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Obama Breaks his Gitmo Pledge: Do you even care?

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
Where's the outrage?

Obama has ordered the restarting of military tribunals. After announcing in January 2009 that he was going to close Gitmo, there is no such closing in sight. He has also reinstated the same military tribunals that he and the Democrats railed against.

To me, this is the right decision. I've always believed this is the appropriate way to try terrorists captured in battle. But, I find it curious. Where are threads calling this immoral? Where are the liberal editorials slamming such trials as un-American? I thought we had to treat our enemies under the "rule of law?" I thought they deserved criminal trials? What, no screaming threads on AI accusing Obama of shredding the Constitution? No one calling him a war criminal? Let me guess...it's the GOP's fault because they cut off funding for transferring prisoners back to the U.S.?

So, same actions. But, Bush=war criminal. Obama=measured pragmatist doing what's right for the nation.

Got it.
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post #2 of 41
Quote:
Obama made the change with clear reluctance, bowing to the reality that Congress' vehement opposition to trying detainees on U.S. soil leaves them nowhere else to go. The president emphasized his preference for trials in federal civilian courts, and his administration blamed congressional meddling for closing off that avenue.

Quote:
Obama's administration has enacted some changes to the military commission system while aiming to close down Guantanamo.

Quote:
The administration also announced support for additional international agreements on humane treatment of detainees. The White House said that would underscore to the world its commitment to fair treatment and would help guard against the mistreatment of U.S. military personnel should they be captured.

False equivalency is false.

Am I thrilled with this decision? No. If it comes down to release them, keep them with no trials, or have military trials...the last one is the lesser of all evils if Congress refuses to allow them to be tried in civilian courts.

I think the right wing is playing into Obama's pragmatism. They take advantage of his willingness to compromise and ability to make unpleasant decisions when faced with two bad choices. They should have shut down that fucking place 2 years ago, certainly. Though I wonder what the campaign ads would have been like against all the Democratic senators and reps who voted to pass that.

Shit situation. I don't like what's happening. But claiming Obama and Bush are equals here is bullshit.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #3 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I think the right wing is playing into Obama's pragmatism.

So now keeping Gitmo open is about pragmatism? Because when Bush was doing it, it wasn't described that way...

----


The idea that Gitmo's prisoners could be tried en masse in U.S. federal civilian courts has always been crazy.
No-one who's been paying attention could really think that would happen.

I'm not defending Gitmo, since I'm sure there are all kinds of innocent people being held over there. But there's a reason the whole situation's a mess. I think the U.S. will just end up handing those still there back to the Afghan government eventually, having paid a lot of money for that privilege and with some assurances that the most dangerous will be dealt with.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #4 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Where's the outrage?


Got it.

As one who voted for Bush for his first term but not his second then later voted for Obama for his first run for the White House I can report to you that as it regards this very issue that you raise with regard to Guantanamo I am not proud of the "leadership" of Bush or Obama.

With Obama I am even more outraged as he misled the public with this very specific subject when he ran for office with rhetoric which indicated he would make "changes" to close Guantanamo.

Obama failed to deliver. America can do better.

The sad part is that this all seems to be yet more in a long line of events which seem to be a plan to destroy this country and what it used to stand for. I have no faith in any of our leaders.

You have the right to think this policy is "good" or the right thing to do...

I think that is really sad dude.

Fellows
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #5 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

So now keeping Gitmo open is about pragmatism? Because when Bush was doing it, it wasn't described that way...

You clearly never bothered to read my whole post. You didn't read the quotes from the article I selected for you either. If you did, you clearly didn't comprehend, remember, or acknowledge the point.

There is a false equivalency between what Bush did and what Obama is doing. I will not repeat myself further. Go back and read what I quoted and said.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #6 of 41
To address Fellows specific point about lack of outrage at some blatant hypocrisy, I think that the reason is not too hard to find.

Obama promised change but turned out to be more of the same - and will turn out to be perhaps worse imo - so people might feel let down (or do they?) but they don't feel surprised. Simply because it IS more of the same.

I also don't think the whole 'change' thing was real and I don't think anyone really believed it - they just wanted it so bad they convinced themselves.

As to Bush - he is one of those characters (like Palin) that is almost cartoon-like and as such is a pantomime villain that people can pin all their favourite 'evils' on.

I'm not saying he wasn't a moron but I gained some sort of respect for him (only a little) after the shoe-throwing incident and how he handled it as a person and a bit more respect (still only a little) every time I consider Obama.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You clearly never bothered to read my whole post. You didn't read the quotes from the article I selected for you either. If you did, you clearly didn't comprehend, remember, or acknowledge the point.

There is a false equivalency between what Bush did and what Obama is doing. I will not repeat myself further. Go back and read what I quoted and said.

So from what I read the post says that the people detained there are dangerous and need to be tried, but in civilian courts. And since that is not politically popular enough he is going to keep the same old thing going. And this is all the conservatives fault. Even if he did what he said he would and shut the facility down it would not be politically popular and the conservatives would use it against him at the polls, and this is all the conservatives fault.

On the other side, since he cannot simply shut the facility down or try the prisoners in the public court system he has promised instead to make things better at Gitmo by putting in policies to protect their human rights and to make the military tribunals more fair. So they are bad people who must be tried, but not in military courts and they should not be released without first being tried to determine whether or not they are there for good reason.

So, it is all the conservatives fault he could not follow through on his promises and the token changes he makes shows pragmatism on his part. He wants to be reelected more than he wants to follow through on his promise. Because him being in office is more important than the ideals he showcased to get there.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #8 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

False equivalency is false.

Exactly as I predicted. "You see SDW, it's just NOT the same! Obama oh-so-reluctantly made the decision after much pondering and after being forced by the nasty Congress. And he wants to change some stuff about it...he's working with the world to demonstrate our commitment to.....sounding really good but not changing anything."

Quote:

Am I thrilled with this decision? No. If it comes down to release them, keep them with no trials, or have military trials...the last one is the lesser of all evils if Congress refuses to allow them to be tried in civilian courts.

If this was Bush, you would be flipping your lid. So would the majority of the media. The Left would go berserk.

Quote:

I think the right wing is playing into Obama's pragmatism. They take advantage of his willingness to compromise and ability to make unpleasant decisions when faced with two bad choices. They should have shut down that fucking place 2 years ago, certainly. Though I wonder what the campaign ads would have been like against all the Democratic senators and reps who voted to pass that.

And I think Obama suffers from paralysis from analysis. He doesn't lead. He ponders and agonizes and then does something everyone hates.

Quote:

Shit situation. I don't like what's happening. But claiming Obama and Bush are equals here is bullshit.

You're right...Bush kept it open because he thought certain people belonged there and had no place in our criminal justice system. Obama's keeping it open because of political pressure. You're right...Obama is much worse in this case.

[quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

So now keeping Gitmo open is about pragmatism? Because when Bush was doing it, it wasn't described that way...

----

That would be my point. BR demonstrates the attitude and hypocrisy perfectly. He "doesn't like it." It "sucks." Obama has to choose between two "terrible choices." Oh, woe is me..the weight of the office. I do declare...I've got me a case of the vapors!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch (literally), Bush was "violating human rights." He was "ripping to shreds that which we hold most dear...the right to a fair trial." Bush was doing something worse than Japanese internment!

Somehow I can't help but notice the rhetorical difference.

Quote:


The idea that Gitmo's prisoners could be tried en masse in U.S. federal civilian courts has always been crazy.
No-one who's been paying attention could really think that would happen.

I think Holder did.

Quote:

I'm not defending Gitmo, since I'm sure there are all kinds of innocent people being held over there. But there's a reason the whole situation's a mess. I think the U.S. will just end up handing those still there back to the Afghan government eventually, having paid a lot of money for that privilege and with some assurances that the most dangerous will be dealt with.

There are likely some innocent people. We've also released many, however.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

As one who voted for Bush for his first term but not his second then later voted for Obama for his first run for the White House I can report to you that as it regards this very issue that you raise with regard to Guantanamo I am not proud of the "leadership" of Bush or Obama.

With Obama I am even more outraged as he misled the public with this very specific subject when he ran for office with rhetoric which indicated he would make "changes" to close Guantanamo.

Obama failed to deliver. America can do better.

Thanks for the intellectual honesty, really. But how can we do "better" exactly on this issue. That's just a platitude.

Quote:

The sad part is that this all seems to be yet more in a long line of events which seem to be a plan to destroy this country and what it used to stand for. I have no faith in any of our leaders.

You have the right to think this policy is "good" or the right thing to do...

I think that is really sad dude.

Fellows

Whatever. What do you want to do?


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

To address Fellows specific point about lack of outrage at some blatant hypocrisy, I think that the reason is not too hard to find.

Obama promised change but turned out to be more of the same - and will turn out to be perhaps worse imo - so people might feel let down (or do they?) but they don't feel surprised. Simply because it IS more of the same.

I also don't think the whole 'change' thing was real and I don't think anyone really believed it - they just wanted it so bad they convinced themselves.

Apparently a lot of people believed it. Joke's on them. Or us.

Quote:

As to Bush - he is one of those characters (like Palin) that is almost cartoon-like and as such is a pantomime villain that people can pin all their favourite 'evils' on.

I'm not saying he wasn't a moron but I gained some sort of respect for him (only a little) after the shoe-throwing incident and how he handled it as a person and a bit more respect (still only a little) every time I consider Obama.

Interesting and honest. Much appreciated.
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post #9 of 41
I do care. It was the right thing to do. Too bad it took this amateur 2 years of on the job training to figure that out.

Now can he suffer all ridiculous street theater that Bush was subject to? Where's Code Pink? The Die Ins and hooded Gitmo poseurs for college campuses? Come hither.
post #10 of 41
The Bush and Obama policies regarding Gitmo are objectively different. To claim otherwise is simply to unabashadly lie. The two are literally unequal. Now, if you want to argue Obama failed on a campaign promise, go right ahead.

The sign of true compromise is both sides leaving the negotiating table a bit unhappy. You claim that's a weakness of Obama. I say if we all step back and take off our partisan spectacles, he's compromised more than any president in recent memory...and he's done so in the face of some of the most hideous and obstinate opposition rhetoric flying at him from all directions.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The Bush and Obama policies regarding Gitmo are objectively different. The two are literally unequal.

Can you enumerate the specific differences between the Bush and Obama policies regarding Gitmo?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #12 of 41
I quoted the relevant bits above in my first response. I do not know the details. I am trusting the news source that SDW provided. If you would like to dispute the veracity of that source, take it up with SDW and I'll adjust my position based on new evidence presented as a result.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #13 of 41
Or should my response to you have been "Waaaaaaaah I won't answer until you answer my other questions waaaaaaaaaaah?"

Nah, I'll stick with what I said.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #14 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I do not know the details.

Got it. Thanks.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #15 of 41
You're clearly just playing games here. It is painfully obvious to all involved. Stop behaving like a troll.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're clearly just playing games here. It is painfully obvious to all involved. Stop behaving like a troll.

Well, yes...I am playing a game.

The game is: Someone makes a specific concrete claim ("The Bush and Obama policies regarding Gitmo are objectively different. The two are literally unequal.") but does not provide evidence supporting the claim, so call them on it and then highlight when they refuse to support the claim but, instead, admit they "don't know the details."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The Bush and Obama policies regarding Gitmo are objectively different. To claim otherwise is simply to unabashadly lie. The two are literally unequal. Now, if you want to argue Obama failed on a campaign promise, go right ahead.

OK...Gitmo is still open and will be for a long time, right? Both Presidents (now) want tribunals, right? So, uh, why are they different...because Obama talks a lot about other policies?

Quote:

The sign of true compromise is both sides leaving the negotiating table a bit unhappy. You claim that's a weakness of Obama. I say if we all step back and take off our partisan spectacles, he's compromised more than any president in recent memory...and he's done so in the face of some of the most hideous and obstinate opposition rhetoric flying at him from all directions.

I was going to call your first point insane, but I'm glad I saved that for this one. Obama has governed in the most unabashedly partisan way possible. Worse still, he promised the exact opposite. Do I really need to repost some of his Republican-bashing quotes over the last two years? Do I really need to run down how healthcare played out. Do we really need to get into the Deem and Pass (or "demon pass") strategy.

On what has he compromised? The Bush tax cuts? Yeah, guess what...he had no choice. It was that or watch the electorate explode in anger, not to mention the economy tanking. He sure didn't compromise on healthcare. Or stimulus. Or spending. Or...anything whatsoever.

I must say I'm surprised. You strike me as an intelligent guy with whom I happen to strongly disagree. But this is nuts. Obama keeps telling you he's transparent, post-partisan, competent, pro-business, strong on defense and for a strong and respected America....and you believe him. Meanwhile he's governed in completely the opposite way. His admin is so secretive he makes Bush look like a gossip queen. He's hyper-partisan, grossly incompetent, anti-business, exceptionally weak on defense and for a weakened America abroad. It's like some kind of freaking Newspeak delusion.
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post #18 of 41
BR, the Bush and Obama policies can be said to be "objectively different" but it certainly looks like the outcome is exactly the same. This was always a complicated issue. The left's problem (imo) is that they always portrayed Bush as having gone this way because it was the easiest course of action.

That played into their fictional narrative of Bush being some kind of warmongering dictator, who needed to be removed from office so a Democrat could right the wrongs being done here.

It's a ridiculously one-sided narrative that was only useful in mobilizing people to vote for a candidate. Gitmo was in the news everyday during the last year of the Bush presidency. All that's being pointed out here is that now that Obama's in charge, the issues of wrongful detention and inhumane treatment of prisoners are remarkably less newsworthy.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #19 of 41
This protest happened on the streets of Fresno yesterday.



Oh wait of course it didn't.

Hypocrites!
post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Where's the outrage?

Obama has ordered the restarting of military tribunals. After announcing in January 2009 that he was going to close Gitmo, there is no such closing in sight. He has also reinstated the same military tribunals that he and the Democrats railed against.

To me, this is the right decision. I've always believed this is the appropriate way to try terrorists captured in battle. But, I find it curious. Where are threads calling this immoral? Where are the liberal editorials slamming such trials as un-American? I thought we had to treat our enemies under the "rule of law?" I thought they deserved criminal trials? What, no screaming threads on AI accusing Obama of shredding the Constitution? No one calling him a war criminal? Let me guess...it's the GOP's fault because they cut off funding for transferring prisoners back to the U.S.?

So, same actions. But, Bush=war criminal. Obama=measured pragmatist doing what's right for the nation.

Got it.

I agree with you it was the right decision to restart Gitmo.Let them rot in there if they committed wrong doings against the government let them be tried by a military court not a civilian one.One for Obama!
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I agree with you it was the right decision to restart Gitmo.Let them rot in there if they committed wrong doings against the government let them be tried by a military court not a civilian one.One for Obama!

if they is rottin in ther tho it mite mak fings a bit smellee - cudbe a hijean ishoo...

I fink it wud be betta to jus shute them reeeleey

Jus sain...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

This protest happened on the streets of Fresno yesterday.



Oh wait of course it didn't.

Hypocrites!

Yeah Bastards!! Pinko fag SCUM!!!

This is the sort of thing that led to COMMUNISM in those barabaric old Europe crapholes...

Round up these fags NOW!!!!!!!!



Edit - just saw one of those wankers had a PEACE ON EARTH sign - wtf??????????? SCUM!!! SHOOT THEM NOW - it's tough love....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah Bastards!! Pinko fag SCUM!!!

This is the sort of thing that led to COMMUNISM in those barabaric old Europe crapholes...

Round up these fags NOW!!!!!!!!



Edit - just saw one of those wankers had a PEACE ON EARTH sign - wtf??????????? SCUM!!! SHOOT THEM NOW - it's tough love....

Yea that's exactly what I'm saying but not saying that at all.

Funny how people drop their convictions based on how much they like the politics of the person in office. Some of us were ahead of the curve and tuned them out long ago.
post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea that's exactly what I'm saying but not saying that at all.

Funny how people drop their convictions based on how much they like the politics of the person in office. Some of us were ahead of the curve and tuned them out long ago.

ok right...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah Bastards!! Pinko fag SCUM!!!

This is the sort of thing that led to COMMUNISM in those barabaric old Europe crapholes...

Round up these fags NOW!!!!!!!!



Edit - just saw one of those wankers had a PEACE ON EARTH sign - wtf??????????? SCUM!!! SHOOT THEM NOW - it's tough love....

Why resort to such caricature rather than engaging real people?

Do you become more right when arguing against self-created nonsense?

Is it all just to help obscure the hypocrisy?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why resort to such caricature rather than engaging real people?

Do you become more right when arguing against self-created nonsense?

Is it all just to help obscure the hypocrisy?

I'd love to engage some real people....I am just amusing myself until some turn up.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Where's the outrage?

Obama has ordered the restarting of military tribunals. After announcing in January 2009 that he was going to close Gitmo, there is no such closing in sight. He has also reinstated the same military tribunals that he and the Democrats railed against.

To me, this is the right decision. I've always believed this is the appropriate way to try terrorists captured in battle. But, I find it curious. Where are threads calling this immoral? Where are the liberal editorials slamming such trials as un-American? I thought we had to treat our enemies under the "rule of law?" I thought they deserved criminal trials? What, no screaming threads on AI accusing Obama of shredding the Constitution? No one calling him a war criminal? Let me guess...it's the GOP's fault because they cut off funding for transferring prisoners back to the U.S.?

So, same actions. But, Bush=war criminal. Obama=measured pragmatist doing what's right for the nation.

Got it.

Bullbiscuits. You are so addicted to the arbitrary, divisive, artificial red team-blue team distraction. Bush = war criminal, Obama = war criminal. BushCo is the "heads", ObamaCo is the "tails", of the same coin. A counterfeit coin.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #28 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Bullbiscuits. You are so addicted to the arbitrary, divisive, artificial red team-blue team distraction. Bush = war criminal, Obama = war criminal. BushCo is the "heads", ObamaCo is the "tails", of the same coin. A counterfeit coin.

I'm addicted to nothing with possible exception of caffeine. Now, I don't know why I am surprised by your view that Obama and Bush (and all presidents since...Eisenhower?) were installed by the military-industrial complex and are obsessed with global domination, enriching their corporate cronies, etc. But I do think this: If you're not relatively pleased with the most Left-wing, Secular-Progressive president we've ever had (perhaps some exceptions...both Roosevelts, Wilson?), then I have to recommend you reevaluate your perspective. Obama has a fundamentally different world view than Bush or most other presidents. To call him one in the same is just puzzling.
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post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

If you're not relatively pleased with the most Left-wing, Secular-Progressive president we've ever had (perhaps some exceptions...both Roosevelts, Wilson?), then I have to recommend you reevaluate your perspective.

It's just clinically insane.

Because you are extreme-right and you hate him that makes him extreme-left? It's utter madness and a sad indictment of the current state of the electorate.

You just cannot conceive in your binary black and white world that that someone you despise might not necessarily be the opposite of what you define yourself by.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's just clinically insane.

Because you are extreme-right and you hate him that makes him extreme-left? It's utter madness and a sad indictment of the current state of the electorate.

You just cannot conceive in your binary black and white world that that someone you despise might not necessarily be the opposite of what you define yourself by.


No one in this thread used "extreme-left" until you just did.
post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

No one in this tread used "extreme-left" until you just did.

No, they used 'most left-wing'.

If this is the most left-wing ever and it is not extreme what's the problem?

Or is it that you - as a representative of a certain type of American - object to LEFT in any form, extreme, mild or hardly-left-at all.

Is it perhaps then that it is ANYTHING OTHER THAN RIGHT that is the problem.

Bit like Henry Ford's "You can have any colour as long as it's black" - but like US 'democracy' too in fact....
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post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, they used 'most left-wing'.

If this is the most left-wing ever and it is not extreme what's the problem?

Or is it that you - as a representative of a certain type of American - object to LEFT in any form, extreme, mild or hardly-left-at all.

Is it perhaps then that it is ANYTHING OTHER THAN RIGHT that is the problem.

Bit like Henry Ford's "You can have any colour as long as it's black" - but like US 'democracy' too in fact....

I know you wont be able to understand this but saying Obama is the most left president is not the same as saying he is extreme left. Certainly the extreme for presidents in the sense that he's on the outside of the group but that's not saying he's extreme left for the country.

But you're a troll and putting words in peoples' mouths so can argue straw men.
post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I know you wont be able to understand this but saying Obama is the most left president is not the same as saying he is extreme left. Certainly the extreme for presidents but that's not saying he's extreme left [i]for the country[i].

But you're a troll and putting words in peoples' mouths so can argue straw men.

Ok...so he's not extreme.

Again...what's the problem?

What is he then? Mild-left? Centre-Left? A little left of Right?

You seem to believe that only 'Right' can be President - the irony is of course that he is fairly Right-wing actually for any objective observer but we'd better not go there - it's confusing enough for some as it is.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok...so he's not extreme.

Again...what's the problem?

What is he then? Mild-left? Centre-Left? A little left of Right?

You seem to believe that only 'Right' can be President - the irony is of course that he is fairly Right-wing actually for any objective observer but we'd better not go there - it's confusing enough for some as it is.

I didn't start this line of discussion so go ask SDW2001. Remember him? The one you called clinically insane.

Personally I'd like a president that's socially liberal and fiscally conservative. That's never going to happen.
post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I didn't start this line of discussion so go ask SDW2001. Remember him? The one you called clinically insane.

Personally I'd like a president that's socially liberal and fiscally conservative. That's never going to happen.

I said 'it's' clinically insane not 'you're' clinically insane.

Socially Liberal seems fine but there is always so much opposition...it's like it's almost a taboo thing...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #36 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's just clinically insane.

Because you are extreme-right and you hate him that makes him extreme-left? It's utter madness and a sad indictment of the current state of the electorate.

You just cannot conceive in your binary black and white world that that someone you despise might not necessarily be the opposite of what you define yourself by.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I said 'it's' clinically insane not 'you're' clinically insane.

Socially Liberal seems fine but there is always so much opposition...it's like it's almost a taboo thing...


I don't hate him. Let's get that straight. I do completely disagree with his policies and positions on issues. I do think he's a lousy president who is doing a lot of damage this country. Secondly, can you name a president more Left than Obama? I never claimed he was a Left-wing extremist. You did that. What I do think is he is more Left than any other President save perhaps a few. He has a different worldview.
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post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm addicted to nothing with possible exception of caffeine. Now, I don't know why I am surprised by your view that Obama and Bush (and all presidents since...Eisenhower?) were installed by the military-industrial complex and are obsessed with global domination, enriching their corporate cronies, etc. But I do think this: If you're not relatively pleased with the most Left-wing, Secular-Progressive president we've ever had (perhaps some exceptions...both Roosevelts, Wilson?), then I have to recommend you reevaluate your perspective. Obama has a fundamentally different world view than Bush or most other presidents. To call him one in the same is just puzzling.

I am not quite sure where your "Obama is a lefty" notion comes from. The real "lefty" aspect of Obama is where he stands relative to where a large contingent of where Washington DC stands.. ie, so far to the right that they almost fall off the edge; the US political spectrum is offset well to the right of where the rest of the world stands.

What has Obama done that is so "lefty"? The guy who meets on a "daily basis" with the likes of Henry Kissinger (regarded all around the world as a war criminal, with good reason), and Zbigniew Brzezinski, Mr.Grand Chessboard! Obama expanded the mid-east wars, gave vast taxpayer handouts to bankers who ran the economy into the ground, introduced a "health care" plan that was crafted by the HMOs (eventually outlawing a "lack of insurance" to the extent of up to a $250,000 fine and up to 5 years in prison)... just for starters. What's "progressive" about Obama?
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #38 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't hate him. Let's get that straight. I do completely disagree with his policies and positions on issues. I do think he's a lousy president who is doing a lot of damage this country. Secondly, can you name a president more Left than Obama? I never claimed he was a Left-wing extremist. You did that. What I do think is he is more Left than any other President save perhaps a few. He has a different worldview.

I agree he is a lousy president and I agree he will do a lot of damage - just like Bush did.

I can't name a more left President because there ARE no Left Presidents/ America just does not do 'Left'. Which is my objection to your claim.

It's kind of like arguing who's the most right-wing in the Politburo. There probably is someone who is the most Right but then it is also possible to point to the fattest person in a group of anorexics.

But he doesn't have a different worldview - you yourself started this thread which shows he has the SAME worldview on the issue under discussion.

You know this and that's why you rightly point out the hypocrisy - but that is his real crime, not being a 'Leftie' but being a hypocrite by paying lip-service to Left policies when he does not believe in them.

So all you can really accuse him of is being a hypocrite - and what politician isn't?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #39 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I am not quite sure where your "Obama is a lefty" notion comes from. The real "lefty" aspect of Obama is where he stands relative to where a large contingent of where Washington DC stands.. ie, so far to the right that they almost fall off the edge; the US political spectrum is offset well to the right of where the rest of the world stands.

I agree the U.S is right of where much of the world stands. Much of the world is also moving more rightwards as they realize they're running out of other people's money.

Quote:

What has Obama done that is so "lefty"?

Healthcare. Trillion-dollar quasi- Keynesian stimulus. Anti-business regulation and policies. Moratorium on offshore drilling. You have to be kidding.

Quote:

The guy who meets on a "daily basis" with the likes of Henry Kissinger (regarded all around the world as a war criminal, with good reason), and Zbigniew Brzezinski, Mr.Grand Chessboard! Obama expanded the mid-east wars, gave vast taxpayer handouts to bankers who ran the economy into the ground, introduced a "health care" plan that was crafted by the HMOs (eventually outlawing a "lack of insurance" to the extent of up to a $250,000 fine and up to 5 years in prison)... just for starters. What's "progressive" about Obama?

Obama did not "expand" the ME wars. He's drawing down in Iraq according the previous admin's timetable. He proposed a very limited surge in Afghanistan, one with a time limit for withdrawal. He continued polices of bailouts that were certainly morally hazardous, but necessary to save the economy. There were no "hand outs." As for healthcare, he insisted on a massive new bureaucracy with the individual mandate--an virtual "living tax." Speaking of which, your figures on penalties are misleading. The individual fine is $700.

Arguing that Obama is not progressive is like arguing that soccer is not a sport. It's a useless exercise replete with subjective and relative judgements. Compare him to all past U.S Presidents. There's your answer.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #40 of 41
When are you guys going to get a clue that Obama is a conservative?
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