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Mac software chief Bertrand Serlet to depart Apple - Page 3

post #81 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Also, please no "Frenchman immediately surrendering" jokes. Serlet's not the type to give up or Jobs wouldn't have hired him.

The only people voicing these "Frenchman immediately surrendering" xenophobic "jokes" are conditioned bigots brainwashed enough to ignore the more than 1.500.000 french soldiers KIA fighting the Germans for the last century alone, that the French actually won for them their American Revolution at Yorktown, etc. What's just sad is that they seem -as you point out- incredibly numerous, reflecting the sorry state of education and History knowledge in the USA...
post #82 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I've never understood the hangups some people have with "profanity". They act like their heads will explode if they hear or read certain words. Language is about expression, and sometimes the best way to express something is to use a word that some people consider "profane".

I know! It's fucking crazy!
post #83 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Apple

I don't blame him for his poor English speaking skills though. While I don't know his background, his poor English speaking skills are probably a product of the extremely discriminatory and xenophobic French speaking countries, where all other languages are shunned in favor of French, which they still falsely believe is an important or influential language. It is not.

Probably? Oh Jeez, another guy who never put a foot in the countries he dares to slander yet can repeats the ludicrous fairy tales which were pushed down his throat... Appalling. Someday you may discover that English is the first foreign language studied in the above phantasied as "xenophobic" countries, that if french people suck at having a proper English accent it is most probably because french pronunciation and sonorities are far different from the English one, that you are an ignoramus living on prejudices, etc.

"To travel is to discover that everyone is wrong about other countries." - Aldous Huxley
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
post #84 of 137
Think over the next years even more of the "old guard" might leave Apple.
Especially those who came over with Steve.

They might see their mission as accomplished and now pursue new careers or spend more time on personal projects.

These people came to a company, on the brink of bankruptcy fighting an uphill battle to gain respectability again.
Apple now has changed its role from the hunter to the hunted.

So you might go out while on top, you not often get that chance.
Also a good time to enjoy all the millions in stock options they earned over the years.
post #85 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

The only people voicing these "Frenchman immediately surrendering" xenophobic "jokes" are conditioned bigots brainwashed enough to ignore the more than 1.500.000 french soldiers KIA fighting the Germans for the last century alone, that the French actually won for them their American Revolution at Yorktown, etc. What's just sad is that they seem -as you point out- incredibly numerous, reflecting the sorry state of education and History knowledge in the USA...

While we are on history lessons also ...

A lot of Americans I've met tend to think of Canadians and Brits as "wimps," "nice guys," "gay," or all of the above, but it was the Canadian/British military that handed the US it's ass on a plate in the first shooting war they ever engaged in.

Not taught in American schools much but, the first military action undertaken by the new United States of America, was to invade Canada, so they could bring "civilisation" to us (the fact that we consorted with natives and blacks made us uncivilised in their eyes, because in the America of that day only white folks were humans).

What actually happened was the Americans turned coward in several key battles, gave up in a couple of others and were massacred in a few more. An American general was actually prosecuted for cowardice and was due to be hung but escaped with his life because of family connections. Canada/Britain on the other hand, counter attacked and beat the Americans all the way to the headwaters of the Mississippi, and among other things burned the White House to the ground. America surrendered, and we gave them all their land back because we are so polite up here.

But yeah, "Americans rule!" and Canadians, French, Natives, etc. they are all known "cowards."
Riiight.
post #86 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Probably? Oh Jeez, another guy who never put a foot in the countries he dares to slander yet can repeats the ludicrous fairy tales which were pushed down his throat... Appalling. Someday you may discover that English is the first foreign language studied in the above phantasied as "xenophobic" countries, that if french people suck at having a proper English accent it is because french pronunciation and sonorities are far different from the English one, that you are an ignoramus living on prejudices, etc.

I've travelled to and even lived in many countries across the globe on various continents. I have also been to numerous European countries, most recently as of last year and will have some business to attend to there this year also. I have never been to France, and I have no desire to visit that place. I have met enough Frenchmen to know that they are no smarter or better educated than Americans. Ignoramuses can be found everywhere. The French language is not that far removed from every other language on the planet as you seem to suggest. There's a reason why you almost never see a French politician who is speaking to an international audience use English.

As far as "Frenchmen surrendering", the first person who brought it up in this thread is the person who you replied to, before you embarked upon your kneejerking and bigoted rant.
post #87 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

My problem is that I realised that at 22! That actually makes things harder when you figure this stuff out when you're still young! Or maybe I'm just a hippie or have been one all along...

I'm 33 this year, enough savings to not have to work for a year, quitting my job soon, but really needing to refocus the career on this tablet stuff. Web was 2000-2010. Mobile is 2011-2020. Time to shift gears from PHP to... ??????

One thing though... I'm not a corporate type, I'm not management type. Creative, concept, marketing, dreamer type. That's another problem there! Or... Crisis-tunity!!

Hey that sounds great, my hat off to you. I hope the year gives you the chance to be extra creative and productive. p.s. Oh and don't ever change, creative people rule ok.
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post #88 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I've travelled to and even lived in many countries across the globe on various continents. I have also been to numerous European countries, most recently as of last year and will have some business to attend to there this year also. I have never been to France, and I have no desire to visit that place. I have met enough Frenchmen to know that they are no smarter or better educated than Americans. Ignoramuses can be found everywhere. The French language is not that far removed from every other language on the planet as you seem to suggest. There's a reason why you almost never see a French politician who is speaking to an international audience use English.

As far as "Frenchmen surrendering", the first person who brought it up in this thread is the person who you replied to, before you embarked upon your kneejerking and bigoted rant.

Many in the French speaking world do fear for the loss of their language to English for sure. However, the same can be said for many a Brit regarding American English!
But remember, stereo types don't a country make.
p.s.... If you do get to France check out the steet corner vendor making fresh crêpe! mmmmmm

Back on Topic ... My money is still on seeing Scott Forstall take over a joint OS team.
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post #89 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Good luck Mr. Serlet on your new horizon!

This is not the first time this has happened. Serlet replaced Avie Tevanian, the then VP of Mac OS software. There was some hemming and hawing when Tevanian left. The NeXT circle is still going though. Tevanian was a NeXT vet (Mr. Mach kernel himself). Serlet was a NeXT vet. And the successor, Federighi is a NeXT vet. Not mention Forstall is a NeXT vet as well. Pretty soon, they are going to run out of NeXT people.

+1 on this (not the last part however);

I hemmed and hawed when Avie left. But now, more than ever... one can revise history to really state "In 1997, on the brink of collapse, Apple paid NeXT to take over Apple."
post #90 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Ouch! I'm not even going there.

Exactly, give him enough rope . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Could you work in the term "poor english skills" one more time? I don't think you used it quite enough. And maybe you could work in another backhanded dig at French culture while your at it.

Exactly, and give him enough rope . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

The only people voicing these "Frenchman immediately surrendering" xenophobic "jokes" are conditioned bigots brainwashed enough to ignore the more than 1.500.000 french soldiers KIA fighting the Germans for the last century alone, that the French actually won for them their American Revolution at Yorktown, etc. What's just sad is that they seem -as you point out- incredibly numerous, reflecting the sorry state of education and History knowledge in the USA...

Right on, xenophobia abounds in the U.S. because of ignorance, which has institutional status here, always has, for a complex set of off-topic reasons. More on topic, Apple and Silicon Valley in general seem to have never bothered much about antiquated details like national or cultural origins, instead aiming to serve all cultures everywhere, and not just for business reasons alone. I'm sure Steve Jobs is being very literal when he talks of changing the world. You need to cultivate a crew from around the world to do that. I think it's significant that Serlet and Jobs have worked together for 22 years.
post #91 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

+1 on this (not the last part however);

I hemmed and hawed when Avie left. But now, more than ever... one can revise history to really state "In 1997, on the brink of collapse, Apple paid NeXT to take over Apple."

That's about right when you think about it!
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post #92 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So he learned English late, big deal.

I'm sure that my German has an American accent and my Irish is laughable at best, but they get the job done.

Accents make stuff COOLER. I will miss him because I liked listening to him speak!
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post #93 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

However, the same can be said for many a Brit regarding American English!

I obviously speak and write American, but I'm a big fan of British English also. I like British sitcoms, especially older ones like Fawlty Towers and Black Adder.
post #94 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I obviously speak and write American, but I'm a big fan of British English also. I like British sitcoms, especially older ones like Fawlty Towers and Black Adder.

Two of the all time best for sure!
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post #95 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Accents make stuff COOLER. I will miss him because I liked listening to him speak!

Made me jealous, my wife thought he sounded sooo sexy!
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post #96 of 137
Holy crap. What is with this jealousy speculation. Bertrand is a former colleague of mine at NeXT and Apple. The man oversaw the entire OS after Avi Tevanian departed and was second behind him at NeXT. This is not a jealousy bit with the iOS team as he had a major part in it's creation.

Grow up people.

Bertrand is the most warm, open and friendly person you could ever meet. If only the world of professional corporations were filled with Bertrand Serlet clones. Craig is a chip off the old block. He's the best person and professional to take his place. Both people are rare.
post #97 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

I think it's a shame some people take every company statement as "obvious PR".

The company I work for had the CFO leave a couple of months ago. He left because he wanted to find a CEO position, and our CEO is going nowhere so there is no chance of him moving up internally. The press attacked us claiming there must be something going on, whereas actually, he wanted to find a CEO position.

People are now doing the same with this announcement. I hope Serlet is going to pursue a science career.

Did your company issue a statement for why that CFO was leaving? Did he officially say "he wanted to find a CEO position, and our CEO is going nowhere so there is no chance of him moving up internally"? Or did he say something about "spending more time with his family", "pursuing other opportunities", etc?
post #98 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

There is no disputing OS X and iOS continue to borrow from each other and all to the benefit of both. Your points, if true, would lend credence to a new single head of the two departments and give some support to my theory on Scott becoming head and Bertrand gracefully moving on.

BTW I'd LOVE to see a fully fledged iOS emulator or even seamless integration on a Mac so I can run some of the apps I have. I realize some would not make sense but many could be controlled by a magic mouse and keyboard. The ability to continue entering data for example would be nice if you were sitting at a Mac when you wanted to do this, indeed the ability to cut and paste between the two would be also.

Actually Bertran is/was the head of both departments. The IOS engineers originally came out of the Core OS team and were actually managed as part of the same team for some time. Not sure if that is still the case. But the knowledge flows both ways in any case.
post #99 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

I swear, if some of you "iOS is too restrictive, it'd better not migrate to the desktop" people were designing toasters, the customer would have to open the side panel, remove a resistor and put in another one and adjust the distance of the elements to the toast with a screwdriver if they wanted their toast a little browner one day.

Sounds like an iMac hardware designer.
post #100 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Holy crap. What is with this jealousy speculation. Bertrand is a former colleague of mine at NeXT and Apple. The man oversaw the entire OS after Avi Tevanian departed and was second behind him at NeXT. This is not a jealousy bit with the iOS team as he had a major part in it's creation.

Grow up people.

Bertrand is the most warm, open and friendly person you could ever meet. If only the world of professional corporations were filled with Bertrand Serlet clones. Craig is a chip off the old block. He's the best person and professional to take his place. Both people are rare.

Thanks for the draught of reality.

Gruber links to a funny video of Serlet on stage at WWDC talking about Windows Vista:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2C2...e_gdata_player

Probably a classic that everyone remembers, but I had missed it.
post #101 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Mercenary View Post

Actually Bertran is/was the head of both departments. The IOS engineers originally came out of the Core OS team and were actually managed as part of the same team for some time. Not sure if that is still the case. But the knowledge flows both ways in any case.

Good to know. Thanks. I see in later reporting that Craig Federighi is now head so seems I lost my 1$ betting Scott would head up both teams. However, Apple's OSs are in good hands.
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post #102 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

There are not a lot of details but it sounds like he wants to shift to non company specific products. Like maybe a new open video codec/format for downloadable blu-ray quality files. Or other 'open' software for all to utilize.

He's had a good run and like Steve has probably been grooming his replacement for years. So I'm not particularly worried.

thats the reponse I was looking for, thanks for keeping the discussion up to good standards after the preceding idiocies in replies to that post of mine.
post #103 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Hey that sounds great, my hat off to you. I hope the year gives you the chance to be extra creative and productive. p.s. Oh and don't ever change, creative people rule ok.

Cheers and thanks for the encouragement...
post #104 of 137
@nvidia, we have very parallel paths, including the age. Good luck, it's a bit hard when you are not going so to speak mainstream, but it's rewarding as hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I've never understood the hangups some people have with "profanity". They act like their heads will explode if they hear or read certain words. Language is about expression, and sometimes the best way to express something is to use a word that some people consider "profane".

hear, hear, political correctness is the alibi for lack of innate tact and politeness and it's all about pretense.
post #105 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Thanks for the draught of reality.

Gruber links to a funny video of Serlet on stage at WWDC talking about Windows Vista:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2C2...e_gdata_player

Probably a classic that everyone remembers, but I had missed it.

Thanks for the post. Loved seeing that again. Oh, and I love his accent ... now I realize where Peter Sellers got his Clouseau!
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post #106 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Cheers and thanks for the encouragement...

Your post brought back memories . I did the same thing at the same age spending two years on the coast of the Med on the border of Spain and France.
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post #107 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

2021-2030 - just trying not to be killed plus finding something to eat to keep from starving to death...

Call me Mr. Happy...



Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post

You are more my kind of people. Did you by any chance listen to Steve Jobs Stanford Speech a few years back? He talked about the time for reflection, the "lazy moments".

I've read snippets, I should have a good listen sometime.
post #108 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I've never understood the hangups some people have with "profanity". They act like their heads will explode if they hear or read certain words. Language is about expression, and sometimes the best way to express something is to use a word that some people consider "profane".

There is a place for it, humor, exaggeration etc. but not in responding directly to a fellow blogger on a blog in a knee jerk reaction as happened on this thread at the start. It is all well and good to defend colorful speech ... until someone calls you a f*****g moron to your face as it were. IMHO blog etiquette is broken under such circustances. It never fails it seems that those that do that usually have the wrong end of the fucking stick anyway!
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post #109 of 137
"I wonder if this is because of the demise of OS X in the face of iOS?"

The demise of OS X? Surely you jest!
post #110 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

"I wonder if this is because of the demise of OS X in the face of iOS?"

The demise of OS X? Surely you jest!

Read the whole thread before knee jerk response.
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post #111 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacrilegend View Post

^ Because people don't read the f^#%ing articles anymore. That's why.

I didn't see his comment so I can only imagine. I put myapplelove on my ignore list because the postings are always not only useless but totally irrelevant.

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post #112 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I didn't see his comment so I can only imagine. I put myapplelove on my ignore list because the postings are always not only useless but totally irrelevant.

That's a shame, if you read this entire thread you'd discover you are mistaken.
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post #113 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Let's just hope this is actually the reason and not some massive inducement from RIM, Samsung or Mattel (I keep wondering why they don't have an Android clone too) or something.

Seriously though, I wonder if this is because of the demise of OS X in the face of iOS?

The transition from Mac OS 9 to OS X involved the eventual demise of the original Mac OS. Specifically it was the OS from NeXT replacing the OS from Apple. Nothing like that is involved today. Both OS X and iOS are derived from the same Darwin core with AppKit and UIKit providing user interface by mouse/keyboard vs multitouch. All the other libraries are shared (that is admittedly a slight simplification).

In fact, the pedigree of iOS is largely responsible for the success of its devices. A "real" computer OS with decades of refinement rather than an awful kludge that was "built to last a lunchtime". It also accounts for the explosive success and growth of the AppStore. There were already thousands of OS X developers who were well acquainted with most of the APIs and tools.

Now that Apple has opened an AppStore for the Mac there is likely to be an explosion of specific OS X developer activity because developers attracted by iOS finding another opportunity for newly acquired skills. At this point one could only describe Mac OS X as being ascendant.
post #114 of 137
Mr. Serlet has had a distinguished career at NeXT and Apple. With all respect to the design and engineering teams, I have always viewed the OS guys as the glue that held it all together.

Nullis in verba -- "on the word of no one"

 

 

 

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Nullis in verba -- "on the word of no one"

 

 

 

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post #115 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertP View Post

Mr. Serlet has had a distinguished career at NeXT and Apple. With all respect to the design and engineering teams, I have always viewed the OS guys as the glue that held it all together.

Hooray, more sanity. Who said earlier that it was NeXT (software) that took over Apple (hardware)?

edit: It was TheOtherGeoff, above, this page.
post #116 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdbryan View Post

The transition from Mac OS 9 to OS X involved the eventual demise of the original Mac OS. Specifically it was the OS from NeXT replacing the OS from Apple. Nothing like that is involved today. Both OS X and iOS are derived from the same Darwin core with AppKit and UIKit providing user interface by mouse/keyboard vs multitouch. All the other libraries are shared (that is admittedly a slight simplification).

In fact, the pedigree of iOS is largely responsible for the success of its devices. A "real" computer OS with decades of refinement rather than an awful kludge that was "built to last a lunchtime". It also accounts for the explosive success and growth of the AppStore. There were already thousands of OS X developers who were well acquainted with most of the APIs and tools.

Now that Apple has opened an AppStore for the Mac there is likely to be an explosion of specific OS X developer activity because developers attracted by iOS finding another opportunity for newly acquired skills. At this point one could only describe Mac OS X as being ascendant.

This too.
post #117 of 137
Actually, it is a big deal.

I'm not talking about his grammar. I'm saying he's difficult to understand. When your job is public speaking to a primarily english-speaking audience, your top priority is being able to communicate your ideas clearly in that language. Anyone that's listened to him knows that his diction is about as good as Latka from Taxi.

It's like when colleges allow foreign T/A's to teach who barely speak English. How are you supposed to learn about the topic they're teaching if you can't understand them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Agreed 'big deal' indeed. It's funny how arrogant English speaking people can be about English not being spoken how they perceive as correct. Just ask a cockney in London what they think of a Geordie from Newcastle Upon Tyne ..

I have lived in the US for 21 years and still have an English accent (I have no idea how I would change it ... faking a US one would seem ludicrous). Luckily for me my accent is actually liked by most here so I don't suffer the sort of comment you were responding to.
post #118 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I do agree with the poster who mentioned his accent. If somebody can not speak proper English or if they have a very thick accent, then they should not be giving public presentations, as language and delivery is key. I'm sure that he would have been great at demonstrating at a Mac Paris expo, but in the English speaking world, not so much.

Then why are Americans allowed to speak in public then?

If you can't understand someone's accent the problem isn't theirs it's yours.

It irritates me seeing subtitles on American TV for people who are speaking fluent English all because Americans have trouble understanding accents.

Why is this not difficult for the rest of the world? I have no problems listening to Serlet and find him to be quite refreshing... him and Ive.
post #119 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

It's maybe because people feel compelled to embarrass themselves by posting ****ing idiocies on what others have to say.

FYI because I have an academic career, it's understandable to ask how come someone with an established business career is aiming to make an academic leap, given that it's usually quite difficult to move from one domain to the other (esp. from business to academia). But of course this all flies over your head...

Funny how when you think science & research you think academia, there are lots of corporations that also do science & research.

It's also interesting that you assumed the stated reasons for his leaving were false. Stating this belief would support your claims that what you said wasn't meant to be literal as it implies you naturally assume statements to be non-literal. You didn't take Bertrand literally & therefor you made a statement we weren't supposed to take literally...I think I got it.
post #120 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135 View Post

Actually, it is a big deal.

I'm not talking about his grammar. I'm saying he's difficult to understand. When your job is public speaking to a primarily english-speaking audience, your top priority is being able to communicate your ideas clearly in that language. Anyone that's listened to him knows that his diction is about as good as Latka from Taxi.

It's like when colleges allow foreign T/A's to teach who barely speak English. How are you supposed to learn about the topic they're teaching if you can't understand them?

You titled this post "arrogance," possibly referring to yourself? First, his job was not about public speaking, was it . . .

Second, in order for an American (I'm one too) to make a complaint like this without sounding parochial, rude and . . . arrogant, he needs to qualify it with 'I have a terrible ear for language and have never paid any attention to other ways of speaking, like Americans generally, so please forgive my . . ." etc. Then maybe you can break the rules of civility.

Look at it another way: Romance languages have a great deal of oral intensity -- they put a lot of effort into pronounciation -- especially French. American English, but not so much British English, is just the opposite -- slurred, slovenly pronounciation. So it's very difficult to Americans to learn to speak French, and vice versa for French to flatten everything to suit the undiscriminating ear of Americans.
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