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Inside Apple's iPad 2 A5: fast LPDDR2 RAM, costs 66% more than Tegra 2 - Page 2

post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thanks. I assumed those dimensions were for the PoP. They surely have the width to do it, assuming they can make room for the chip for that extra 40mm^2, which I think they can.

I agree, given that the width difference is just 0.2mm (assuming they orient the chip so the 2.6mm larger side is along the board).

In fact, when you look at the A4 having 3.4mm space between die and edge of package on all sides, and A5 having 2.3mm and 2.1mm, with the smaller gap width-wise to come in just barely wider than A4, I would suspect that fitting on the iPhone 5's circuit board was a key design decision way back when.
post #42 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

No but I do remember Bob Wilkins of "Creature Feature" fame telling at least one Milpitas joke every week...

I miss Bob Wilkins and the classic creature feature format. The current KOFY scary movie thing is an attempt to make the idea palatable to younger people, with horrible comics, strippers, and no more that 5 minutes of the movie allowed to roll between bits. Unwatchable.

Quote:
Not quite - it's a corruption of Ohlone and Spanish. Besides, that's a salt marsh and I dare you to grow corn in a salt marsh.

Right. Means something like "small garden where several crops are grown." Also, "El Cerrito" means "The Cerrito", in case you were wondering.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #43 of 66
And don't get excited, kids. We're talking about San Jose strippers on KOFY.

You can see more scintillating talent on free tube sites. Hell, Paul's (from the Diamond Center) Yule log is more interesting.
post #44 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

And don't get excited, kids. We're talking about San Jose strippers on KOFY.

You can see more scintillating talent on free tube sites. Hell, Paul's (from the Diamond Center) Yule log is more interesting.

And it all takes place in one of James Gabbert's studio dungeons, where fun has been going to die for the last 20 years.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #45 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


GLOBALFOUNDRIES Launches Industry's First 28nm
ARM Cortex-A9 Processor Platform with Gate First High-K Metal Gate

Milpitas, Calif. September 1, 2010

A5 based on 20nm: 2GHz, 1/4 size and ultra low dissipation. Wow.
This will come close to the performance of Intel chips currently already build with a 32nm feature size. So maybe A7 is a desktop processor?

J.
post #46 of 66
I wonder if mobile device makers are improving battery life by underclocking the chip when the battery nears running out?

Would not be a bad idea, but it might make first impressions of a device not very reliable.
post #47 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by kre62 View Post

I've seen people get the same program showing 950mhz+ speeds. When are all the blogs going to figure out that the proc speed is dynamic all the way up to 1ghz?

This is a 1ghz processor for sure. If it needs it, it'll ramp all the way up.

I don't know but strongly suspect that they will have lower operating points. Generally when chip vendors scale back frequency it is only so they can drop the voltage and really make some power savings (voltage squared term in the energy equation).

So that said most chip vendors usually deploy something like 100% performance, 70-80% and probably around 50%. This would give a really nice saving along with the ability to switch off one of the A9 cores

Kevin
post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Milpitas? MILPITAS???

The armpit of Silicon Valley?

What's a Milpitas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Now Tod...

Don't you remember one of the radio show hosts referring oi Mavis of Milpitas?


FWIW, "milpitas" is Spanish for "little corn fields"

Milpitas, California

... though, some would claim corn tassels resemple [long] blonde pit hair

No iPad 2 for you, today!

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Sorry, his story is better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

No but I do remember Bob Wilkins of "Creature Feature" fame telling at least one Milpitas joke every week...



Not quite - it's a corruption of Ohlone and Spanish. Besides, that's a salt marsh and I dare you to grow corn in a salt marsh.


That's what carpetbaggers and their revisionist history will do for you.


Nope. The estimated delivery date is April 1. Ha-ha!

Where's my TDM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Regarding Dick Applebaum's contention that "milpitas" = "little corn fields:


Thanks Bageljoey, you made my (iPadless) day!

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I miss Bob Wilkins and the classic creature feature format. The current KOFY scary movie thing is an attempt to make the idea palatable to younger people, with horrible comics, strippers, and no more that 5 minutes of the movie allowed to roll between bits. Unwatchable.



Right. Means something like "small garden where several crops are grown." Also, "El Cerrito" means "The Cerrito", in case you were wondering.

Ja Ja Ja Je Je Je....

All right you guys...

Don't spam me... can we compromise???

... Milpitas means "Corn Hos"... with Tassels



Tod: Sorry -- I am terrible with PMs.

TDM was written by Steve Schwartz and later Sean Findlay.

Steve was a large man with a black afro and full sideburns/beard... kinda' resembled pictures of Rasputin. He had a prosthetic leg from a motorcycle accident. It was uncomfortable, so he usually used a crutch. too.

He would come into the store with his Apple ][ serial #009 (case with no air vents) and sit and program... Often removing his prosthetic leg. Sometimes he would get frustrated and jump up and start complaining about this or that reason that the Apple ][ and BASIC wasn't a real computer.

You have to visualize this imposing man, hopping around on one leg, waving his crutch about while bellowing curses at an inanimate object.

Steve was a friend, talented programmer and one of the real pioneers in microcomputers.

... Sigh! ... Great times.

I'll PM you with my email if you want to know more.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Milpitas? MILPITAS???

The armpit of Silicon Valley?

What's a Milpitas?

I'm enjoying the Milpitas chat as much as the next guy, but the fab is in Dresden, as in Deutschland. At least that's what the press release says. I had to check this, because I know how hostile the laws are to business in USA, and especially CA, and I simply didn't believe that any sane individual would bring any form of non-boutique manufacturing to CA. It turns out I was right.

For the record, I have been to Milpitas.
Cat: the other white meat
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Cat: the other white meat
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post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) All of Apple’s trackpads have a physical button. If depressing it hurts your fingers then switch to tap setting.

2) Making something so robust that it withstand being run over by a Mac truck or hurled into the center of Sun "is not always better”. You have to make a tradeoff in order to make a product that is durable but still useful. Panasonic Toughbooks are considerably more durable than other notebooks, but they are designed that way. They are not what a typical consumer would want or need, especially at the premium for that ruggedness.


1- from what i see the trackpad is a single piece of aluminum (?) look on

2- A thinkpad is about the same price, i trade off looking sleek (and better) for durability.... and i used to lose Battery life (not anymore!!!)


to stay on point, why does lower price matter it is as someone said:
Apple makes chip and puts in iPad- $2
NVIDIA makes chip for $1, sells for $2 and manufacturer puts chip in Android device for 2$....
Apple should win this price war.... i don't' know whether to be shocked or horrified

other manufacturer gets chip for same as Apple but has to put in in device = costs more

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #51 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doxxic View Post

I wonder if mobile device makers are improving battery life by underclocking the chip when the battery nears running out?

Would not be a bad idea, but it might make first impressions of a device not very reliable.

There are tons of power savings techniques and and the frequency scaling to the task is just an enhancement from last generation. The A5 most likely also puts unused cores to sleep otherwise their is no way to get the same battery life. For tasks that can be shared across cores the task finishes quicker and then the core sleeps until the next task. This can be done very fast. Also with OpenCL and Grand Central Dispatch, Apple has provide the tools to increase parrellism and use of GPU, so programs can enable their software to take advantage of the new SOC without a bunch of new code.
post #52 of 66
1.
For those buys that think ARM processors will replace X86 hardware in the Macs - you are NUTS. Seriously these chips aren't even 64 bit and performance really sucks.

2.
Im actually surprised that the processor appears to be built on 45nm as Samsung apparently has the 32nm process ready to roll. That Apple was able to maintain battery life is a bit strange, it does make me wonder if they are wrong about the process size.

3.
This makes me wonder if iPhone 5 might actually see a process shrunk die. That is a 32nm or smaller process building the same basic chip. This should afford the iPhone much better battery life.

4.
I still wish Apple would come clean with the specs of the chip. All this cloak and dagger just to get an idea of what the hardware actually is, is disgusting.
post #53 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

1- from what i see the trackpad is a single piece of aluminum (?) look on <messed up link removed>

1) The top is glass, not aluminum.
2) It is a single piece, but why you think that means there can be no physical button remains a mystery.
3) To recap, its integrated into the trackpad. The button is the trackpad. So again, how do the button being integrated automatically mean its harder on your phalanges than a button that is separate. Either way youre still applying force downward to a physical button.

Quote:
to stay on point, why does lower price matter it is as someone said:
Apple makes chip and puts in iPad- $2
NVIDIA makes chip for $1, sells for $2 and manufacturer puts chip in Android device for 2$....
Apple should win this price war.... i don't' know whether to be shocked or horrified

other manufacturer gets chip for same as Apple but has to put in in device = costs more

I have absolutely no idea what youre getting at here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Im actually surprised that the processor appears to be built on 45nm as Samsung apparently has the 32nm process ready to roll. That Apple was able to maintain battery life is a bit strange, it does make me wonder if they are wrong about the process size.

Development comes in many stages. Samsung will have a small fab process in the works for years before its viable for mass production.

Quote:
I still wish Apple would come clean with the specs of the chip. All this cloak and dagger just to get an idea of what the hardware actually is, is disgusting.

I dont get this. Why is it disgusting that Apple doesnt list these detailed specs on the Tech Specs sheet? For what reason? I want to know as much as others on this forum, but I dont see why its disgusting that Apple does out such pointless info that does nothing to sell more devices. Whats so cloak and dagger about not offering information about something so few care about?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) The top is glass, not aluminum.
2) It is a single piece, but why you think that means there can be no physical button remains a mystery.
3) To recap, its integrated into the trackpad. The button is the trackpad. So again, how do the button being integrated automatically mean its harder on your phalanges than a button that is separate. Either way youre still applying force downward to a physical button.


I have absolutely no idea what youre getting at here.

if i use it for more than 5 mins aprox my fingers start really hurting.... its a lot harder than every other trackpad/button(s) that i have used.... thank god for mice.



i wish 28nm would just happen to every chip, sadly thats not life

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #55 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

if i use it for more than 5 mins aprox my fingers start really hurting.... its a lot harder than every other trackpad/button(s) that i have used.... thank god for mice.

There is a screw underneath on the inside you can adjust. I'm not sure if it's for resistance or travel.
post #56 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by drobforever View Post

No reason to dump Samsung from Apple's point of view, rather make them use up their capacity on Apple product so that they won't be able to produce lot's of galaxy tabs at low cost.

I keep hearing people say or allude to the idea that if only competitors could ramp up production volumes, they'd be able to compete with Apple. This is backwards! If only competitors could compete with Apple (i.e. produce something customers wanted), they'd be able to ramp up production volumes.

It's a viscious cycle for them for now. Their products suck, so nobody wants them, so they can't produce tons of them, so they can't save on volume, so they can't compete on price. You end up with a crappy product nobody wants that costs more than the iPad everybody wants.

Moral of the story? Buy AAPL.
post #57 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

1.
For those buys that think ARM processors will replace X86 hardware in the Macs - you are NUTS. Seriously these chips aren't even 64 bit and performance really sucks.

This is a fast moving industry. What's NUTS is saying that something can't possibly happen in the future because current conditions don't support it.

I'm highly skeptical of ARM Macs myself. But the lack of an appropriate currently-shipping chip doesn't factor into my skepticism.
post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


I hope all the people claiming it's just Apple being stubborn at not putting on ports like USB and/or SD cards pay attention to this picture. Particularly the center of it. Thats the micro-SIM slot and look at how much space it takes! Folks who what SD card slots or USB ports - enjoy your wait...
post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

They'll be able to dump Samsung by 2012 with Global Foundries now capable of stamping out ARM based solutions.

With what I see Apple ramping up to produce, I don't see Apple dropping any suppliers - just adding them.
post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by daijones View Post

* mac application publishers are unlikely to recompile all their code for ARM to make universal binaries. It's technically probably straightforward, but...
* even if they did do such a recompile, the much more resource hungry mac programmes would run like treacle on the A5

1) Apple has a well understood and used path for "fat binaries" that support multiple hardware architectures - the majority of software out there could probably be made compatible with minor tweaking and a recompile.

2) More resource hungry programs like PhotoShop or Final Cut probably wouldn't be the target of an A5 running notebook. I'm salivating at an ARM based MacBook AIR that could run for a week and do everything I need an ultraportable to do - with a quick refresh of my favorite lighter weight apps from the Mac App store.

It's probably a little early, but I think a blending of offerings is inevitable.
post #61 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

1) Apple has a well understood and used path for "fat binaries" that support multiple hardware architectures - the majority of software out there could probably be made compatible with minor tweaking and a recompile.

2) More resource hungry programs like PhotoShop or Final Cut probably wouldn't be the target of an A5 running notebook. I'm salivating at an ARM based MacBook AIR that could run for a week and do everything I need an ultraportable to do - with a quick refresh of my favorite lighter weight apps from the Mac App store.

It's probably a little early, but I think a blending of offerings is inevitable.

They use the same OS X using Darwin between v10.3.1 for all iOS-based devices and 10.6 for the current shipping Macs. They use the same SDK for the iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad and Macs and hopefully for the AppleTVs SDK in the future.

I think if anyone can make Mac OS X run on ARM for less expensive, low power notebooks its Apple. I also think if anyone can make the Motorola Atrix concept viable its Apple. They could even use the Mac OS UI to ARM and probably already have.

The MBAs are great but they are still expensive with that SFF ULV CPU costing as much as you find in the MBPs. Thats about ¼ to ⅓ of the sales price right there. But are these chips going to get cheaper and more power efficient? Will Cortex-A15 be sufficient for pushing the apps that people will likely want to use on a simple notebook? Is recreating the MacBook or iBook* line to be low cost ARM-based machines that run the Aqua-ish UI based on Quartz Compositor a viable market for Apple or would it eat into their overall profits or ruin their premium branding even though it would increase their sales?


* I think iBook is dead due to the confusion with the iBooks app, but I included it as it would have been a great name since iDevices use ARM processors, sans the iMac.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #62 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Every Android fan I meet is a hard core PC user and Apple hater ... I am actually beginning to feel pity for these people. They simply wouldn't admit Apple can do anything good if their life depended on it. They simply repeat "Apple's walled garden will ensure its failure" over and over!

This.

Quote:
Meanwhile, the news today that about half of all iPad 2 purchases were first time buyers gave me a sense of the future.

and this too. Spot on!

That's what's hilarious about the Android arguments - they are almost always made by geeks, who, going forward are not what the next expansion of computing is about. My 70+ year old father who for the first time is using email, the web and, heaven help me - Facebook! - on his iPad are the future.

I don't think Android is going anywhere, nor do I wish it any ill will (or Windows, Linux or other technologies). But the days of Apple being a minority player are definitely over. Actually, they were never over - their influence over personal computing has always been there - even if indirectly. It's just that with iOS, they are really reaping the benefits of their technological and user focused leadership.

For Apple competitors that don't get this:



They really need to go back and understand it. This is Apple's biggest innovation. It's not just marketing, it really is a philosophy. Just like the App Store review process. Why do so many other companies have heartburn doing something similar? It might offend the developers! Really? Who exactly is the the real customer for these companies? The developers?

Such fundamental mis-focuses by pretty much all of Apple's competitors explains why they continue to totally miss the mark when competing with Apple.

The only company that was even reasonably close at positioning themselves to compete with Apple was HP with their acquisition of Palm and WebOS. But it's becoming more apparent that Mark Hurd was the driving force behind that, and without him at HP any more HP appears to be letting WebOS flounder in the bureaucracy of yet another large company.

I don't know of any other company that has the nimbleness or culture to directly compete with Apple. Maybe Oracle will buy HP in a few years and Hurd will get another chance
post #63 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think if anyone can make Mac OS X run on ARM for less expensive, low power notebooks its Apple. I also think if anyone can make the Motorola Atrix concept viable its Apple. They could even use the Mac OS UI to ARM and probably already have.

Hmm - a dock for your iPhone or iPad with a supplemental CPU... maybe when Thunderbolt matures. There's an interesting thought!
post #64 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

The only company that was even reasonably close at positioning themselves to compete with Apple was HP with their acquisition of Palm and WebOS. But it's becoming more apparent that Mark Hurd was the driving force behind that, and without him at HP any more HP appears to be letting WebOS flounder in the bureaucracy of yet another large company.

Every couple of years, HP questions themselves whether they should become another IBM-type of high-margin business in software and consulting.

You think that HP would care about their $1.2 billion acquisition of Palm if a couple of years down the road they have an opportunity to buy a big consulting firm for $10-15 billion.
post #65 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Hmm - a dock for your iPhone or iPad with a supplemental CPU... maybe when Thunderbolt matures. There's an interesting thought!

I wasnt even thinking of a supplemental CPU and/or GPU, but thats certainly possible with Thunderbolt.

I was pretty much comparing Atom to the upcoming Cortex-A15 and the Imagination GPUs that should be out by then, then thinking about Darwin OS with both CocoaTouch and Aqua* UI on the same device and switching as you dis/connect it from the accessory device, like with the Atrix.

I cant imagine anyone pulling a design like the Atrix besides Apple. I know it sounds fanboy-ish, but no one else has the experience with PC and mobile HW and SW, nor the OS and development foundations that are so closely related.


* Is it still called Aqua, or should I refer to it as Quartz Compositor or something else?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #66 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I cant imagine anyone pulling a design like the Atrix besides Apple. I know it sounds fanboy-ish, but no one else has the experience with PC and mobile HW and SW, nor the OS and development foundations that are so closely related.

No argument there.

Quote:
* Is it still called Aqua, or should I refer to it as Quartz Compositor or something else?

Whatever it is, it's definitely not Aqua - try searching for Aqua on the Apple.com search engine

The overall interface isn't mentioned here either: http://www.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/

I think much like the amount of RAM in the iPad 2, it just isn't relevant so there is no mention of it. They do mention cocoa, my impression is Apple considers cocoa (and cocoa touch on iOS) more of a framework.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Inside Apple's iPad 2 A5: fast LPDDR2 RAM, costs 66% more than Tegra 2