Originally Posted by BR
False equivalency is false.
Exactly as I predicted. "You see SDW, it's just NOT the same! Obama oh-so-reluctantly
made the decision after much pondering and after being forced by the nasty Congress. And he wants to change some stuff about it...he's working with the world to demonstrate our commitment to.....sounding really good but not changing anything."
Am I thrilled with this decision? No. If it comes down to release them, keep them with no trials, or have military trials...the last one is the lesser of all evils if Congress refuses to allow them to be tried in civilian courts.
If this was Bush, you would be flipping your lid. So would the majority of the media. The Left would go berserk.
I think the right wing is playing into Obama's pragmatism. They take advantage of his willingness to compromise and ability to make unpleasant decisions when faced with two bad choices. They should have shut down that fucking place 2 years ago, certainly. Though I wonder what the campaign ads would have been like against all the Democratic senators and reps who voted to pass that.
And I think Obama suffers from paralysis from analysis. He doesn't lead. He ponders and agonizes and then does something everyone
Shit situation. I don't like what's happening. But claiming Obama and Bush are equals here is bullshit.
You're right...Bush kept it open because he thought certain people belonged there and had no place in our criminal justice system. Obama's keeping it open because of political pressure. You're right...Obama is much worse in this case.
Originally Posted by Frank777
So now keeping Gitmo open is about pragmatism? Because when Bush was doing it, it wasn't described that way...
That would be my point. BR demonstrates the attitude and hypocrisy perfectly. He "doesn't like it." It "sucks." Obama has to choose between two "terrible choices." Oh, woe is me..the weight of the office. I do declare...I've got me a case of the vapors!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (literally), Bush was "violating human rights." He was "ripping to shreds that which we hold most dear...the right to a fair trial." Bush was doing something worse than Japanese internment!
Somehow I can't help but notice the rhetorical difference.
The idea that Gitmo's prisoners could be tried en masse in U.S. federal civilian courts has always been crazy.
No-one who's been paying attention could really think that would happen.
I think Holder did.
I'm not defending Gitmo, since I'm sure there are all kinds of innocent people being held over there. But there's a reason the whole situation's a mess. I think the U.S. will just end up handing those still there back to the Afghan government eventually, having paid a lot of money for that privilege and with some assurances that the most dangerous will be dealt with.
There are likely some innocent people. We've also released many, however.
Originally Posted by Fellowship
As one who voted for Bush for his first term but not his second then later voted for Obama for his first run for the White House I can report to you that as it regards this very issue that you raise with regard to Guantanamo I am not proud of the "leadership" of Bush or Obama.
With Obama I am even more outraged as he misled the public with this very specific subject when he ran for office with rhetoric which indicated he would make "changes" to close Guantanamo.
Obama failed to deliver. America can do better.
Thanks for the intellectual honesty, really. But how can we do "better" exactly on this issue. That's just a platitude.
The sad part is that this all seems to be yet more in a long line of events which seem to be a plan to destroy this country and what it used to stand for. I have no faith in any of our leaders.
You have the right to think this policy is "good" or the right thing to do...
I think that is really sad dude.
Whatever. What do you
want to do?
Originally Posted by segovius
To address Fellows specific point about lack of outrage at some blatant hypocrisy, I think that the reason is not too hard to find.
Obama promised change but turned out to be more of the same - and will turn out to be perhaps worse imo - so people might feel let down (or do they?) but they don't feel surprised. Simply because it IS more of the same.
I also don't think the whole 'change' thing was real and I don't think anyone really believed it - they just wanted it so bad they convinced themselves.
Apparently a lot of people believed it. Joke's on them. Or us.
As to Bush - he is one of those characters (like Palin) that is almost cartoon-like and as such is a pantomime villain that people can pin all their favourite 'evils' on.
I'm not saying he wasn't a moron but I gained some sort of respect for him (only a little) after the shoe-throwing incident and how he handled it as a person and a bit more respect (still only a little) every time I consider Obama.
Interesting and honest. Much appreciated.