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Xcode 4 available to all on Apple's Mac App Store for $4.99

post #1 of 95
Thread Starter 
Apple on Wednesday released Xcode 4 for free to its registered developers, while everyone else can purchase the development environment for Mac OS X and iOS from the Mac App Store for $4.99.

"Xcode 4 has been streamlined to help you write better apps," Apple said. "It has unified user interface design, coding, testing, and debugging all within a single window. The Xcode IDE analyzes the details of your project to identify mistakes in both syntax and logic, it can even help fix your code for you."

The release of Xcode 4 for $4.99 on the Mac App Store will allow non-registered developers to tinker with the development platform, or create their own Mac applications outside of the App Store. However, to submit a Mac or iOS application to the App Store still requires membership to the Mac or iOS Developer Program. Testing an iOS application on a mobile device also requires a developer subscription.

The Mac Developer Program was discounted a year ago to $99 per year. The price change remodeled Apple's Mac program after the wildly successful iPhone Developer Program.

Xcode 4 runs on Mac OS X Snow Leopard and includes the Xcode IDE, Instruments, iOS Simulator, and the latest Mac OS X and iOS SDKs. Features of Xcode 4, according to Apple, include:

Innovative tools to help you create great apps
Interface Builder is fully integrated as a design canvas within the Xcode IDE
The Assistant shows files related to what you're editing, such as the header, superclass, or controller
The Version editor shows a live source code comparison through Git or Subversion history
Live Issues display errors as you type, and Fix-it can correct the mistakes for you
Apple LLVM compiler now includes full support for C++, in addition to C and Objective-C
The new LLDB debugging engine is faster and more memory-efficient than GDB
Instruments adds System Trace and new iOS instruments including OpenGL ES

Streamlined interface that is faster and easier to use
Design your interface side by side with the backing source code
Create connections from your GUI design directly to the related source code
Use tabs to organize your workspace, or double-click to open files in a new window
Schemes let you customize exactly how your app will build, run, profile, and deploy
Debugging and console views slide in without disturbing your place in the editor
Professional editor keeps you focused on your code
Click the Jump Bar at the top of the editor to instantly go to another file
View message bubbles to see errors, warnings, and other issues right beside the code
Use the ribbon on the left of the editor to fold your code, or highlight scope
Embedded Apple LLVM technology finds and fixes bugs for you
Analyzer travels countless code paths looking for logical errors before they become bugs
Live Issues underlines coding mistakes as you type with no need to build first
Fix-it can confidently correct mistakes for you with just a keystroke
Code completion for C, C++, and Objective-C is incredibly fast and accurate
Instruments for visual performance analysis
Compare CPU, disk, memory, and OpenGL performance as graphical tracks over time
Identify performance bottlenecks then dive deep into the code to uncover the cause
Monitor your app directly, or sample the entire system, with very little overhead
post #2 of 95
5 finger gestures - hint*

post #3 of 95
Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).
post #4 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

I would suggest one of the following:

1) Take a C programming course at a university. Being able to bounce questions off an instructor and other peers is a good way to go. And, depending on the quality of the instructor, you might get far more insight than you would from just reading a book.

2) "C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie. http://www.amazon.com/Programming-La.../dp/0131103628

Actually, #2 might end up being your textbook for #1.
post #5 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbruni View Post

I would suggest one of the following:

1) Take a C programming course at a university. Being able to bounce questions off an instructor and other peers is a good way to go. And, depending on the quality of the instructor, you might get far more insight than you would from just reading a book.

2) "C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie. http://www.amazon.com/Programming-La.../dp/0131103628

Actually, #2 might end up being your textbook for #1.

Thanks -- is a book on generic C the best way to learn Objective C? Are there books that focus just on Objective C?
post #6 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Thanks -- is a book on generic C the best way to learn Objective C? Are there books that focus just on Objective C?

Objective-C is more or less just C with a smalltalk like interface for OOP. You NEED to understand how to program in C before you can learn Objective-C. That said, Apple has decent documentation on their Objective-C environment.
post #7 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

There is a really nice entry level ObjC/Cocoa book i like... its called "Beginning Mac Programming" by Isted. Its really nice and simple and explains programming concepts, and all its examples are in Xcode 3. It was a great beginners book in my opinion if you take it slowly and do all the examples... they build on top of each other through the book as you learn to do new things and add more features to the example programs.

its pretty cheap at amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Mac-.../dp/1934356514

you can use C code inside of ObjC, but they are not all that similar, and you do not really need to learn C first.
post #8 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/navigation/
post #9 of 95
Does anyone know if you can update xcode 4 via the mac app store if you got it via the developer portal? I would love to update it via the mac app store instead of hunting down a new download on the developer portal on apples site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple on Wednesday released Xcode 4 for free to its registered developers, while everyone else can purchase the development environment for Mac OS X and iOS from the Mac App Store for $4.99.

"Xcode 4 has been streamlined to help you write better apps," Apple said. "It has unified user interface design, coding, testing, and debugging all within a single window. The Xcode IDE analyzes the details of your project to identify mistakes in both syntax and logic, it can even help fix your code for you."

The release of Xcode 4 for $4.99 on the Mac App Store will allow non-registered developers to tinker with the development platform, or create their own Mac applications outside of the App Store. However, to submit a Mac or iOS application to the App Store still requires membership to the Mac or iOS Developer Program. Testing an iOS application on a mobile device also requires a developer subscription.

The Mac Developer Program was discounted a year ago to $99 per year. The price change remodeled Apple's Mac program after the wildly successful iPhone Developer Program.

Xcode 4 runs on Mac OS X Snow Leopard and includes the Xcode IDE, Instruments, iOS Simulator, and the latest Mac OS X and iOS SDKs. Features of Xcode 4, according to Apple, include:

Innovative tools to help you create great apps
Interface Builder is fully integrated as a design canvas within the Xcode IDE
The Assistant shows files related to what you're editing, such as the header, superclass, or controller
The Version editor shows a live source code comparison through Git or Subversion history
Live Issues display errors as you type, and Fix-it can correct the mistakes for you
Apple LLVM compiler now includes full support for C++, in addition to C and Objective-C
The new LLDB debugging engine is faster and more memory-efficient than GDB
Instruments adds System Trace and new iOS instruments including OpenGL ES

Streamlined interface that is faster and easier to use
Design your interface side by side with the backing source code
Create connections from your GUI design directly to the related source code
Use tabs to organize your workspace, or double-click to open files in a new window
Schemes let you customize exactly how your app will build, run, profile, and deploy
Debugging and console views slide in without disturbing your place in the editor
Professional editor keeps you focused on your code
Click the Jump Bar at the top of the editor to instantly go to another file
View message bubbles to see errors, warnings, and other issues right beside the code
Use the ribbon on the left of the editor to fold your code, or highlight scope
Embedded Apple LLVM technology finds and fixes bugs for you
Analyzer travels countless code paths looking for logical errors before they become bugs
Live Issues underlines coding mistakes as you type with no need to build first
Fix-it can confidently correct mistakes for you with just a keystroke
Code completion for C, C++, and Objective-C is incredibly fast and accurate
Instruments for visual performance analysis
Compare CPU, disk, memory, and OpenGL performance as graphical tracks over time
Identify performance bottlenecks then dive deep into the code to uncover the cause
Monitor your app directly, or sample the entire system, with very little overhead
post #10 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

You need a C and Objective-C curriculum designed to work together before going onto advanced exploration of Cocoa.

Here:

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-3r.../dp/0672326663

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ob...ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/C-Programming-...9703936&sr=1-4

Kochan has been entrenched in both technologies for decades.

King's book brings C up to C99 which is required if you ever want to learn OpenCL.

A lot of time will be spent learning the Compiler Suites. Whether it's GCC or LLVM you need to read their documentation thoroughly--it's always updating and in the Mailing Lists for Developers is where the real meat lies.
post #11 of 95
That's just cheeky.

It will be interesting to see if it comes on the Lion DVD/Flash Drive.

It's a sign of the times. When Mac OS X 10.0 shipped Apple gave away all dev tools to encourage anyone to write for Apple's platforms. Now they don't need to, people will pay them to write for their platforms.


Still £2.99 for Xcode 4 is better than the £709.99 for Microsoft's equivalent Visual Studio.
post #12 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Testing an iOS application on a mobile device also requires a developer subscription.

The Mac Developer Program was discounted a year ago to $99 per year.

I hope they aren't offering a subscription outside of an app without also allowing the option to subscribe inside the app, tsk. Bundling emulators too.

I think $100 a year is a lot to ask just to test apps. How do they even come up with that price? If you jailbreak, you can get it for free and it feels so much better knowing you are free to develop for your own hardware without one day Apple stopping your license.

I could understand a fee for publishing to the store or even for support but not just to allow you to do hardware debugging.
post #13 of 95
Quote:
while everyone else can purchase the development environment for Mac OS X and iOS from the Mac App Store for $4.99.

No, "everyone else" cannot purchase it, because a large portion of the user base never upgraded to Snow Leopard due to the huge range of compatibility problems (see snowleopard.wikidot.com), and the App Store is Snow Leopard only.

That's why The App Store and a whole bunch of other things have been artificially limited to Snow Leopard; they're trying to accumulate enough reasons to force the holdouts to switch -- unfortunately, this mechanism abuses their customers.

The correct path would to have been to ensure compatibility for the huge range of applications and drivers they broke with Snow Leopard. When they chose not to do that, they hard-forked the user base. No, not a typo.
post #14 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbruni View Post

I would suggest one of the following:

1) Take a C programming course at a university. Being able to bounce questions off an instructor and other peers is a good way to go. And, depending on the quality of the instructor, you might get far more insight than you would from just reading a book.

2) "C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie. http://www.amazon.com/Programming-La.../dp/0131103628

Actually, #2 might end up being your textbook for #1.

Don't waste your money on "higher education", after 30 years of life I've determined education in the US exists solely for status and enriching endowments.
post #15 of 95
You can actually still get Xcode 4 for free, if you're a registered (for the free plan) member of the Apple developer portal.

Paying members will presumably get access to future betas, just like before Xcode 4 went final.

Edit: Scratch that. Free members are linked to the $4.99 app store download. Can't get it for free after all.
post #16 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

My suggestion is start with the free Stanford courses on iTunes U (http://itunes.apple.com/ca/instituti...rd/id384228265). You can take everything from Intro to Programming, all the way up to Developing Apps for the iOS.
post #17 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

This was helpful to me. http://www.cocoalab.com/BecomeAnXcoder.pdf

The author basically teaches you to write C code that uses some of Apples API's.

Apple's own tutorial on objective C was also very helpful. http://developer.apple.com/library/m...tiveC/ObjC.pdf
post #18 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

You need a C and Objective-C curriculum designed to work together before going onto advanced exploration of Cocoa.

Here:

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-3r.../dp/0672326663

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ob...ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/C-Programming-...9703936&sr=1-4

Kochan has been entrenched in both technologies for decades.

King's book brings C up to C99 which is required if you ever want to learn OpenCL.

A lot of time will be spent learning the Compiler Suites. Whether it's GCC or LLVM you need to read their documentation thoroughly--it's always updating and in the Mailing Lists for Developers is where the real meat lies.

Thanks all for the recommendations!
post #19 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschuur View Post

You can actually still get Xcode 4 for free, if you're a registered (for the free plan) member of the Apple developer portal.

Really? I logged in using my free credentials and It pointed me right to the App store to get X-code and not allowing it to download from the web interface.

ETA: It said explicitly that I had to be a iOS developer or Mac Os Developer member to download for free - I just have a free account.

I believe that you can still get X-Code 3 for free though...
post #20 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by revilre View Post

Don't waste your money on "higher education", after 30 years of life I've determined education in the US exists solely for status and enriching endowments.

This. If you're learning something you can get done with just a computer then the only real skill you need to develop is Googlefoo.
post #21 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschuur View Post

You can actually still get Xcode 4 for free, if you're a registered (for the free plan) member of the Apple developer portal.

Paying members will presumably get access to future betas, just like before Xcode 4 went final.

Edit: Scratch that. Free members are linked to the $4.99 app store download. Can't get it for free after all.

Unfortunately false.

"Hi Michael,
You must be an iOS or Mac Developer Program member to download Xcode 4 or you can purchase Xcode 4 from the Mac App Store."
post #22 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

No, "everyone else" cannot purchase it, because a large portion of the user base never upgraded to Snow Leopard due to the huge range of compatibility problems (see snowleopard.wikidot.com), and the App Store is Snow Leopard only.

That's why The App Store and a whole bunch of other things have been artificially limited to Snow Leopard; they're trying to accumulate enough reasons to force the holdouts to switch -- unfortunately, this mechanism abuses their customers.

The correct path would to have been to ensure compatibility for the huge range of applications and drivers they broke with Snow Leopard. When they chose not to do that, they hard-forked the user base. No, not a typo.

So some people (and it's not a majority percentage, quite the opposite) are on five + year old hardware and therefore can't download apps through the current version of the operating system that would work on modern hardware.

Any dev that's on five year+ old hardware is a failed dev.
post #23 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

Really? I logged in using my free credentials and It pointed me right to the App store to get X-code and not allowing it to download from the web interface.

Yeah, I was mislead by this 'Download Xcode 4 for free' screenshot. I'm a paying developer, and I just created a free account and you're correct, you can only get Xcode 3 for free.

Still, if you're serious about development, $5 is nothing, and if you're not $5 worth of serious, Xcode 3 works just fine to get a feel for what you're getting yourself into.
post #24 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

No, "everyone else" cannot purchase it, because a large portion of the user base never upgraded to Snow Leopard due to the huge range of compatibility problems (see snowleopard.wikidot.com), and the App Store is Snow Leopard only.

That's why The App Store and a whole bunch of other things have been artificially limited to Snow Leopard; they're trying to accumulate enough reasons to force the holdouts to switch -- unfortunately, this mechanism abuses their customers.

The correct path would to have been to ensure compatibility for the huge range of applications and drivers they broke with Snow Leopard. When they chose not to do that, they hard-forked the user base. No, not a typo.

Sorry, NO.

If you want a company that worships backward compatibility to the point of stagnation, you're looking for Microsoft.

Apple (under Jobs) is an innovative company. They create new tech and axe the old. Apple is skating to where the puck will be. Apple is moving forward and expects partners (providers of applications and hardware) to move forward as well.
post #25 of 95
Hi, has anyone in here tried to use OpenCV 2.2 with Xcode 4? I just got it running properly with Xcode 3.something, and would like to know whether it works before upgrading
post #26 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by IlFuria View Post

Hi, has anyone in here tried to use OpenCV 2.2 with Xcode 4? I just got it running properly with Xcode 3.something, and would like to know whether it works before upgrading

Learn Git or SVN.
post #27 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by revilre View Post

Don't waste your money on "higher education", after 30 years of life I've determined education in the US exists solely for status and enriching endowments.

Becoming an educated person is way overrated. You can learn all you need to know from Fox news. The louder opinion is always right.
post #28 of 95
I have a free account and have Xcode 3 installed on my mac mostly just to play with.

$4.99 is a deal by any measure for this development suite.

If you are getting it to learn, you will probably spend far more on books...
post #29 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I have written programs before, but always in higher level languages like BASIC (yuck) or, more recently, R (which is a statistical programming language derived from S, which in turn was based on, I think, LISP).

Have a look at pragmatic programmers:

iPhone SDK Development

Also iTunes U -- Stanford has a podcast series:

iPhone Application Development
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #30 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Can anybody recommend a resource for someone who wants to try programming for the Mac or iDevices using Objective-C, but who has never programmed in any flavor of C before?

I recommend Matt Neuburg's new book, Programming iOS 4:

http://oreilly.com/catalog/0636920010258/

I only had a scripting background, but the "Just Enough C" chapter helped greatly. Neuburg provides a basic introduction, and references to other materials, including what chapters to focus on in the original Kernighan/Ritchie C book.

As for the rest of Programming iOS 4, I think it is now the most comprehensive third-party book available for beginners.
post #31 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

No, "everyone else" cannot purchase it, because a large portion of the user base never upgraded to Snow Leopard due to the huge range of compatibility problems (see snowleopard.wikidot.com), and the App Store is Snow Leopard only.....

The really funny thing is I just went to that site you link to and not only does it look like something out of 1995 in terms of web design, it doesn't even display properly in the browser. The main page has a simple table that crawls out of the border and extends off the right hand side of the page! A two year old could write better CSS than that.

So your calling out Apple for bad software design or whatever, and your doing it by pointing to a super confusing, poorly laid out HTML mess that can't even display a simple HTML table browser correctly.

What a joke!
post #32 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschuur View Post

You can actually still get Xcode 4 for free, if you're a registered (for the free plan) member of the Apple developer portal.

Paying members will presumably get access to future betas, just like before Xcode 4 went final.

Edit: Scratch that. Free members are linked to the $4.99 app store download. Can't get it for free after all.

Yes, the post is wrong.

I've been a member for several years, downloaded the version 3 for free.
Free will no longer be the case...
post #33 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

That's just cheeky.

It will be interesting to see if it comes on the Lion DVD/Flash Drive.

It's a sign of the times. When Mac OS X 10.0 shipped Apple gave away all dev tools to encourage anyone to write for Apple's platforms. Now they don't need to, people will pay them to write for their platforms.


Still £2.99 for Xcode 4 is better than the £709.99 for Microsoft's equivalent Visual Studio.

It may portend things to come...

XCode 4, as a single integrated IDE, could be [rather easily] ported to another platform -- say Windows or Linux
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #34 of 95
Awesome! I'm going to purchase that tonight.
post #35 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschuur View Post

Yeah, I was mislead by this 'Download Xcode 4 for free' screenshot. I'm a paying developer, and I just created a free account and you're correct, you can only get Xcode 3 for free.

Still, if you're serious about development, $5 is nothing, and if you're not $5 worth of serious, Xcode 3 works just fine to get a feel for what you're getting yourself into.

I logged into my paid iOS Developer account ($99/yr) and am downloading x_code_4_and_ios_sdk_4.3__final.dmg
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #36 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Awesome! I'm going to purchase that tonight.

Don't click on "Purchases" after you do. The Mac App Store instantly crashes no matter what you try.

My download is nowhere near done yet (university Internet speeds suck), so once it's finished downloading XCode, we'll see if Purchases works again.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #37 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

So some people (and it's not a majority percentage, quite the opposite) are on five + year old hardware and therefore can't download apps through the current version of the operating system that would work on modern hardware.

Any dev that's on five year+ old hardware is a failed dev.

No, it has nothing to do with hardware. It has to do with software and drivers. Which is exactly what I said. As for the percentage, I didn't make any claims about it being the majority, either. As for your "failed dev" comment, that's just idiotic. Is your blood sugar low?

Thanks for posting. It's always amusing to be reminded that *anyone* can get on the Internet these days.
post #38 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Don't click on "Purchases" after you do. The Mac App Store instantly crashes no matter what you try.

My download is nowhere near done yet (university Internet speeds suck), so once it's finished downloading XCode, we'll see if Purchases works again.

You need to fix your App Store. Read the developer help forums.
post #39 of 95
.

A note to all you aspiring iPhone/iPad developers...

I have already reserved the iOS app name "dickbar"...
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #40 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

A two year old could write better CSS than that.

Attempting (very poorly) to discredit the facts in my statement by attacking the CSS that surrounds the data is completely ineffective. If you can't address the issue, you aren't worth paying any significant attention to. kthxbye.
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