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Chevy Volt: The Car from Atlas Shrugged aka perspective for regulation folks - Page 3

post #81 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

Guys (and gals, if any), I started a separate thread here:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=145167

Which is strictly on its merits, please no political discussion, but your insight otherwise very much welcomed.

Basically, I think it looks like a great car, nice concept, electric and "hybrid" etc all that, only thing maybe is price. But tons of people around the world would still buy it. I think something is whack with the marketing.

Anyway, have at it, with the caveat above about non-political discussion.

Personally, I don't give a f*** about the political this-or-that. It seems like on its merits the ~sales~ of 100,000 a year globally are very possible.

I think it's a problem with GM and its fractious Vauxhall / Opel/ Holden management.

This is the kind of thing that Steve Jobs could market and distribute with one eye closed.

Something seems off. Price is not an issue. Just like the price of Macs.

Anyway here's the Australian version of the Chevy Volt "ad" [explanation video]... Some people say its better than the US version (ignoring accent differences). Please comment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgd69GQh2Cc

You can't talk about the Volt without talking about the politics. The government rescued GM so the democrats could save their union members. The US government still owns a billions dollar stake in the company and need the stock price to rise to not take a huge lose. At the same time the democrats are spiking the tax break when you buy a Volt to over $10,000. There may also have been in an illegal $18 billion forgiveness of corporate taxes for GM. Plus also the battery companies that Obama sunk billions into are filing for bankruptcy.
post #82 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman View Post

Guys (and gals, if any), I started a separate thread here:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=145167

Which is strictly on its merits, please no political discussion, but your insight otherwise very much welcomed.

Basically, I think it looks like a great car, nice concept, electric and "hybrid" etc all that, only thing maybe is price. But tons of people around the world would still buy it. I think something is whack with the marketing.

Anyway, have at it, with the caveat above about non-political discussion.

Personally, I don't give a f*** about the political this-or-that. It seems like on its merits the ~sales~ of 100,000 a year globally are very possible.

I think it's a problem with GM and its fractious Vauxhall / Opel/ Holden management.

This is the kind of thing that Steve Jobs could market and distribute with one eye closed.

Something seems off. Price is not an issue. Just like the price of Macs.

Anyway here's the Australian version of the Chevy Volt "ad" [explanation video]... Some people say its better than the US version (ignoring accent differences). Please comment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgd69GQh2Cc

The problem isn't maybe price. The problem IS price along with large issues with batteries in cold weather.

I don't believe for a second that Steve Jobs could sell this because there isn't an ecosystem in place that is GM created that makes your life so easy you'll pay a small premium which is what Apple does.

The problem with the Volt and most hybrids is that the difference in cost is more than you would ever pay in gas savings. My Ford Escort as an example averages 300 miles per 10 gallon tank. The total cost to drive it 100,000 miles even at $5 gas is $16,666 dollars. Even if a hybrid gets double the gas mileage that means they can be a little over $8300 more expensive and you'll come out even.

The Volt is $40,000. Now if I get the modern equivalent to my car, the Ford Focus, it is at the highest, $21,000 retail price and what's more they get the same MPG when on gas. The $21,000 is the premium model, it isn't lacking in any form.

Can Apple sell $650 iPhones well against $300-$550 Android phones. Absolutely because what they offer allows a slighly higher price though honestly Apple has price parity with high end Android phones. Can Apple sell the iPhone for $1300? No, not even Steve Jobs could pull that off.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #83 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

You can't talk about the Volt without talking about the politics.

No, you can't do it because of your hyperpartisanship. It is certainly possible to do so otherwise.

 

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post #84 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, you can't do it because of your hyperpartisanship. It is certainly possible to do so otherwise.

The story of the Volt is the story of politically directed loans and bailouts, crony capitalism, jerry rigged CAFE laws, unions hand overs ....

It would be like trying to talk about defense contractors and avoid the politics. They are totally intertwined. Willful ignorance would be unintelligent.
post #85 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The story of the Volt is the story of politically directed loans and bailouts, crony capitalism, jerry rigged CAFE laws, unions hand overs ....

It would be like trying to talk about defense contractors and avoid the politics. They are totally intertwined. Willful ignorance would be unintelligent.

+1 this

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #86 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The story of the Volt is the story of politically directed loans and bailouts, crony capitalism, jerry rigged CAFE laws, unions hand overs ....

It would be like trying to talk about defense contractors and avoid the politics. They are totally intertwined. Willful ignorance would be unintelligent.

Can't talk about how it drives and looks without politics...perfectly idiotic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #87 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Can't talk about how it drives and looks without politics...perfectly idiotic.

I just did but you've got your blinders on while calling everyone else an idiot. The irony kills.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #88 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Can't talk about how it drives and looks without politics...perfectly idiotic.

How it drives and looks is a direct result of politics.

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post #89 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

How it drives and looks is a direct result of politics.

So you are saying everyone should talk about the conman Joseph Smith every time Mormons are brought up because Mormonism is a direct result of a convicted conman making shit up?

Perhaps we should also talk about your parents' genitals in any discussion about you because you are a direct result of their penis and vagina pounding away at each other?

How it drives and looks CAN be discussed without bringing politics into play. Some of you just DON'T WANT TO.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #90 of 163
Sorry, you're not going to scare me away from this conversation. Nice try, though. Maybe try attacking my wife or ethnicity next time. You know, change things up a bit.

If it was the best car ever created you would go out of your way to discuss the politics involved in its creation at every opportunity.

But since it's a total dud - like most everything government has a significant part in - you don't want to discuss the politics involved.

You can't have it both ways.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #91 of 163
Objection, hypothetical. Build up that strawman and KNOCK THAT FUCKER DOWN! By the way, try using the subjunctive when discussing hypothetical situations. "If it were the best car ever..." Your argument and grammar are both atrocious.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #92 of 163
Volt Named 2012 European Car of the Year

Quote:
GM North America President Mark Ruess told the newspaper, "this technology is here to stay, we have all kinds of people who want to copy it and go after it. We are not re-evaluating anything…The only question here is what the rate of sales will be."

When you can just have the government bail you out with money it has taken from the people or borrowed and you don't have to suffer the consequences of failure, you get cars like the Volt and you get executives making statements like this.

Mark Ruess sounds like a politician.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #93 of 163
Chevy Volt production to be cut in July

Quote:
General Motors plans to halt production of the Chevrolet Volt at its Detroit-Hamtramck plant for three weeks in July, instead of the traditional two-week shutdown.

"This is (a) normal part of business as managing to market demand," GM spokeswoman Michelle Malcho said in an e-mail.

Volt production has been idled for a five-week stretch through April 23 because dealers had a surplus of the plug-in extended-range electric vehicle.

The Volt, which can travel about 35 miles on a single charge of electricity until a gasoline-powered generator kicks in, has yet to live up to the automaker's original sales expectations. Chevrolet sold 1,023 Volts in February.

Malcho confirmed that GM sold more than 2,000 Volts in March. Full sales figures will be released this morning.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #94 of 163
Your take on that? I suppose what, gloating? Why do you hate America?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #95 of 163
Not gloating, anger.

A group of individuals calling themselves a government indebted my grandchildren to China to pay for this failure.

I'm not ashamed to be an American, I'm ashamed of the government. There's a difference.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #96 of 163
You missed the other thread. Conservatives are now supposed to like the Volt. Fox News said so.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #97 of 163
You missed the majority of my posts over the past couple years.

I am not a conservative (at least by the current connotation of the word).

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #98 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You missed the other thread. Conservatives are now supposed to like the Volt. Fox News said so.

You missed your Optometry appointment.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #99 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The problem isn't maybe price. The problem IS price along with large issues with batteries in cold weather.

I don't believe for a second that Steve Jobs could sell this because there isn't an ecosystem in place that is GM created that makes your life so easy you'll pay a small premium which is what Apple does.

The problem with the Volt and most hybrids is that the difference in cost is more than you would ever pay in gas savings. My Ford Escort as an example averages 300 miles per 10 gallon tank. The total cost to drive it 100,000 miles even at $5 gas is $16,666 dollars. Even if a hybrid gets double the gas mileage that means they can be a little over $8300 more expensive and you'll come out even.

The Volt is $40,000. Now if I get the modern equivalent to my car, the Ford Focus, it is at the highest, $21,000 retail price and what's more they get the same MPG when on gas. The $21,000 is the premium model, it isn't lacking in any form.

Can Apple sell $650 iPhones well against $300-$550 Android phones. Absolutely because what they offer allows a slighly higher price though honestly Apple has price parity with high end Android phones. Can Apple sell the iPhone for $1300? No, not even Steve Jobs could pull that off.

Hey look. The NY Times made the same point as some other guy we all know.

Quote:
The Volt, which cost nearly $40,000 before a $7,500 federal tax credit, could take up to 27 years to pay off versus a Chevrolet Cruze, assuming it was regularly driven farther than its battery-only range allows. The payback time could drop to about eight years if gas cost $5 a gallon and the driver remained exclusively on battery power.

The Lundberg Survey, which tracks fuel prices, said in March that gas prices would need to reach $12.50 a gallon for the Volt to make sense purely on financial terms. It said the Leaf would be competitive with gas at $8.53 a gallon.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #100 of 163
Nothing pisses off Republicans more than the American auto worker, that's for sure. They hate the American auto worker's union so much that they're willing to attack America, her citizens, and our reputation in order to hurt it.

Pretty amazing, really.
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post #101 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Nothing pisses off Republicans more than the American auto worker, that's for sure. They hate the American auto worker's union so much that they're willing to attack America, her citizens, and our reputation in order to hurt it.

Pretty amazing, really.

They don't seem to hate all those American auto workers who don't happen to be unionized and thus require contract stipulations that make American businesses fail.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #102 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Nothing pisses off Republicans more than the American auto worker, that's for sure. They hate the American auto worker's union so much that they're willing to attack America, her citizens, and our reputation in order to hurt it.

Pretty amazing, really.

There is a distinction between the union and worker. That's what you don't understand,
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post #103 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

There is a distinction between the union and worker. That's what you don't understand,

He understands it perfectly. His petty politics won't allow him to stop hurling hateful charges. This is doubly true when all the Obama programs and plans have largely failed and pretty much name calling, bullying and accusations are all that the political left has remaining in the bag of ideas.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #104 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

He understands it perfectly. His petty politics won't allow him to stop hurling hateful charges. This is doubly true when all the Obama programs and plans have largely failed and pretty much name calling, bullying and accusations are all that the political left has remaining in the bag of ideas.

Of course, there is always flat out lying and denial.
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post #105 of 163
Battery-powered autos proving to be a tough sell

Quote:
Electric vehicle sales have been slow out of the box, despite marketing hype, government incentives and the hopes of green car advocates.

Total sales last year were 17,425, which is less than 0.1 percent of the U.S. car and light truck market.

Nonetheless, automakers show no signs of pulling back their multibillion-dollar bets: They need electric cars to meet tough new fuel-efficiency standards. About a dozen new plug-ins and fully electric cars will go on sale in the next year.

Auto executives point optimistically to March, when electric cars had their best-ever sales month: Nearly 4,000 vehicles sold in the United States. Still, three in every 1,000 cars drove off dealer lots under battery power.

News in recent months has done little to reassure skeptical buyers: General Motors Co. slowed production of its plug-in Chevrolet Volt. Two crash-test Volts caught fire; a government investigation ultimately found no safety problems. Politicians ridiculed electric cars and called for an end to government assistance. Battery companies and suppliers laid off hundreds of employees, while several electric vehicle startups went out of business or struggle to survive.

Even with gas prices flirting near $4 a gallon nationwide, most consumers remain reluctant. Plug-ins or fully electric cars cost $8,000 to $20,000 more than comparable gasoline versions, and it can take years or decades to recoup the higher initial cost.

Drivers worry about limited driving range in fully electric cars. Even some executives admit doubt.

"Right now, from a cost standpoint and a performance standpoint — range for customers — I don't think EVs are ready for primetime," said Toyota Motor USA Sales CEO Jim Lentz.

Click link above for full article.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #106 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Battery-powered autos proving to be a tough sell
Click link above for full article.

 

As if we should have expected any other outcome.  "If it moves, tax it.  If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."   The fact is the technology and market are just not ready.  We won't get there until cost and performance is on par with gasoline powered vehicles.  Really, that's what's amazing to me...this 125 year old technology is still the basically the most efficient, powerful and realistic one for autos.  

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post #107 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I see nothing's changed in the years I've been gone. Trumptman's unbridled hatred for the electric vehicle still rages strong I see.

 

I don't think anyone hates the electric car. I mean ... who doesn't like 100% torque at 0 RPM? It may bring to the cager class what us crotch rocket riders have been enjoying for decades. But ... you know ... how much do you want the government to command the market? Very little for me please.

post #108 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

 

As if we should have expected any other outcome.  "If it moves, tax it.  If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."   The fact is the technology and market are just not ready.  We won't get there until cost and performance is on par with gasoline powered vehicles.  Really, that's what's amazing to me...this 125 year old technology is still the basically the most efficient, powerful and realistic one for autos.  

 

And **** the environment and the legacy we leave our children.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #109 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

 

 

And **** the environment and the legacy we leave our children.

 

Yes, because that's absolutely what I meant.  

 

You suffer from the same delusion the President does....that you can FORCE the market to bend to your will.  You will simply FORCE people to buy the products you want.  Why?  Because you know what's right.  

 

Now go to your room and the let the grown-ups talk.  

 

 

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post #110 of 163
Why do you hate clean air and trees, SDW???

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #111 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

 

Yes, because that's absolutely what I meant. 

 

You suffer from the same delusion the President does....that you can FORCE the market to bend to your will.  You will simply FORCE people to buy the products you want.  Why?  Because you know what's right.  

 

Now go to your room and the let the grown-ups talk.  

 

 

You're a laugh riot with no vision or ambition for our country.

 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #112 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post


I don't think anyone hates the electric car. I mean ... who doesn't like 100% torque at 0 RPM? It may bring to the cager class what us crotch rocket riders have been enjoying for decades. But ... you know ... how much do you want the government to command the market? Very little for me please.

It doesn't really matter. His point isn't a serious one and it is clear from it he isn't serious about a discussion or dialog. Rather his "Maher/Stewart"-ish mocking allows him to turn off his brain and merely assert what he wants without any critical thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post



And **** the environment and the legacy we leave our children.

See another example right here. This is not someone who wants a serious discussion. This is someone who screams rape or witch so the thinking stops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post



Yes, because that's absolutely what I meant.  

You suffer from the same delusion the President does....that you can FORCE the market to bend to your will.  You will simply FORCE people to buy the products you want.  Why?  Because you know what's right.  

Now go to your room and the let the grown-ups talk.  

You get it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post


You're a laugh riot with no vision or ambition for our country.

You're a sad, bitter little man who obviously hits at and hates that which you cannot comprehend or defend intellectually.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #113 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Why do you hate clean air and trees, SDW???

 

 

lol.giflol.giflol.giflol.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

 

You're a laugh riot with no vision or ambition for our country.

 

 

Yeah, that's me.  I mean, it's not like I've consistently laid out a short, medium and long term energy strategy for this country...one with the goal of eliminating our dependance on fossil fuels almost entirely.  </sarcasm> 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


It doesn't really matter. His point isn't a serious one and it is clear from it he isn't serious about a discussion or dialog. Rather his "Maher/Stewart"-ish mocking allows him to turn off his brain and merely assert what he wants without any critical thinking.
See another example right here. This is not someone who wants a serious discussion. This is someone who screams rape or witch so the thinking stops.
You get it!
You're a sad, bitter little man who obviously hits at and hates that which you cannot comprehend or defend intellectually.

 

I'm telling you...he's just like Obama.  He's bitter because the nation is not embracing his quasi-socialist, utopian views.  People DON'T WANT to buy these cars right now, for several reasons. Naturally, BR's reaction is to lash out at these morons and planet-haters.  

 

This election is going to be fun. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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post #114 of 163

The fact that you think Obama is a socialist demonstrates how out of touch you are with reality.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #115 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The fact that you think Obama is a socialist demonstrates how out of touch you are with reality.

If wanted to be out of touch with reality, he'd suggest $40k+ electric cars are going to save GM and fixate on labels for people instead of actions.

You are an increasingly sad little puppy.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #116 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The fact that you think Obama is a socialist demonstrates how out of touch you are with reality.

 

I said quasi-socialist.  Do we really need to have this debate on how he leans that direction?  Really?  

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post #117 of 163

Are you kidding me?  If he's a quasi-socialist, then Nixon and Reagan were full blown communists.  I wish he were a fucking quasi-socialist.  I'd be much happier then.  He's a moderate corporatist that only looks left when comparing him to the absolute nutbaggery that exists in the Republican party now.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #118 of 163

I saw a prius yesterday with a tire that was going flat. Pretty fucking funny. Prius owners, ha!

post #119 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Are you kidding me?  If he's a quasi-socialist, then Nixon and Reagan were full blown communists.  I wish he were a fucking quasi-socialist.  I'd be much happier then.  He's a moderate corporatist that only looks left when comparing him to the absolute nutbaggery that exists in the Republican party now.

 

He favors universal single payer healthcare, and signed a bill that is a back door to achieving it. 

 

He favors higher taxes on the "rich" so they "pay their fair share."  

 

He's overseen a massive expansion of social welfare, from food stamps to SS disability. 

 

He's greatly expanded regulations on businesses small and large alike 

 

He's used "spread the the wealth around" rhetoric and pursued policies to do so.  

 

 

Get real, BR.  He's the most liberal President since FDR.  He's not a socialist per se, but he's closer to it than just about anyone who has been President.  I'm not even criticizing him for it, mind you.  I'm merely pointing out that's who he is.  While I disagree with him completely on many of his positions, it's really his failed leadership and results I take issue with, not to mention that fact that like many Democrats, he pretended to be a moderate when he first ran.   

 

 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #120 of 163

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

 

He favors universal single payer healthcare, and signed a bill that is a back door to achieving it. 

 

He favors higher taxes on the "rich" so they "pay their fair share."  

 

He's overseen a massive expansion of social welfare, from food stamps to SS disability. 

 

He's greatly expanded regulations on businesses small and large alike 

 

He's used "spread the the wealth around" rhetoric and pursued policies to do so.  

 

 

Get real, BR.  He's the most liberal President since FDR.  He's not a socialist per se, but he's closer to it than just about anyone who has been President.  I'm not even criticizing him for it, mind you.  I'm merely pointing out that's who he is.  While I disagree with him completely on many of his positions, it's really his failed leadership and results I take issue with, not to mention that fact that like many Democrats, he pretended to be a moderate when he first ran.   

 

 

 

Nixon:

 

  • Created the EPA
  • The Philadelphia Plan (affirmative action)
  • Clean Air Act
  • OSHA
  • Opened relations with Communist China
  • Endorsed Equal Rights Amendment
  • Set up a cooperative relationship between NASA and the USSR space programs

 

Reagan:

  • Opened up a new cabinet level department - Veteran Affairs
  • Bailed out Social Security and increased payroll taxes; added federal workers to it AND taxed the upper-income earners on their payouts
  • Instituted a gas tax
  • Closed tax loopholes for businesses
  • Signed largest corporate tax increase in history
  • Expanded the EITC (Earned Income Tax Credit)...you know, for poor folks...wealth transfer and the like
  • Started the drawdown of nuclear weapons
  • Clamored for the rich to pay their fair share (you saw the video that started my other thread)
  • Gave amnesty to illegal immigrants

 

Obama bailed out businesses but didn't nationalize them like he certainly could have if you claim he has such a socialist streak.  Obama didn't fight hard for a public option, but instead was party to the Republican plan of an individual mandate--a HUGE corporate giveaway to private insurance companies.  And he's the socialist?  Sounds like Obama is just attempting to follow in Reagan's footsteps (but a bit further to the right), with the Republicans blocking him at every turn.

 

 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
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