-called "Glass Cockpit" displays have the same issues, but have been made more anti-reflective to cut down on this problem, and use better screens to mimimize off-angle viewing difficulties. Polarized glasses cause a few problems with certain displays, but are minimal for most applications.
post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

As for us general aviation pilots, my friends and I (lots of certified flight instructors also) now use the ipad for teaching and flight planning. I am now going to buy the ipad2 (my first ipad), so that I can take advantage of the EFB capability. The very excellent Foreflight app will have all the necessary charts, and will finally show your plane on the chart and taxi diagrams, at much cheaper prices than Jeppesen. Being able to hotspot tether the ipad2 with my iphone4 makes a lot of sense, at very little cost.

The only caveats (and these may be deal breakers) is that the ipad1 was very prone to overheating in the cockpit (have to keep it out of the sun). Also, general aviation pilots need to be aware that it can also be prone to overheating at high altitudes in non-pressurized environments (not much of an issue in commercial usage, of course, where cabin altitudes are controlled).

Anyhow, when the ipad overheats, the screen goes blank - not good. Have not received an answer on how the ipad1 was certified with these very-real limitations.

From what I've been told, an external GPS antenna (placed in the glareshield, and bluetooth tethered to the ipad) makes precision tracking available on the ipad, but, then again, you have panel-mounted avionics for this primary function, so it is not really necessary to have precision output on the ipad map, and the ipad is used as "situational awareness data" which is allowed by the FAA for any device that doesn't interfere with any other primary instruments, and which is properly mounted in the aircraft (most folks strap it to their leg, or place it next to them on the console or copilot seat).

Anyhow, can't wait to get the ipad2, and start to get rid of the tons of paper that inhabits my cockpit, assuming the heat issues have been resolved (hope the thinner ipad2 will be less prone to overheating, but who knows?).


Hey Bagman,

If the iPad 2 overheats get a bumper.... just kidding.

Seriously, when you get to use it for a while, report back on one of these AI threads...

I am curious to see how it work in practice.

... 'course if you were flying an aircoupe, the cabin stays cool, 'cause you need to stick your hand out the window to make it slip

"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #64 of 91
Thanks for that great posting - really gives us an insiders view of this story!
post #65 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Hey Bagman,

If the iPad 2 overheats get a bumper.... just kidding.

Seriously, when you get to use it for a while, report back on one of these AI threads...

I am curious to see how it work in practice.

... 'course if you were flying an aircoupe, the cabin stays cool, 'cause you need to stick your hand out the window to make it slip


Dick, is that your Ercoupe? Lots of folks are flying planes with bubble canopies, but they are hot as hell, so I like my air-conditioned Bonanza just fine. Can't stick my head outside, but I do ask that my friends who smoke do so outside the cockpit.
post #66 of 91
But wait......I thought that the iPad was just a toy?


How many toys have FAA approval?

post #67 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Dick, is that your Ercoupe? Lots of folks are flying planes with bubble canopies, but they are hot as hell, so I like my air-conditioned Bonanza just fine. Can't stick my head outside, but I do ask that my friends who smoke do so outside the cockpit.

Nah! I don't fly.

Long ago, when I worked night shift, I took flying lessons out of El Monte, CA. Mostly Air-knockers and an occasional supercub... the aeronca could land going backwards in a 50 mph wind.

Had an old-time instructor who taught spins -- understand they don't teach that anymore...

Bonanza -- I'm impressed! Nice plane. My Dad's boss owned one and flew it from Minnesota to Long Beach, CA & back.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu View Post

You have to have backups. Otherwise, if cockpit system loses power, you are screwed.

If the a/c loses power, the loss of data is the least of your worries.

And hey, while we're at it, can we have an app that uses the GPS position to alert the crew "HEY! DON'T FORGET TO LAND!"
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Bonanza -- I'm impressed! Nice plane. My Dad's boss owned one and flew it from Minnesota to Long Beach, CA & back.

Ah, the fork tailed doctor killer.
post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightzero View Post

Ah, the fork tailed doctor killer.

Debonair.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Maps and such should be built in to the airplane cockpit displays, not on an iPad. And emergency procedures should be on paper (even if they are on iPad also) in case the battery is flat.

Don't you think that they will be using this for their check lists and passanger manifests etc. I couldn't imagine that they would rely on an iPad for maps and emergency procedures.
post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightzero View Post

Ah, the fork tailed doctor killer.

Nope mine is a turbo B36TC. Straight tail. Sweet.
post #73 of 91
"Maybe you just wanna fly the plane yourself. Well good luck pressing take off, then auto pilot, then land." Carol - 30 Rock

Maybe the iPad2 can fly the plane? ha
post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elian Gonzalez View Post

Don't these airlines know that XOOM is Everything a Tablet Should Be?

What is Xoom? Is that some liquid to clean floors?
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I guess that last upward turning arrow represents the point of no return?

That is the Missed Approach Point, or in this case the "Decision Altitude" where if you don't have the required elements of the runway in sight you would begin the missed approach which of course starts with a climb (the upward arrow) and then proceeds via the text description near the top of the chart or with the shorthand symbology cues in the small boxes just below the upwards arrow.
post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Kubrick View Post

"Maybe you just wanna fly the plane yourself. Well good luck pressing take off, then auto pilot, then land." Carol - 30 Rock

Maybe the iPad2 can fly the plane? ha

Countless times a passengers sticks there head in the cockpit and marvels, "I bet it just flies itself!" I just smile and say "pretty much" but think, "LOOK AROUND!" http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../9/1190987.jpg
post #77 of 91
Interetingly, one of the first Electronic Flight Bags was a joint venture years ago between Apple and Boeing based on a Mac. IIRC, it was a Quadra 800. In fact, as I remember, I think it was the product for which the term EFB was coined.
post #78 of 91
I actually did a lot of the data work on EFBs for commercial flight. Just throwing out a few more details for those interested. I believe this stuff to be common knowledge.

EFBs can be rated for use without paper charts, they have been certified in large commercial aircraft including the 777. Look up 777 images at Airliners.net and look to the right or left of the center console, you will either see a blank panel, or a glass screen. If it is a glass screen, it is a Class 3 EFB. This means it is installed in the instrument bay, draws power from the main bus etc. They may have wi-fi capabilities.

Class 2 EFBs can draw power from the aircraft I believe, but need to be put away under 10,000ft. That is usually a mounted laptop. Same for Class 1 which probably would be iPad and other non-mounted laptop/tablet solution.

EFBs do not control primary flight and are subject to less stringent rules, however they do carry significant certification.

Notams etc. are PDF, but the charts themselves are proprietary images. While the update process is non-trivial (even by computer), taking out the human error for each manual, it is ultimately safer for the industry.
post #79 of 91
This system will be INCREDIBLE when the ipad goes retina.

The airline i work for (presently the world's largest following a recent merger) has been "closely studying" the "Electronic Flight Bag" idea for over ten years. Trouble is, our shatty management loves to trip over dollars to pick up dimes and will probably continue to do nothing.

Meanwhile, countless pilots suffer torn rotator cuff injuries every year from lugging around heavy flight bags and throwing them in and out of our cockpits. Someone needs to quantify what this is costing the company in disability---because they certainly aren't concerned about making a change for the pilots' sake.
post #80 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post

Countless times a passengers sticks there head in the cockpit and marvels, "I bet it just flies itself!" I just smile and say "pretty much" but think, "LOOK AROUND!" http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../9/1190987.jpg

Dude, it's just like X-Plane! This should be easy!!! </kidding!!!>

But seriously, that flight console does look pretty swanky.
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPad
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Commercial airlines look to Apple's iPad for paperless cockpits