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Failsafe nuclear power stations fail in Japan.

post #1 of 179
Thread Starter 
Nuclear power plants back up safety features failing with possibly devastating results, amidst an already massive and terrible disaster.

Who says nuclear power is safe?

Anybody?

From the Guardian-

Now an official from Japan's powerful trade ministry is telling news organisations that Tepco is "also considering releasing pressure" at the Fukushima Daini nuclear plant.

The government has also just ordered the evacuation of a three kilometre radius around Fukushima Daini plant following the previous evacuation order of a 10km radius around Fukushima Daiichi."

"Now there are reports from nuclear plant operator Tepco that the Fukushima Daini plant has lost cooling to three of its reactors.

It was one reactor in the Fukushima Daiichi plant that had been the cause for concern earlier so this news is certainly unwelcome.

According to Dow-Jones, Tepco says that the temperatures of its No 1 and No 2 reactors at its Fukushima Daini nuclear power station are rising, and it has lost control over pressure within the reactors.

Fukushima Daini station is the second nuclear power plant the company has in Fukushima prefecture in northeastern Japan, where the troubled Fukushima Daiichi plant is located.

10.34pm GMT: The damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor has already been leaking radiation outside the plant, confirms Japan's nuclear safety agency and the operator, the Tokyo Electric Power company."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-live-coverage
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post #2 of 179
For fuck's sake!

There was a fucking earthquake rated at 8.9 on the Richter scale (one of the biggest earthquakes recorded in history) whose epicenter was just north of where this plant is located. And it was followed by more than 50 aftershocks, many of them with a magnitude greater than 6.0.

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post #3 of 179
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

For fuck's sake!

There was a fucking earthquake rated at 8.9 on the Richter scale (one of the biggest earthquakes recorded in history) whose epicenter was just north of where this plant is located. And it was followed by more than 50 aftershocks, many of them with a magnitude greater than 6.0.

Yes it's terrible and so is the prospect of a nuclear disaster on top of it.

Let's see. We have you and most of the other members here all in favour of nuclear power and all sure it's safe, safe and more safe. So whilst this is a developing situation, are you and the other members here confident enough in nuclear power to say there's nothing to worry about here? Are you? Or are you too proud to back down?
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post #4 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes it's terrible and so is the prospect of a nuclear disaster on top of it.

Let's see. We have you and most of the other members here all in favour of nuclear power and all sure it's safe, safe and more safe. So whilst this is a developing situation, are you and the other members here confident enough in nuclear power to say there's nothing to worry about here? Are you? Or are you too proud to back down?

Seriously?!

This is just amazing. No really...quite amazing.

If I give you a few bucks would you promise to go and spend it to buy some perspective?

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post #5 of 179
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Seriously?!

This is just amazing. No really...quite amazing.

If I give you a few bucks would you promise to go and spend it to buy some perspective?

If this is contained in a few days you and the rest of them will carry on like nothing happened. So maybe a "I'm not sure if nuclear power is as safe as I thought it was at the moment" is all we'll get here. Then again, we might just get "fuck you, I'm not answering that".
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post #6 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If this is contained in a few days you and the rest of them will carry on like nothing happened. So maybe a "I'm not sure if nuclear power is as safe as I thought it was at the moment" is all we'll get here.

What someone might say is "I'm not sure if nuclear power is as safe as I thought when an 8.9 magnitude earthquake strikes nearby."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Then again, we might just get "fuck you, I'm not answering that".

What you ought to get as a response is: Get some perspective.

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post #7 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If this is contained in a few days you and the rest of them will carry on like nothing happened. So maybe a "I'm not sure if nuclear power is as safe as I thought it was at the moment" is all we'll get here. Then again, we might just get "fuck you, I'm not answering that".

Oil explodes, coal chokes the atmosphere, wave harnessing kills fish, windmills kill birds, solar towers fry plant life, dams displace people.

Everything has problems. Yours is a lack of perspective.

Originally posted by Marvin

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post #8 of 179
MJ, prepare to be shocked. I agree with you 100% here.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #9 of 179
Thread Starter 
No surprises here then. Just one word for you, and it's not "meltdown" it's "repent".

This just in-

"5.30am: @tukky_nt RT @Reuters: FLASH: #Japan nuclear authorities say high possibility of meltdown at Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 reactor - Jiji. RT @TomokoHosaka: Japan nuclear safety commission official says meltdown at nuclear power plant possible, AP confirms. #earthquake #jpquake

5.20am: Kyodo news has just reported that the Fukushima nuclear plant might be experiencing nuclear meltdown.
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...-live-coverage
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post #10 of 179
http://www.adrianforbass.com/pages/p...clear_pbmr.htm

There exists nuclear technology that is literally meltdown proof. When the temperature rises, neutron production is slowed and the reaction rate decreases. The temperature is self-regulating. To decry all nuclear power because of a potential meltdown of a nearly 40 year old power plant is utterly insane.

Don't be an ignorant luddite.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #11 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

http://www.adrianforbass.com/pages/p...clear_pbmr.htm

There exists nuclear technology that is literally meltdown proof. When the temperature rises, neutron production is slowed and the reaction rate decreases. The temperature is self-regulating. To decry all nuclear power because of a potential meltdown of a nearly 40 year old power plant is utterly insane.

Well said.

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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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post #12 of 179
Thanks.

Also, saw this on another site and it sums up my feelings beautifully:

Quote:
Oh but have a huge oil spill in the gulf, poison thousands of people, kill millions of animals, and a couple months later we're ok with drilling again. Have one faulty (and frankly poorly made) Soviet reactor melt down and suddenly nuclear power is the permanent boogieman.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #13 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If this is contained in a few days you and the rest of them will carry on like nothing happened. So maybe a "I'm not sure if nuclear power is as safe as I thought it was at the moment" is all we'll get here. Then again, we might just get "fuck you, I'm not answering that".

You come off as rooting for the meltdown in your posts Yes, nuclear power has risks. I pray that this does not go all the way. It is amazing to me that a plant that generates power cannot it's reactors due to a loss of power. However, when there is a natural disaster of that magnitude it is surprising to me that any of them were still functioning. They are very well built facilities.

I will echo the sentiment of others. Perspective is needed. Hope for the good outcome, I think you do.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #14 of 179
it is not looking good. The government is also not announcing anything (except what a good job they are doing) and the local media slowly losing patience.

The #1 building is no longer there; the walls and roof have blown off. Radiation data was to be retrieved at 6:00 pm local time, it's now 7:45 and nothing...

IAEA is requesting information and not getting it.

Russia has now complained.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #15 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Nuclear power plants back up safety features failing with possibly devastating results, amidst an already massive and terrible disaster.

Who says nuclear power is safe?

Anybody?

From the Guardian-

Now an official from Japan's powerful trade ministry is telling news organisations that Tepco is "also considering releasing pressure" at the Fukushima Daini nuclear plant.

The government has also just ordered the evacuation of a three kilometre radius around Fukushima Daini plant following the previous evacuation order of a 10km radius around Fukushima Daiichi."

"Now there are reports from nuclear plant operator Tepco that the Fukushima Daini plant has lost cooling to three of its reactors.

It was one reactor in the Fukushima Daiichi plant that had been the cause for concern earlier so this news is certainly unwelcome.

According to Dow-Jones, Tepco says that the temperatures of its No 1 and No 2 reactors at its Fukushima Daini nuclear power station are rising, and it has lost control over pressure within the reactors.

Fukushima Daini station is the second nuclear power plant the company has in Fukushima prefecture in northeastern Japan, where the troubled Fukushima Daiichi plant is located.

10.34pm GMT: The damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor has already been leaking radiation outside the plant, confirms Japan's nuclear safety agency and the operator, the Tokyo Electric Power company."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-live-coverage

Hopefully they can stop this leakage of radiation before a horrific disaster happens and people will not get contaminated with radiation.My wife neice lives right near there.
post #16 of 179
Just announced the inner container is intact and there is not a major leak.

Hope that is correct and remains that way.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #17 of 179
A quick calculation from publically available data, reveals that this earthquake released the equivalent energy of 1660 Hiroshima Nuclear explosions.

Its a testament to Japanese engineering, that the worst that has happened so far at this plant, is that a concrete housing has exploded under steam pressure.

Perspective, please.
post #18 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes it's terrible and so is the prospect of a nuclear disaster on top of it.

Let's see. We have you and most of the other members here all in favour of nuclear power and all sure it's safe, safe and more safe. So whilst this is a developing situation, are you and the other members here confident enough in nuclear power to say there's nothing to worry about here? Are you? Or are you too proud to back down?

I echo MJ's comments. There was an unprecedented earthquake just north of the site. There was an oil refinery that exploded. Maybe she should pronounce that "unsafe" as well. Oh, and one more thing: You using this tragedy to try and support your apparent anti-nuclear stance is disgusting.
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post #19 of 179
A salient fact: the structure of the plant was designed to withstand a 7.0 Richter scale earthquake, NOT a 9.0 Richter scale earthquake that just happened. Not surprised there was so much damage to the plant.

Besides, this plant was probably within a decade of being decommissioned anyway--this earthquake will accelerate that process to today. They should replace that plant with a truly modern nuclear power plant with a really strong building structural design and uses the new liquid fluroride thorium reactor (LFTR) design.

Why LFTR? Unlike today's water-cooled uranium-fueled reactors, LFTR offer these advantages:

1) LFTR's will safely shut down on its own even if the coolant is cut off--effectively meltdown proof.
2) LFTR's don't need the big cooling towers or access to a big body of water like water-cooled uranium-fueled reactors do. This means far smaller plant size and way lower construction costs.
3) LFTR's use thorium as its fissile fuel, which is 200 times more abundant than uranium, the waste is very difficult to process into fissile material for nuclear weapons, and the waste itself has a tiny fraction of the radioactive half-life of spent uranium fuel rods--which means much easier storage of thorium reactor waste.

Small wonder why India and China are aggressively purusing thorium reactor technology.
post #20 of 179
Thread Starter 
A reading of comments around the web reflect some of the comments here. Many posters are being accused of exploiting the situation and not caring about the Japanese people. Greenpeace is also being targeted in the same way. I for one would like to thank Greenpeace and wish them continued success.

Here's some useful information for anyone who ever experiences this kind of preventable tragedy-

"“Fukushima remains under threat of a serious reactor meltdown; this would potentially create an iodine cloud, which could spread high radiation levels to both the environment and population over many tens of kilometres. By simply communicating to local populations the importance of staying indoors, the government could limit potential radiation doses from this cloud by a factor 2 to 5.” *
~ http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...lear-disaster/
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post #21 of 179
Hands, what just happened off of the coast of Japan was equivalent to 1660 Hiroshima bombs - albeit they were pretty small bombs, but even by the standard of the biggest atom bom ever exploded by man - the tsar bomba - this earthquake was equivalent to SEVEN of those all at once.

There is no contingency planning for any technology, or structure that can withstand that. There is only a problem at this nuclear plant, not because the earthquake destroyed it, but because the tsunami knocked out the backup diesel generators which powered the cooling pumps. In the unlikely event that the reactor does melt down, (I hear they've cooled it off by flooding the chambers with sea water) - it isn't going to be a chernobyl like event, but a 'melting' into the earth of nasty stuff. That is bad, no doubt, but this is not a chernobyl by any metric.

Is it realistic to make a contingency plan for a 10m high wave with a wavelength of 100's of metres, travelling at 500 mph?

There are some things we have to accept as a society, that we just cannot control, legislate against, and if we want our modern society, we have to accept that disasters will happen from time to time. This might include nuclear accidents.

Infact, this event has probably just created a giant advert FOR modern nuclear power. This has unwittingly demonstrated that even in your worst nightmare of scenarios, that modern nuclear reactors are inherintly safe, if designed properly.

Please get a broader perspective Hands, most of us all want a better, safer, cleaner, green world, thats why some of us advocate nuclear power, as opposed to burning fossil fuels. The alternative is to regress 500 years, and live in caves. I love solar farms, wind farms, tidal power, hydroelectricity etc - I wish everything was generated like this, but it takes time, and there is an energy requirement today. I'd love to spend the worlds arms budget on solar farms...but it just isn't going to happen realistically.

Just out of interest, what do you think of ITER - fusion reaction generated power?
post #22 of 179
The level of agreement on this thread is nice to see. It makes me think back to a comment I made back when President Obama was proposing the stimulus. I said if he had proposed a trillion dollars worth of nuclear plants being built, that he would have no problem being reelected be it from Republicand or Democrats and from what I see in this thread, that would have been true based on the sentiments.

A few bits to add....

First the quake has been upgraded to a 9.0 magitude quake.
Regardless of what happens in Japan, the plant clearly went well beyond the design specifications. 9.0 level quakes are of the level you make up when God is ending the world or for a Hollywood movie hyperbole dialog. This was real life.

Second, some people are simply never satisfied as show by the fact that we have several solar installations attempting to come online and instead they are being held up with suit after suit here in California.


The power has to come from somewhere. Tell President Obama to announce that the next three trillion of deficit spending we are going to engage in as a nation is going to the construction of nuclear power plants and I would give him MY vote today.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

http://www.adrianforbass.com/pages/p...clear_pbmr.htm

There exists nuclear technology that is literally meltdown proof. When the temperature rises, neutron production is slowed and the reaction rate decreases. The temperature is self-regulating. To decry all nuclear power because of a potential meltdown of a nearly 40 year old power plant is utterly insane.

Don't be an ignorant luddite.

Problem:

Firstly, the public's reticence to pay attention to science/reality, and accompanying willingness to buy into mythology (especially since the latter is currently promoted eagerly at the expense of the former).

No matter how safe a nuclear power plant might be... try selling the idea of building modern safe nuclear power plants: the local opposition to any new nuclear power station, regardless of how safe/infallible/leakproof it may be would be such that it would take decades of political effort to get the ground broken, let alone start generating electricity. Then the lawsuits start rolling in. The protests and demonstrations...

The PR that followed the Windscale (UK) and 3 Mile Island incidents, and the Chernobyl catastrophe have trashed the potential promise of nuclear power in the eyes of the majority. The current Japanese power station problems could be the final nail in the coffin. The NIMBY club will have many new members.

When was the most recent nuclear power station built in the US?
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post #24 of 179
This quake was so large that they are claiming it shifted the entire earth on it's axis by 4 inches and you are talking about how the nuclear reactors are unsafe because they were damaged by this. Hands, perspective is a good thing.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #25 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Problem:

Firstly, the public's reticence to pay attention to science/reality, and accompanying willingness to buy into mythology (especially since the latter is currently promoted eagerly at the expense of the former).

No matter how safe a nuclear power plant might be... try selling the idea of building modern safe nuclear power plants: the local opposition to any new nuclear power station, regardless of how safe/infallible/leakproof it may be would be such that it would take decades of political effort to get the ground broken, let alone start generating electricity. Then the lawsuits start rolling in. The protests and demonstrations...

The PR that followed the Windscale (UK) and 3 Mile Island incidents, and the Chernobyl catastrophe have trashed the potential promise of nuclear power in the eyes of the majority. The current Japanese power station problems could be the final nail in the coffin. The NIMBY club will have many new members.

When was the most recent nuclear power station built in the US?

That is a real problem. The question is, how does one overcome this problem?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #26 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You come off as rooting for the meltdown in your posts Yes, nuclear power has risks. I pray that this does not go all the way. It is amazing to me that a plant that generates power cannot it's reactors due to a loss of power. However, when there is a natural disaster of that magnitude it is surprising to me that any of them were still functioning. They are very well built facilities.

I will echo the sentiment of others. Perspective is needed. Hope for the good outcome, I think you do.

The reactors' emergency/back up generators lost power because they were flooded by the tsunami. Someone on the design team didn't do their homework....
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post #27 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The reactors' emergency/back up generators lost power because they were flooded by the tsunami. Someone on the design team didn't do their homework....

FFS! get some perspective .

If this was a richter 9.0 quake, that means that it was the equivalent of ~2250 Hiroshima Atom bombs going off simultaneously.

The diesel generators were flooded. Can you plan for a 10m high wall of water (these are not like normal waves) travelling at 500mph?

There was a battery backup for the diesel generators. This failed when the batteries went flat.

You just cant mitigate these kinds of events, however much your homework.

We have to accept there will be once in a lifetime events, once in our lifetimes.
post #28 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

That is a real problem. The question is, how does one overcome this problem?

Show them that a Japanese reactor designed in the 70's withstood a richter 9.0 earthquake, a 10m high tsumani, and all that happened was that a concrete building fell down because of steam pressure.

Then turn off their lights.

They'll sign up quick enough.
post #29 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The reactors' emergency/back up generators lost power because they were flooded by the tsunami. Someone on the design team didn't do their homework....

So true Sammi,

Dear Design Team,

The entire coast shifted 8 ft.
The axis of the entire planet has been altered.
The design spec was for a 7.0 quake and this one was a 9.0 quake.
It was the most powerful quake recorded in history for the island.
The rupture in the earth's crust was 250 miles long and 100 miles wide.
Techtonic plates moved over 50 feet.
The tsunami wave was 30 ft tall.

You are failures because you didn't design something stronger than the planet.

Thanks,
People who would bitch if we went and turned off all the lights and lived in caves because even the caves would have failed in this quake.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #30 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So true Sammi,

Dear Design Team,

The entire coast shifted 8 ft.
The axis of the entire planet has been altered.
The design spec was for a 7.0 quake and this one was a 9.0 quake.
It was the most powerful quake recorded in history for the island.
The rupture in the earth's crust was 250 miles long and 100 miles wide.
Techtonic plates moved over 50 feet.
The tsunami wave was 30 ft tall.

You are failures because you didn't design something stronger than the planet.

Thanks,
People who would bitch if we went and turned off all the lights and lived in caves because even the caves would have failed in this quake.

After 10 years of irreconsilable differences at Apple Outsider I think we've finally resolved who lives in the real world, and those who reside in cloud cuckoo land.
post #31 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The reactors' emergency/back up generators lost power because they were flooded by the tsunami. Someone on the design team didn't do their homework....

The are some things you just cannot account for. As marcuk aptly asked: "Is it realistic to make a contingency plan for a 10m high wave with a wavelength of 100's of metres, travelling at 500 mph?" How about a direct meteor strike? A volcanic eruption directly under the facility? What should they be designing for? What should it be designed to withstand?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #32 of 179
Thread Starter 
People are only human and mistakes happen, therefore limiting risk excludes nuclear. Nuclear power is diabolical and will lead to worse still. Politician's can go fuck themselves. My planet is worth more than your stupidity.
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post #33 of 179
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Hands, what just happened off of the coast of Japan was equivalent to 1660 Hiroshima bombs - albeit they were pretty small bombs, but even by the standard of the biggest atom bom ever exploded by man - the tsar bomba - this earthquake was equivalent to SEVEN of those all at once.

There is no contingency planning for any technology, or structure that can withstand that. There is only a problem at this nuclear plant, not because the earthquake destroyed it, but because the tsunami knocked out the backup diesel generators which powered the cooling pumps. In the unlikely event that the reactor does melt down, (I hear they've cooled it off by flooding the chambers with sea water) - it isn't going to be a chernobyl like event, but a 'melting' into the earth of nasty stuff. That is bad, no doubt, but this is not a chernobyl by any metric.

Is it realistic to make a contingency plan for a 10m high wave with a wavelength of 100's of metres, travelling at 500 mph?

There are some things we have to accept as a society, that we just cannot control, legislate against, and if we want our modern society, we have to accept that disasters will happen from time to time. This might include nuclear accidents.

Infact, this event has probably just created a giant advert FOR modern nuclear power. This has unwittingly demonstrated that even in your worst nightmare of scenarios, that modern nuclear reactors are inherintly safe, if designed properly.

Please get a broader perspective Hands, most of us all want a better, safer, cleaner, green world, thats why some of us advocate nuclear power, as opposed to burning fossil fuels. The alternative is to regress 500 years, and live in caves. I love solar farms, wind farms, tidal power, hydroelectricity etc - I wish everything was generated like this, but it takes time, and there is an energy requirement today. I'd love to spend the worlds arms budget on solar farms...but it just isn't going to happen realistically.

Just out of interest, what do you think of ITER - fusion reaction generated power?

You want new thorium go for it just don't kill off more than you can chew.
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post #34 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

People are only human and mistakes happen, therefore limiting risk excludes nuclear. Nuclear power is diabolical and will lead to worse still. Politician's can go fuck themselves. My planet is worth more than your stupidity.

Nuclear BOMBS are diabolical. Nuclear Power is NOT.

Hands, chill a bit. The planet is still here after 1000's of nuclear BOMB explosions over the last 70 years - far worse than any meltdown.

The release of a bit of radioactive steam (with very short-half-life decay) is a drop in the ocean. Yes its bad, no one disagrees.

This event is a testament to the design safety of modern nuclear power. This wasn't even the most modern design of plant available.

If a Richter 9.0 earthquake and a 10m tsunami cant cause a serious problem - WHAT CAN?????

This PROVES beyond doubt nuclear reactors are SAFE. Consider all the reactors that automatically shut down as soon as they detected the quake. There was a problem with one of them - it got hit by a 'biblical flood'

Greenpeace and all the knee-jerk nuclear reactionaries, dont do themselves any favours here. It proves beyond doubt that your judgements, reasoning and goals on this are so far beyond the pale, that you regrettably make yourselves the laughing stock when you do have more reasoned judgements. And we know you do Hands.

We have almost unanimous verdict, that perspective is needed here - amongst people that have been 'mortal enemies' for 10+ years.

I agree with trumptman - and I cant stand that c*nt.
post #35 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You want new thorium go for it just don't kill off more than you can chew.

no one to the best of the available knowledge has been killed by this nuclear plant problem.

Its possible that 10,000 people from a single town have been killed/drowned, shall we ban houses? How many people drowned in their cars? shall we ban cars. How many people were killed from falling debris from skyscrapers? Shall we ban them too? How many people were killed when the oil refinery blew up? Shall we ban oil and gas?

You have to accept that there are dangers in life. Sometimes accidents happen.

However forget all this.

What is your solution?
post #36 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So true Sammi,

Dear Design Team,

The entire coast shifted 8 ft.
The axis of the entire planet has been altered.
The design spec was for a 7.0 quake and this one was a 9.0 quake.
It was the most powerful quake recorded in history for the island.
The rupture in the earth's crust was 250 miles long and 100 miles wide.
Techtonic plates moved over 50 feet.
The tsunami wave was 30 ft tall.

You are failures because you didn't design something stronger than the planet.

Thanks,
People who would bitch if we went and turned off all the lights and lived in caves because even the caves would have failed in this quake.

Holy crap! Just when you think you've heard it all, the ante is upped. Unbelievable. Yikes.

Japan (and the ocean surrounding) has a history of large and damaging earthquakes. The power company design team didn't allow for anything larger than a 7, when there is a known potential, and long and well documented history for quakes in the region to exceed 7.. and by a large margin?????!!!!!! ?????

That is what I call "not doing their homework properly".

Tsunami often accompany large quakes. The goddamned word is Japanese, for those who may not realize: "Harbor Wave".

So, how about placing the backup generators out of reach of the TSUNAMI THAT THE REACTOR DESIGNERS WOULD HAVE EXPECTED, AND BEEN AWARE OF, IN THE EVENT OF THE KIND OF EARTHQUAKES WHICH ARE A PART OF JAPANESE LIFE AND HISTORY?????????

That is what is called "not doing their homework properly.

How about a little Imagination? And Foresight? Prudence? Or is that too much to ask?

And of all people.. the Japanese should know about radiation after two of their cities (both of zero military value) were nuked 60+ years ago....



And as an afterthought: Is prudent design with safety in mind too expensive? Did the inclusion of such threaten the short term profits of the company contracted to undertake the work building the facility?

Had to ask.... profit is king.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #37 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The are some things you just cannot account for. As marcuk aptly asked: "Is it realistic to make a contingency plan for a 10m high wave with a wavelength of 100's of metres, travelling at 500 mph?" How about a direct meteor strike? A volcanic eruption directly under the facility? What should they be designing for? What should it be designed to withstand?

FYI: tsunamis only travel at 500mph in the open ocean. As soon as they encounter the continental slope and increasingly shallow waters, they slow down dramatically (and increase in height). By the time a tsunami hits the beach, its velocity is more on the scale of a regular ocean wind generated wave when it breaks... and nowhere near 500mph. The maximum recorded height of the tsunami that hit Japan was about 10m. For most areas, it was far less than this, and hit like a huge river, more like a speeded up version of the storm surge from Hurricane Katrina.

It should not have been too difficult to design a potentially dangerous facility like a nuclear power plant bearing in mind what should have been reasonably *expected* to occur within its life time.. such as a large damaging quake, and the accompanying tsunami.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #38 of 179
Thread Starter 
Marc. Im not willing to take the risk. I believecwe can and should do better. We are not animals we arexhuman we owe it to eachother and our beautiful planet not to destroy it. The consequences to the fragility of our wonderful earth should not be underestimated any more than it already has been.

I was reluctant to post this earlier in case it wasn't genuine. Now the Guardian is reporting the same-

"Reuters reports that the Fukushima nuclear plant has also lost the emergency cooling system at its No 3 reactor, according to the Japan Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency. This requires the facility to urgently secure a means to supply water to the reactor a Japanese official said"

The alternatives are not only possible they are neccesity. Fight to mske them happen.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #39 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

After 10 years of irreconsilable differences at Apple Outsider I think we've finally resolved who lives in the real world, and those who reside in cloud cuckoo land.

Now in the ultimate irony, watch Lundy honor your request due to Sammi reporting an insult from you to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Nuclear BOMBS are diabolical. Nuclear Power is NOT.

Hands, chill a bit. The planet is still here after 1000's of nuclear BOMB explosions over the last 70 years - far worse than any meltdown.

The release of a bit of radioactive steam (with very short-half-life decay) is a drop in the ocean. Yes its bad, no one disagrees.

This event is a testament to the design safety of modern nuclear power. This wasn't even the most modern design of plant available.

If a Richter 9.0 earthquake and a 10m tsunami cant cause a serious problem - WHAT CAN?????

This PROVES beyond doubt nuclear reactors are SAFE. Consider all the reactors that automatically shut down as soon as they detected the quake. There was a problem with one of them - it got hit by a 'biblical flood'

Greenpeace and all the knee-jerk nuclear reactionaries, dont do themselves any favours here. It proves beyond doubt that your judgements, reasoning and goals on this are so far beyond the pale, that you regrettably make yourselves the laughing stock when you do have more reasoned judgements. And we know you do Hands.

Well said.

Quote:
We have almost unanimous verdict, that perspective is needed here - amongst people that have been 'mortal enemies' for 10+ years.

I agree with trumptman - and I cant stand that c*nt.

You're not my mortal enemy nor is anyone who has ever posted on here, banned or otherwise. I'd buy you a beer tomorrow just so we could jaw over it. The second comes with a price though, you're putting out.

Also you didn't say couldn't stand me last night..


Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

no one to the best of the available knowledge has been killed by this nuclear plant problem.

Its possible that 10,000 people from a single town have been killed/drowned, shall we ban houses? How many people drowned in their cars? shall we ban cars. How many people were killed from falling debris from skyscrapers? Shall we ban them too? How many people were killed when the oil refinery blew up? Shall we ban oil and gas?

You have to accept that there are dangers in life. Sometimes accidents happen.

However forget all this.

What is your solution?

marc you make fantastic sense when leaving the realm of intentions and dealing with reality and trade-offs. If this were applied in other areas of political thought, I'm sure we'd have even more agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Holy crap! Just when you think you've heard it all, the ante is upped. Unbelievable. Yikes.

Japan (and the ocean surrounding) has a history of large and damaging earthquakes. The power company design team didn't allow for anything larger than a 7, when there is a known potential, and long and well documented history for quakes in the region to exceed 7.. and by a large margin?????!!!!!! ?????

That is what I call "not doing their homework properly".

Tsunami often accompany large quakes. The goddamned word is Japanese, for those who may not realize: "Harbor Wave".

So, how about placing the backup generators out of reach of the TSUNAMI THAT THE REACTOR DESIGNERS WOULD HAVE EXPECTED, AND BEEN AWARE OF, IN THE EVENT OF THE KIND OF EARTHQUAKES WHICH ARE A PART OF JAPANESE LIFE AND HISTORY?????????

That is what is called "not doing their homework properly.

How about a little Imagination? And Foresight? Prudence? Or is that too much to ask?

And of all people.. the Japanese should know about radiation after two of their cities (both of zero military value) were nuked 60+ years ago....



And as an afterthought: Is prudent design with safety in mind too expensive? Did the inclusion of such threaten the short term profits of the company contracted to undertake the work building the facility?

Had to ask.... profit is king.

As you note Sammi, no one has more experience and likely better designed attempts to deal with this than the Japanese. So when they couldn't deal with it, that simply means it couldn't be dealt with at all. The darn reactor has to assume some norms like the entire planet not disappearing from underneath it or the nature of water not changing, etc. This quake was historically unprecedented.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #40 of 179
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

This quake was so large that they are claiming it shifted the entire earth on it's axis by 4 inches and you are talking about how the nuclear reactors are unsafe because they were damaged by this. Hands, perspective is a good thing.

Let me thank you for trusting in me that this thread in no way was intended to rejoice in the suffering of the Japanese people because of my concerns about nuclear power.

Good luck convincing SDW though.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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