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Failsafe nuclear power stations fail in Japan. - Page 4

post #121 of 179
3/15/11 at 4:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

According the the Japanese government, the containment vessel has failed on one of the reactors and radiation is leaking. And we mustn't forget that this meltdown crisis was brought about by the failure of the power backup systems, rather than physical damage to the plant.

I'm all for replacing fossil fuel power stations with nukes (and renewables of course), but this is going to set everything back decades.

What's the solution here anyone? How to convince people?

Basically you can't. The vast majority of people have no background to understand science and engineering. Their political or religious bend has nothing to do it with it. The media sells on fear and what's to fear from a well designed and built nuclear plant?

It will take a long well executed PR campaign to make it possible. Who's going to do that?
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post #122 of 179
3/15/11 at 5:14am
TEPCO (the plant operator) is holding another press conference now. Almost all of these have turned intense with the media posing question after question and TEPCO doing their best to survive the onslaught. They don't always do too well and one member changed out finally; the new guy got pretty angry within three minutes and now is not participating at all, just sitting there flipping pages. Surreal. The other three guys have held several conference over the past days and they are showing the strain.

--
The new guy has now tried to end the meeting twice only to be cut off and have one of the other presenters continue. The others know that they have to explain and they are trying, but they don't always have the answers.

--- I repeat: surreal

 

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post #123 of 179
3/15/11 at 5:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It will take a long well executed PR campaign to make it possible. Who's going to do that?

Likely some business guy more interested in making a buck than anything else?

 

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post #124 of 179
3/15/11 at 5:27am
The meeting just ended after a fight.

TEPCO wanted to end and go away. The media claimed that they have no access to TEPCO outside of these conferences, unlike the nuclear safety agency, whose staff often hangs around after the meetings to answer questions.

 

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post #125 of 179
3/15/11 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Likely some business guy more interested in making a buck than anything else?

That's your bias view of the world.
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post #126 of 179
3/15/11 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

That's your bias view of the world.

No, he is probably right. It would likely have to be someone who is interested in making money and has money to burn to get there. It will take a very expensive and long campaign to educate and repair the fear that now surrounds nuclear power.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #127 of 179
3/15/11 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 
-Europe's energy Commissioner Guenther Oettinger has dubbed Japan's nuclear disaster an "apocalypse", saying Tokyo had almost lost control of events at the Fukushima power plant. He said in remarks to the European Parliament:
"There is talk of an apocalypse and I think the word is particularly well chosen. Practically everything is out of control. I cannot exclude the worst in the hours and days to come."
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uake-live.html

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #128 of 179
3/15/11 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

-Europe's energy Commissioner Guenther Oettinger has dubbed Japan's nuclear disaster an "apocalypse", saying Tokyo had almost lost control of events at the Fukushima power plant. He said in remarks to the European Parliament:
"There is talk of an apocalypse and I think the word is particularly well chosen. Practically everything is out of control. I cannot exclude the worst in the hours and days to come."
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uake-live.html

The hysterics of germans is irrelevant.
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post #129 of 179
3/15/11 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

No, he is probably right. It would likely have to be someone who is interested in making money and has money to burn to get there. It will take a very expensive and long campaign to educate and repair the fear that now surrounds nuclear power.

When I think of "money to burn" the federal government comes to my mind.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #130 of 179
3/15/11 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The hysterics of germans is irrelevant.

Except that they are shutting down 7 reactors, meaning their demand for fossil fuels will go up. Oh, joy.
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post #131 of 179
3/15/11 at 6:17pm
This morning saw somewhere that GE knew this design was dangerous before this plant was even built.

Got it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fukush...ry?id=13141287

 

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post #132 of 179
3/15/11 at 9:09pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Greedy ass corporations. No surprises there. When will the right wing learn to stop trusting them?

Build plants that are designed not to melt down. They exist.

 

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post #133 of 179
3/15/11 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Build plants that are designed not to melt down. They exist.

Yes, they do. But they didn't 40 years ago.
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post #134 of 179
3/15/11 at 9:30pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
And your point is?

 

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post #135 of 179
3/15/11 at 9:32pm
I think everybody understands that all future plants must be meltdown-proof. But you keep repeating this.

Is anybody on the board disagreeing with you?
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post #136 of 179
3/15/11 at 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

This morning saw somewhere that GE knew this design was dangerous before this plant was even built.

Got it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fukush...ry?id=13141287

This looks not good:

The rods must be kept cool because otherwise they start to burn and, in the case of reactor number 3, would release plutonium and uranium in the form of vapor into the atmosphere.

“That’s bad news, because plutonium scattered into the atmosphere is even more dangerous that the combustion products of rods without plutonium,” writes Kirk James Murphy.

“We’d be lucky if we only had to worry about the spent fuel rods from a single holding pool. We’re not that lucky. The Fukushima Daiichi plant has seven pools for spent fuel rods. Six of these are (or were) located at the top of six reactor buildings. One “common pool” is at ground level in a separate building. Each “reactor top” pool holds 3450 fuel rod assemblies. The common pool holds 6291 fuel rod assemblies. [The common pool has windows on one wall which were almost certainly destroyed by the tsunami.] Each assembly holds sixty-three fuel rods.

This means the Fukushima Daiichi plant may contain over 600,000 spent fuel rods.”

The second hydrogen-oxygen explosion blew the roof of that reactor building to kingdom come. Thousands of spent fuel rods from the "rooftop" storage pools may have been blown sky high and then rained down to the ground all over the complex. Now they are uncovered, exposed to the air and probably emitting quantities of solid (radioactive) particulate material.
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post #137 of 179
3/15/11 at 10:50pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I think everybody understands that all future plants must be meltdown-proof. But you keep repeating this.

Is anybody on the board disagreeing with you?

Yes, Hands says that meltdown proof plants aren't safe enough because nuclear = bad always.

 

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post #138 of 179
3/16/11 at 12:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Yes, they do. But they didn't 40 years ago.

It seems they did. There was a discussion somewhere (sorry, I think it was a TV guest) wherein they said that at about the time this reactor was being designed, a safer design was developed in Canada but GE effectively squashed it.

 

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post #139 of 179
3/16/11 at 12:22am
SDF is preparing to use helicopters to drop water and chemicals into #4 reactor.

Our hopes are with them.

 

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post #140 of 179
3/16/11 at 10:37am
Canada's nuclear program produced CANDU reactors. They were a limited success story, but now seem to be woefully behind the times. The Conservatives here have been trying to offload the whole company to the private sector because of this. The newest generation of CANDU, I believe, is not meltdown-proof, like the pebble based stuff BR has championed. After this disaster, I think non-meltdown-proof designs are done, as are the Canadian taxpayers who backstopped CANDU.

Where can I buy investments in coal-scrubbing technology?
Because after Japan, that's really starting to look like the only safe political option for the next 15 years or so.
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post #141 of 179
3/16/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Canada's nuclear program produced CANDU reactors. They were a limited success story, but now seem to be woefully behind the times. The Conservatives here have been trying to offload the whole company to the private sector because of this. The newest generation of CANDU, I believe, is not meltdown-proof, like the pebble based stuff BR has championed. After this disaster, I think non-meltdown-proof designs are done, as are the Canadian taxpayers who backstopped CANDU.

Where can I buy investments in coal-scrubbing technology?
Because after Japan, that's really starting to look like the only safe political option for the next 15 years or so.

Of course under normal operation coal produces more radiation than nuclear.


Coal Ash Is More Radioactive than Nuclear Waste
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post #142 of 179
3/16/11 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

It seems they did. There was a discussion somewhere (sorry, I think it was a TV guest) wherein they said that at about the time this reactor was being designed, a safer design was developed in Canada but GE effectively squashed it.

So they "squashed it" rather than simply choosing a different design? Sounds evil, greedy and corporate the way you say it.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #143 of 179
3/17/11 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
"Latest
16.43 British Search and Rescue teams are due to pull out of Japan tomorrow, along with their American counterparts, it has been announced.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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~ William Hazlitt

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post #144 of 179
3/17/11 at 10:58am
Good article here re. the design of G.E. reactor design which have failed in Japan. But is it fair to lump all the blame on the engineers? In many instances re. technology of all types, engineers are forced to redesign equipment to conform to cost limits set by management.... which in the case of nuclear power, definitely appears to be a false economy.

Surely the G.E. design team didn't deliberately omit an option for venting hydrogen... or placing storage pools above the reactors, etc etc? I know little is easier than hindsight, but it would be interesting to find out how the final plans for this reactor design were approved.
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post #145 of 179
3/17/11 at 2:23pm
Only one of the reactors is GE AFAIK. Go hate on Toshiba.
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post #146 of 179
3/17/11 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Only one of the reactors is GE AFAIK. Go hate on Toshiba.

Is this incorrect?

Update: On Monday, GE Hitachi Nuclear sent the following statement, in full: "The BWR Mark 1 reactor is the industry’s workhorse with a proven track record of safety and reliability for more than 40 years. Today, there are 32 BWR Mark 1 reactors operating as designed worldwide. There has never been a breach of a Mark 1 containment system."

The six reactors at the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant, which had explosions on Saturday and Monday, are all GE-designed boiling-water reactors, known in the industry as BWRs. Five have containment systems of GE's Mark I design, and the sixth is of the Mark II type. They were placed in operation between 1971 and 1979.
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post #147 of 179
3/17/11 at 9:28pm
And what? I doubt they invented the system. All government approved. I blame Obama.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #148 of 179
3/18/11 at 8:36am
Thread Starter 
Some perspective-

"Japan's biggest-ever tsunami was recorded at 38.2-metres high in a massive 1896 earthquake"

and-

"14.50: The tsunami that devastated northeastern Japan in the March 11 earthquake was at least 23 metres (76 feet) high, according to a Japanese study"
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uake-live.html

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #149 of 179
3/18/11 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

And what? I doubt they invented the system. All government approved. I blame Obama.

Of course. I don't like him any more than you do! He's just another hack for the corporatists.
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post #150 of 179
3/18/11 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Some perspective-

"Japan's biggest-ever tsunami was recorded at 38.2-metres high in a massive 1896 earthquake"

and-

"14.50: The tsunami that devastated northeastern Japan in the March 11 earthquake was at least 23 metres (76 feet) high, according to a Japanese study"
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uake-live.html

So what perspective are you trying to get here? Where were the Tsunami's in relation to each other. What were the population figures? Death toll? Destruction that occurred? I am not sure the point you are specifically making. That worse has happened in the past?
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #151 of 179
3/18/11 at 12:22pm
He's pointing out that they should have been better prepared for this event, which is something we all know by now.

God bless the 'Fukushima 50', or how many of them there are that are giving their very lives to protect their fellow countrymen, and perhaps, other parts of the world.
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post #152 of 179
3/18/11 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

He's pointing out that they should have been better prepared for this event, which is something we all know by now.

God bless the 'Fukushima 50', or how many of them there are that are giving their very lives to protect their fellow countrymen, and perhaps, other parts of the world.


It is now much higher than 50. TEPCO staff was ordered back in. The SDF has troops in the plant. There were some police officers for the first dousing operation. There are now members of the Tokyo Hyper Rescue Team.

Last I saw, about 200 people are at the plant working on this.

The news just now is suggesting the dousing system for #3 reactor is set up drawing water directly from the sea and the trucks are being remotely controlled. Crews only need to go out to refuel the,; I suspect something will be done about this soon. Most important was to start the spraying.

 

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post #153 of 179
3/18/11 at 10:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

It is now much higher than 50. TEPCO staff was ordered back in. The SDF has troops in the plant. There were some police officers for the first dousing operation. There are now members of the Tokyo Hyper Rescue Team.

Last I saw, about 200 people are at the plant working on this.

The news just now is suggesting the dousing system for #3 reactor is set up drawing water directly from the sea and the trucks are being remotely controlled. Crews only need to go out to refuel the,; I suspect something will be done about this soon. Most important was to start the spraying.

That is good news that they have gotten this started so that the people don't have to stay in harms way to keep the water flowing.
NoahJ
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post #154 of 179
3/19/11 at 3:44pm
Borate and boron is now being dropped by helicopter on the stricken reactor... but here's the extraordinary thing. The Japanese had none of this material on hand... vital in a nuclear emergency as it tempers nuclear reactions by absorbing neutrons. They had to import it - quickly - from the U.S. Where did they get it from? Diablo Canyon, on the Central California coast, the nuclear power station which ranks #9 as the potentially most hazardous in the US on account of several nearby faults each capable of generating an M7 earthquake.

Again, I mention that hindsight is so easy when commenting on dire emergencies like this, but if there is a definition of shortsightedness... this example surely qualifies.
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post #155 of 179
3/20/11 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Borate and boron is now being dropped by helicopter on the stricken reactor... but here's the extraordinary thing. The Japanese had none of this material on hand... vital in a nuclear emergency as it tempers nuclear reactions by absorbing neutrons. They had to import it - quickly - from the U.S. Where did they get it from? Diablo Canyon, on the Central California coast, the nuclear power station which ranks #9 as the potentially most hazardous in the US on account of several nearby faults each capable of generating an M7 earthquake.

Again, I mention that hindsight is so easy when commenting on dire emergencies like this, but if there is a definition of shortsightedness... this example surely qualifies.

I heard/read early on that they were putting boron in the sea water. They may have run out. I doubt it would do that much unless it get very close to the rods. If the rods in the cooling pool are covered in water like they should be the boron isn't needed. But maybe they think it will help if the water is low.

Someone call Captain Hindsight.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #156 of 179
3/20/11 at 10:23am
Thread Starter 
Clean tech survives tsunami and quake and helps the situation instead of it making it much, much worse-

"Colleagues and I have been directly corresponding with Yoshinori Ueda leader of the International Committee of the Japan Wind Power Association & Japan Wind Energy Association, and according to Ueda there has been no wind facility damage reported by any association members, from either the earthquake or the tsunami. Even the Kamisu semi-offshore wind farm, located about 300km from the epicenter of the quake, survived. Its anti-earthquake "battle proof design" came through with flying colors."

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~ William Hazlitt

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post #157 of 179
3/20/11 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Clean tech survives tsunami and quake and helps the situation instead of it making it much, much worse-

"Colleagues and I have been directly corresponding with Yoshinori Ueda leader of the International Committee of the Japan Wind Power Association & Japan Wind Energy Association, and according to Ueda there has been no wind facility damage reported by any association members, from either the earthquake or the tsunami. Even the Kamisu semi-offshore wind farm, located about 300km from the epicenter of the quake, survived. Its anti-earthquake "battle proof design" came through with flying colors."

How many wind farms do you need to power Tokyo?
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post #158 of 179
3/20/11 at 11:27pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Hands, read it and weep. Nuclear power is NOT unsafe.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/dea...gy-source.html

Code:

Energy Source              Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

Coal – world average               161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)
Coal – China                       278
Coal – USA                         15
Oil                                36  (36% of world energy)
Natural Gas                         4  (21% of world energy)
Biofuel/Biomass                    12
Peat                               12
Solar (rooftop)                     0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)
Wind                                0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)
Hydro                               0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)
Hydro - world including Banqiao)    1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)
Nuclear                             0.04 (5.9% of world energy)

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #159 of 179
3/21/11 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Basically you can't. The vast majority of people have no background to understand science and engineering. Their political or religious bend has nothing to do it with it. The media sells on fear and what's to fear from a well designed and built nuclear plant?

It will take a long well executed PR campaign to make it possible. Who's going to do that?

The first fear any human being hears from a nuclear plant being over cooked is radiation.Some media tells the truth not all. The Japanese Government is holding back information from their own people not revealing what is happening.Why?
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post #160 of 179
3/21/11 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

The first fear any human being hears from a nuclear plant being over cooked is radiation.Some media tells the truth not all. The Japanese Government is holding back information from their own people not revealing what is happening.Why?

Huh? What are you driving at in reply to my post?


You're reply makes the point for me that most people cannot understand nuclear engineering or radiological science. Even if the Japanese government or the power company gave the best information in real time 99.99% of the population wouldn't understand it or even be able to educate themselves in a period of time.

How many people reading this know what difference is between exposure, dose and dose equivalent?
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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