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Is Obama Muslim?

post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 
Our first black POTUS, Obama, some doubt he's an American, but let's dig deeper and ask the question "Is he a muslim?". What are the implications if he is, especially in regards to terrorism?

Here's some food for thought-

"Yes, there's a new Obama-Muslim conspiracy theory on the right: The evangelical son of one of America's most famous evangelists says that President Barack Obama has allowed the Muslim Brotherhood to become part of the US government and influence administration decisions.

In an interview last week with Newsmax.com, a conservative website (that pushes the Obama-was-born-in-Kenya conspiracy theory), Franklin Graham, an evangelist like his father, Billy Graham, claimed that the fundamentalist Islamic political group has burrowed into the Obama administration and is shaping US foreign policy. Sounding a bit like Glenn Beck, Graham explained:

The Muslim Brotherhood is very strong and active in our country. It's infiltrated every level of our government. Right now we have many of these people that are advising the US military and State Department on how to respond in the Middle East, and it's like asking a fox, like a farmer asking a fox, "How do I protect my henhouse from foxes?" We've brought in Muslims to tell us how to make policy toward Muslim countries. And many of these people we've brought in, I'm afraid, are under the Muslim Brotherhood.

Infiltrated every level of our government—that's quite a claim. Yet Graham did not name a single Muslim Brotherhood infiltrator or cite a specific Obama administration decision that has been manipulated by these crafty behind-the-scenes Islamists. (The quotes in the Newsmax article reporting Graham's remarks differ slightly from what he actually said during his interview with Newsmax, according to the video of the interview, which is posted below.)

Though Graham did not back up his charge that Obama has opened the US government to the Muslim Brotherhood, he did say that he believes the president is more concerned with helping Muslims than Christians—both in the United States and abroad. When the Newsmax interviewer asked Graham if Obama has been doing enough to support Christianity and Christians at home and overseas, Graham replied, "No...If anything, it's the opposite." He added, "The Muslims are protected more in this country than Christians."

Graham did not cite specifics on this point, either. A spokesman said Graham was unable to comment on his remarks to Newsmax since he was en route to Africa.

While Graham did not question Obama's Christian faith during this interview, his comments tracked with the extremist right-wing claim that the president is a secret Muslim. And Graham has raised the matter of an Obama Islamic connection in the past. Last August, he told CNN that because Obama's father had been a Muslim, Obama had a perception "problem." The president's father, who was not involved in Obama's rearing, was born a Muslim, but as an adult he was an atheist. Obama was not raised as a Muslim.

It's no surprise that Franklin Graham is worried about Muslims sneaking into the US government. He has declared Islam "a very evil and wicked religion." Last year, he was disinvited from a National Prayer Breakfast event at the Pentagon after his Islam-bashing became an issue. (Sarah Palin quickly rushed to Graham's rhetorical rescue, pronouncing his excommunication from this ecumenical breakfast a travesty.

For his part, Graham was not at all apologetic about his attacks on Islam. Instead, he called the revoking of his invitation "a slap at all evangelical Christians."*He blamed the White House for orchestrating the move: "I don't know if it's exactly from President Obama. But I'm certain that some of the men around him are very much opposed to what we stand for and what we believe." Graham added, "I just don't understand why the president would be giving Islam a pass." Could it be precisely because the Muslim Brotherhood had infiltrated Obama's circles? Graham didn't say so back then. Perhaps that was before he had discovered this plot."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...spiracy-theory
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #2 of 57
Hands Sandon is fast becoming a legend on these boards with these genius posts.

The only problem is that there is something of the 'pearls before swine' effect of necessity.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #3 of 57
I don't particularly care ... I'd prefer a president that was NOT a muslim, but I'd equally prefer a president that was NOT a christian.
Their belief in magic and the supernatural doesn't give me "warm fuzzies" about a persons ability to make rational decisions about things that actually matter.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #4 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I don't particularly care ... I'd prefer a president that was NOT a muslim, but I'd equally prefer a president that was NOT a christian.
Their belief in magic and the supernatural doesn't give me "warm fuzzies" about a persons ability to make rational decisions about things that actually matter.

How about Isaac Newton?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 57
*giggle*

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #6 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Hands Sandon is fast becoming a legend on these boards with these genius posts.

The only problem is that there is something of the 'pearls before swine' effect of necessity.

Hopefully my sarcasm meter is not broken here... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #7 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How about Isaac Newton?

If Isaac Newton were alive today, I doubt he'd be a Christian. Different historical context.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #8 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If Isaac Newton were alive today, I doubt he'd be a Christian. Different historical context.

If Jesus were alive today, I doubt he would be a Christian. He would be going "wow, you guys really took this ball and ran with it pretty far from my original teachings".
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #9 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If Isaac Newton were alive today, I doubt he'd be a Christian. Different historical context.

He wasn't a Christian then - he was more of an occultist.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If Jesus were alive today, I doubt he would be a Christian.

He wasn't a Christian then - he was a Jew.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #11 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

He wasn't a Christian then - he was more of an occultist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

He wasn't a Christian then - he was a Jew.

Every bio I've ever read makes Newton out to be a Christian, and the work he did in life suggests that he was quite committed to the faith, in general. A catholic, no, but that's not surprising given that no enlightenment thinkers really were. I have heard that Da Vinci was part arab, but I don't think I've ever heard that Newton was a Jew -- not that Newton's non-Jewishness really dents a legacy of great Jewish scientists.

I do love how high-minded atheists try to point out unsubstantiated claims like, "Newton would not have been religious had he been alive today." Obviously, there is no way to prove this, but you could looking at a cross-section of today's top scientists. A lot of them aren't atheists. I realize the claim from BR involved christianity, not religion in general, but I'm make a point pre-emptively. Given the much looser distinction today about what is and isn't a Christian, I think it's plausible that Newton would consider himself a "christian" if he were alive today.


Getting back on topic, there isn't much to suggest that Obama is anything but secular.
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post #12 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

...but I don't think I've ever heard that Newton was a Jew...

Sorry. Ummm...Look at the post I was replying to.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #13 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Every bio I've ever read makes Newton out to be a Christian, and the work he did in life suggests that he was quite committed to the faith, in general.

It depends what you mean - he was more of a Rosicrucian and also practiced alchemy - both of which are borderline Christian pursuits.

He also took the view that the Bible has been altered, edited and corrupted (as any rational person will do) and denied the trinity (ditto).

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #14 of 57
My point is that the more we understand the universe, the fewer scientists exist that believe in god, let alone the capital G christian god. Newton's religiosity reflected his times. The chances of such a brilliant person being religious these days...unlikely.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #15 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

My point is that the more we understand the universe, the fewer scientists exist that believe in god, let alone the capital G christian god. Newton's religiosity reflected his times. The chances of such a brilliant person being religious these days...unlikely.

How many scientists do actually believe in God? If the scientific method is applied we should be able to get rough estimates and some statistics.

We know historically many have - even more recently like Einstein, Planck, Heisenburg and Schroedinger...even Darwin - but is it actually true that less and less scientists are believing in some sort of Deity?

According to one poll roughly one third of scientists believe in the US: Link

Not many in US terms where up to 85% according to some polls of the general public are some sort of religionist - agreed. 1 in 3 does not compare to that but the US is a special case - the levels of belief there (and the nature of the beliefs in general I would argue) verge on the pathological.

One in three is low in the US but high in Europe - do even 1 in 3 ordinary people believe in Europe?

I also think it is now quite clear that atheism is a sort of fad - much akin to the sort of outbreaks or religious fervour which often occur in historical cycles - and although there is an epidemic of it at the moment it is not a good time to judge whether religion or science has the upper hand.

Atheism is the fashion and with all fashion many sheep are bleating in tune. When the fashion moves on to something else we can sort the sheep from the goats.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 57
Back OT - I love these threads of Hands, they are the saving grace of this board and pretty much the only ones which contain some some thought and sincere questioning rather than parrotting a neurosis like a dead Norwegian Blue, anyway, I digress.....it is interesting that 'Muslim' is an epithet that a certain type of extremist uses to label Obama. It goes along with 'commie' and such like and means in translation "is Obama a traitor?"

Which in turn means "Is Obama a disgusting scumbag shithead?" (ie what Muslims and Socialists are assumed to be).

Which in turn means "I (the user of the term) am terrified of these things even though - and probably BECAUSE - I know nothing about them and the little I do know is a heap of stinking garbage bearing no relation to facts but I don't care because I am full of hate and need to vent it on anyone different to me"
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Our first black POTUS, Obama, some doubt he's an American, but let's dig deeper and ask the question "Is he a muslim?". What are the implications if he is, especially in regards to terrorism?

Here's some food for thought-

"Yes, there's a new Obama-Muslim conspiracy theory on the right: The evangelical son of one of America's most famous evangelists says that President Barack Obama has allowed the Muslim Brotherhood to become part of the US government and influence administration decisions.

In an interview last week with Newsmax.com, a conservative website (that pushes the Obama-was-born-in-Kenya conspiracy theory), Franklin Graham, an evangelist like his father, Billy Graham, claimed that the fundamentalist Islamic political group has burrowed into the Obama administration and is shaping US foreign policy. Sounding a bit like Glenn Beck, Graham explained:

The Muslim Brotherhood is very strong and active in our country. It's infiltrated every level of our government. Right now we have many of these people that are advising the US military and State Department on how to respond in the Middle East, and it's like asking a fox, like a farmer asking a fox, "How do I protect my henhouse from foxes?" We've brought in Muslims to tell us how to make policy toward Muslim countries. And many of these people we've brought in, I'm afraid, are under the Muslim Brotherhood.

Infiltrated every level of our governmentthat's quite a claim. Yet Graham did not name a single Muslim Brotherhood infiltrator or cite a specific Obama administration decision that has been manipulated by these crafty behind-the-scenes Islamists. (The quotes in the Newsmax article reporting Graham's remarks differ slightly from what he actually said during his interview with Newsmax, according to the video of the interview, which is posted below.)

Though Graham did not back up his charge that Obama has opened the US government to the Muslim Brotherhood, he did say that he believes the president is more concerned with helping Muslims than Christiansboth in the United States and abroad. When the Newsmax interviewer asked Graham if Obama has been doing enough to support Christianity and Christians at home and overseas, Graham replied, "No...If anything, it's the opposite." He added, "The Muslims are protected more in this country than Christians."

Graham did not cite specifics on this point, either. A spokesman said Graham was unable to comment on his remarks to Newsmax since he was en route to Africa.

While Graham did not question Obama's Christian faith during this interview, his comments tracked with the extremist right-wing claim that the president is a secret Muslim. And Graham has raised the matter of an Obama Islamic connection in the past. Last August, he told CNN that because Obama's father had been a Muslim, Obama had a perception "problem." The president's father, who was not involved in Obama's rearing, was born a Muslim, but as an adult he was an atheist. Obama was not raised as a Muslim.

It's no surprise that Franklin Graham is worried about Muslims sneaking into the US government. He has declared Islam "a very evil and wicked religion." Last year, he was disinvited from a National Prayer Breakfast event at the Pentagon after his Islam-bashing became an issue. (Sarah Palin quickly rushed to Graham's rhetorical rescue, pronouncing his excommunication from this ecumenical breakfast a travesty.

For his part, Graham was not at all apologetic about his attacks on Islam. Instead, he called the revoking of his invitation "a slap at all evangelical Christians."*He blamed the White House for orchestrating the move: "I don't know if it's exactly from President Obama. But I'm certain that some of the men around him are very much opposed to what we stand for and what we believe." Graham added, "I just don't understand why the president would be giving Islam a pass." Could it be precisely because the Muslim Brotherhood had infiltrated Obama's circles? Graham didn't say so back then. Perhaps that was before he had discovered this plot."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...spiracy-theory

Obama is a mysterious person who I think is not for the common people but for large corporations and wall street. I could not care what he is all long as the economy was strong and people had jobs to survive.Unfortunately that is not happening at all.
post #18 of 57
It's really strange. I had several of my liberal friends on Facebook suddenly pop up with birther stuff yesterday as well. Marvfox, doesn't even seem like a real account or person.

It seems like someone is sending out some distracting and in my opinion, insulting talking points in an attempt to toss some dust in the air and get people to ignore the real problems out there.

In fact the Washington Post had this story and people should really note the tactics which absolutely involve distortion, logical fallacies and getting people to respond to something other than information.

The claim of course is that the other guys do it so this is why we do it. I'd love to see the story where the other guys are shown to do it though. It isn't as if the Washington Post wouldn't love to do a story about some conservative think tank creating hundreds of talking heads to mouth GOP talking points. Where's that story at?

Quote:
The participants became adept in the craft of the pivot and setting up far-left straw men to make their own left-leaning positions seem more moderate. They jotted their talking points on Media Matters envelopes and heard about the supremacy of storytelling.

You're not crazy. They really are setting up logical fallacies ON PURPOSE to distort a discussion.

Quote:
Media Matters staff handed out feedback forms and told the group about a listserv where policy pointers, last-minute on-screen tutorials and moral support were at their fingertips. The organization was even in the process of hiring its own booking agent to more strategically deploy their talent.

I really wish there were a massive wiki-leaks project devoted to finding and dumping all these emails that go back and forth between the media complex, the talking heads and the party machinery that clearly have been caught doing this multiple times. There isn't even the pretense of being open minded or about anything other than getting a win at any cost any more.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I don't particularly care ... I'd prefer a president that was NOT a muslim, but I'd equally prefer a president that was NOT a christian.

Hear! Hear!!!!!
post #20 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It's really strange. I had several of my liberal friends on Facebook....

Stop right there...... now we know you DO NOT HAVE any LIberal friends!!!!

Tsk, tsk...

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #21 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If Jesus were alive today, I doubt he would be a Christian. He would be going "wow, you guys really took this ball and ran with it pretty far from my original teachings".

Great comments on this thread.
post #22 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How many scientists do actually believe in God? If the scientific method is applied we should be able to get rough estimates and some statistics.

Agreed... but the question needs to be asked much better than that.
Do the believe in "God", as presented by the Bible (or Koran, or...) or do they simply believe that there's the POSSIBILITY of A god.
(There's a huge difference between "believing in God" and simply acknowledging that its non-existance hasn't been proven.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #23 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Agreed... but the question needs to be asked much better than that.
Do the believe in "God", as presented by the Bible (or Koran, or...) or do they simply believe that there's the POSSIBILITY of A god.
(There's a huge difference between "believing in God" and simply acknowledging that its non-existance hasn't been proven.)

True...I was assuming that the belief would be more in the line of believing in God as an abstract possibility rather than a figure outlined in a Scripture.

Surely if the question was 'How many scientists are Christians' then the figure would have to be much lower - in fact the two are very likely mutually exclusive.

For example, Newton as mentioned above, might have been some sort of Christian but he had to take an unorthodox position re the Bible - ie believe it had been altered.

For sure it is not possible to believe in the Bible as the literal word of God and be a scientist. Not a sane and rational one anyway. Other religions may not have the same issue though so mileage may vary.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #24 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Stop right there...... now we know you DO NOT HAVE any LIberal friends!!!!

Tsk, tsk...


Well with me being in the field of education and also still pursuing the arts quite often, you'd be surprised there Sego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Agreed... but the question needs to be asked much better than that.
Do the believe in "God", as presented by the Bible (or Koran, or...) or do they simply believe that there's the POSSIBILITY of A god.
(There's a huge difference between "believing in God" and simply acknowledging that its non-existance hasn't been proven.)

Cosmological arguments for the win!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It's really strange. I had several of my liberal friends on Facebook suddenly pop up with birther stuff yesterday as well. Marvfox, doesn't even seem like a real account or person.

It seems like someone is sending out some distracting and in my opinion, insulting talking points in an attempt to toss some dust in the air and get people to ignore the real problems out there.

In fact the Washington Post had this story and people should really note the tactics which absolutely involve distortion, logical fallacies and getting people to respond to something other than information.

The claim of course is that the other guys do it so this is why we do it. I'd love to see the story where the other guys are shown to do it though. It isn't as if the Washington Post wouldn't love to do a story about some conservative think tank creating hundreds of talking heads to mouth GOP talking points. Where's that story at?



You're not crazy. They really are setting up logical fallacies ON PURPOSE to distort a discussion.



I really wish there were a massive wiki-leaks project devoted to finding and dumping all these emails that go back and forth between the media complex, the talking heads and the party machinery that clearly have been caught doing this multiple times. There isn't even the pretense of being open minded or about anything other than getting a win at any cost any more.

Most interesting reply thus far. I agree...it seems to be a distraction. Whether Obama is Muslim or not (I don't think he is) is immaterial at this point. Of course, there would then be the issue of him lying about his faith, but I think we have other things to worry about.

As for the "birther" thing: I think there is a lot more to that. Don't get me wrong..I've seen no definitive evidence of him being born in Kenya. That said, I've seen some anecdotal evidence to that point. I'm also starting to wonder lately: If this debate is really so insanely stupid, why not just release the birth certificate everyone claims exists? Recent polling suggests a very significant number of Americans believe he's not a natural-born citizen. Why not end the debate and make the birthers look like fools once and for all? As I said, right now I accept that he IS natural-born citizen, but I do wonder.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #26 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Most interesting reply thus far. I agree...it seems to be a distraction. Whether Obama is Muslim or not (I don't think he is) is immaterial at this point. Of course, there would then be the issue of him lying about his faith, but I think we have other things to worry about.

Why not address the issue of WHY some people think it does matter?

Those people are all on your side of the political spectrum - address it.

If my partner started worrying about whether Mr Applebaum next door was Jewish and I kept saying "it's ok, I don't believe he is" then we'd both have a problem. In reality of course I would start to wonder why she even thought about it and NOT whether she was correct.

The question you are avoiding is what makes some people on your side of the fence have an issue about whether he is or not?

I know the answer - but do you?

And if not why not?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #27 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It's really strange. I had several of my liberal friends on Facebook suddenly pop up with birther stuff yesterday as well. Marvfox, doesn't even seem like a real account

Never was there a greater need exposed for an "enemies" option on facebook.

It's not surprising that those who are devout conspiracy theorists (from GW being paid off scientists eager to get rich to BO being an imposter) would leap to defend themselves with more allegations of a conspiratorial nature.

Obviously it's an effective weapon, why else would Donald Trump play the Trump card-

"Whoopi Goldberg got into a furious argument with Donald Trump about President Obama's birth certificate on Wednesday's "The View."
Trump, who has been talking about running for president, has been drawing attention for his comments about Obama's citizenship. He repeated some of them on "The View."
"Why doesn't he show his birth certificate?" Trump said. "Why should he have to?" Whoopi cut in.
"Because I have to and everybody else has to, Whoopi," Trump said. He continued that he believed Obama has a birth certificate, but that he should show it to clear the "pall" hanging over him. Then, he said that it was odd that "nobody from [Obama's] early years remembers him," and that there was "something on that birth certificate that he doesn't like." This last comment seemed to be the final straw for Whoopiand for Barbara Walters.
"That's a terrible thing to say," she said, as Whoopi exclaimed, "oh my God...that's the biggest pile of dog mess I've heard in ages." She continued, "it's not 'cause he's black, is it?" Trump said it had "nothing to do with that."
"Because I've never hear any white president being asked to show his birth certificate," Whoopi said heatedly, pounding her fist into her hand. "When you become the president of the United States of America, you know that he's American. I'm sorry. That's just B.S."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_839927.html
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #28 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I don't particularly care ... I'd prefer a president that was NOT a muslim, but I'd equally prefer a president that was NOT a christian.

You all can have your presidents, dictators, secularists, and all the indifference in the world but I will not settle for less than the King of Kings.

So carry on with your mediocre desires.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #29 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

You all can have your presidents, dictators, secularists, and all the indifference in the world but I will not settle for less than the King of Kings.

So carry on with your mediocre desires.

Fellows

Hehehe
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Most interesting reply thus far. I agree...it seems to be a distraction. Whether Obama is Muslim or not (I don't think he is) is immaterial at this point. Of course, there would then be the issue of him lying about his faith, but I think we have other things to worry about.

Yes, the real issues like spending the U.S. into insolvency outweigh religion or birthplace.
Quote:
As for the "birther" thing: I think there is a lot more to that. Don't get me wrong..I've seen no definitive evidence of him being born in Kenya. That said, I've seen some anecdotal evidence to that point. I'm also starting to wonder lately: If this debate is really so insanely stupid, why not just release the birth certificate everyone claims exists? Recent polling suggests a very significant number of Americans believe he's not a natural-born citizen. Why not end the debate and make the birthers look like fools once and for all? As I said, right now I accept that he IS natural-born citizen, but I do wonder.

I think at this point it is being stoked by the left themselves for the purposes of substanciating claims of racism. As I've always stated, the first I remember reading about birthplace in the 2008 election was the NY Times investigating whether McCain was eligible due to him having been born in the American controlled Panama Canal zone.

Like most things with the left, I think they threw this out there right after the Republican nomination process was wrapping up hoping to damage the front runner but not imagining it would boomerang back on them. (The left appears to have a gigantic blindspot with regard to hypocrisy.)

The Wikipedia entry on the Republican nomination notes the following...


CNN had cancelled a debate originally scheduled for February 28, saying that McCain was the "presumptive nominee."

Along with this....

John McCain officially clinched the Republican presidential nomination on March 4, 2008, sweeping the primaries in Ohio, Texas, Rhode Island, and Vermont.[59] That night, Mike Huckabee withdrew from the race and endorsed McCain.

So I see this as all originating from an attempt to damage McCain right as he was the presumptive nominee and when it was too late to really go back and have anything but a profoundly weaked second choice in the event something about the claim of being ineligible stuck.

Again to me the thinking is no different than what happened with Bush and Kerry. The media is so absentmindedly pursuing bad items about Republicans that no one even bothers to look into the actual Democratic candidates. Much like how Kerry reported "for duty" and no one in the media or the left had actually looked into the validity of him using his own war record, no one on the left thought about actually looking into eligibility requirements of Democratic candidates before flinging something out there about McCain.

So again, much like how when the left was dropping fake letters about Bush from 30-34 years prior, suddenly it becomes fine to look into say, purple hearts and how they were acquired, or length of service, if we get to ask what commanding officers thought of Bush, what did they also think about Kerry and it ends up exploding in their face.

I don't mean it explodes in their face like actually makes one ineligible, but does explode in that it does damage in a way they hadn't thought of or intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why not address the issue of WHY some people think it does matter?

Those people are all on your side of the political spectrum - address it.

This is a presumption on your part. As I've noted the thing that keeps bringing this up are folks on the left. You seem to forget that Obama was very narrowly made the Democratic nominee and while he did win the nomination, there are plenty of people who wanted Clinton. Likewise there are still plenty of people out there more than willing to sink the hooks in for their place in line in the event that he loses, or decides not to run and the party suddenly looks for new leadership. There is plenty of discussion about Obama having a challenger to the nomination in 2012.

Quote:
If my partner started worrying about whether Mr Applebaum next door was Jewish and I kept saying "it's ok, I don't believe he is" then we'd both have a problem. In reality of course I would start to wonder why she even thought about it and NOT whether she was correct.

Perhaps it also might distract you from the point that she is sleeping with your neighbor. You mentally become worried about her racism and how to cure it and meanwhile she has no suspicion from you about knocking the boots with him.

Quote:
The question you are avoiding is what makes some people on your side of the fence have an issue about whether he is or not?

I know the answer - but do you?

And if not why not?

The issue about his or the right side of the fence is easy to understand. It is a distraction that can be used to taint someone. On the left it can be used to bring down a weakened leader whom you want to replace.

There are motivations to distract on all sides. The best thing to do is not be distracted.

Clearly all these threads are transparent attempts at distractions and I'm sure you see it just as so many others do.

Shouldn't the question really be, why is Hands so desperate to change the discussion to these inconsequential distractions and what is the motivation behind that?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Hehehe

I know I am a bit sassy at times but I could not help myself.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

True...I was assuming that the belief would be more in the line of believing in God as an abstract possibility rather than a figure outlined in a Scripture.

Surely if the question was 'How many scientists are Christians' then the figure would have to be much lower - in fact the two are very likely mutually exclusive.

For example, Newton as mentioned above, might have been some sort of Christian but he had to take an unorthodox position re the Bible - ie believe it had been altered.

For sure it is not possible to believe in the Bible as the literal word of God and be a scientist. Not a sane and rational one anyway. Other religions may not have the same issue though so mileage may vary.

Accounting for an abstract possibility is not the same as belief. Sego, this is one area where you very consistently abuse language through the use of extremely non-mainstream definitions in order to make your argument seem stronger than it is.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Y...but I will not settle for less than the King of Kings.

Fellows

Dare I ask who this "King of Kings" might be?? (I'd LIKE to think that someone has finally recognized MY abilities!)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

This is a presumption on your part. As I've noted the thing that keeps bringing this up are folks on the left. You seem to forget that Obama was very narrowly made the Democratic nominee and while he did win the nomination, there are plenty of people who wanted Clinton. Likewise there are still plenty of people out there more than willing to sink the hooks in for their place in line in the event that he loses, or decides not to run and the party suddenly looks for new leadership. There is plenty of discussion about Obama having a challenger to the nomination in 2012.

I don't believe anyone on the Left is questioning whether he is a Muslim.

Even if they wanted to it would play into the hands of the Right - they are the ones who have an issue with Islam.

Quote:
Perhaps it also might distract you from the point that she is sleeping with your neighbor. You mentally become worried about her racism and how to cure it and meanwhile she has no suspicion from you about knocking the boots with him.

Actually no....I am a polygamist. I resolved all my issues regarding sexual jealousy years ago along with all other vestiges of Judeo-Christian ersatz morality.

Quote:
The issue about his or the right side of the fence is easy to understand. It is a distraction that can be used to taint someone. On the left it can be used to bring down a weakened leader whom you want to replace.

Easy for you to understand maybe....I find it very difficult to classify.

Quote:
Clearly all these threads are transparent attempts at distractions and I'm sure you see it just as so many others do.

Shouldn't the question really be, why is Hands so desperate to change the discussion to these inconsequential distractions and what is the motivation behind that?

Again no, I find these threads of Hands to be bordering on genius and I'll tell you why - he has single-handledly raised the discussion to vastly higher levels (not hard to do around here granted but it does curiously, happen quite seldom) and pinpointed the hypocrisy and obsession underlying everything the Right claim to stand for with laser precision.

And they don't like. You don't like it. And you can't ignore it.

That Trumpy is genius.....you won't get anywhere near that if you raided all the millions of pulp warehouses brimfull of the decades worth of discarded Ayn Rand's queued for recycling....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Accounting for an abstract possibility is not the same as belief. Sego, this is one area where you very consistently abuse language through the use of extremely non-mainstream definitions in order to make your argument seem stronger than it is.

I just mean that if consideration of the universe leads a scientist to 'believe in God' then that would not be the same as belief in a 'God' derived from Scripture and the two might be mutually antagonistic.

I'm sure you even agree with it if you ponder awhile...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #36 of 57
But the overwhelming majority does not. I am an atheist and allow for the possibility of a higher intelligence. The two are not mutually exclusive. I also don't choose to go around anthropomorphizing it or even giving two shits about it until (and here's that word you hate, but it's a fucking important one) a shred of evidence actually supports such a claim.

Allowing for a possibility is not belief. Stop manipulating the statistics.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't believe anyone on the Left is questioning whether he is a Muslim.

Even if they wanted to it would play into the hands of the Right - they are the ones who have an issue with Islam.

The person in these forums who is questioning it is from a leftist persuasion so you not believing it really doesn't matter.

The rationale is easy to understand though. The Democratic vote is profoundly weighted with African-American voters. If you are a Democratic leader and you want President Obama to step down so you can take his place, but do not want to lose the entire black vote you do the following. You use the birther issue to cast suspicion on an already badly performing president. Then when he becomes unelectable due to either his performance, his ineligibility or other candidates besting him in a primary challenge, then you not only get to replace the person, you get to pin the voters most likely to flee or forsake you back into your ranks by declaring the other side racist!

Consider this honestly Sego, how can someone who isn't African-American challenge Obama for president without being called racist or losing the black vote if not for tossing this birther thing out there?

Quote:
Actually no....I am a polygamist. I resolved all my issues regarding sexual jealousy years ago along with all other vestiges of Judeo-Christian ersatz morality.

Thank goodness, now I'll never need concern myself with your wife chasing me down due to our escapades.

Quote:
Easy for you to understand maybe....I find it very difficult to classify.

Thus I elaborated further on it for you.

Quote:
Again no, I find these threads of Hands to be bordering on genius and I'll tell you why - he has single-handledly raised the discussion to vastly higher levels (not hard to do around here granted but it does curiously, happen quite seldom) and pinpointed the hypocrisy and obsession underlying everything the Right claim to stand for with laser precision.

And they don't like. You don't like it. And you can't ignore it.

That Trumpy is genius.....you won't get anywhere near that if you raided all the millions of pulp warehouses brimfull of the decades worth of discarded Ayn Rand's queued for recycling....

Try again. Everyone had their tongue in their cheek. Perhaps you did not. Perhaps you had your tongue between my cheeks doing that wonderful thing you do loverboy.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But the overwhelming majority does not. I am an atheist and allow for the possibility of a higher intelligence. The two are not mutually exclusive. I also don't choose to go around anthropomorphizing it or even giving two shits about it until (and here's that word you hate, but it's a fucking important one) a shred of evidence actually supports such a claim.

Allowing for a possibility is not belief. Stop manipulating the statistics.

That's a phrase I hate not a word!!!

Sometimes BR I think you are a bit reductionist.... It's almost as if you can't accept something unless it has the 'official authorized' stamp. Not sure this should surprise me really but I wonder if I came on here under a false nic "Dawkins is God" or maybe "Jehovahkill" or something and built up some cred with a few well-aimed anti-religious barbs and THEN said what I said above....

I kind of think you'd agree. I might test it when a suitable amount of time has passed and your guard is down.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's a phrase I hate not a word!!!

Sometimes BR I think you are a bit reductionist.... It's almost as if you can't accept something unless it has the 'official authorized' stamp. Not sure this should surprise me really but I wonder if I came on here under a false nic "Dawkins is God" or maybe "Jehovahkill" or something and built up some cred with a few well-aimed anti-religious barbs and THEN said what I said above....

I kind of think you'd agree. I might test it when a suitable amount of time has passed and your guard is down.


Doubtful. I see where you're going with it. But, no.

I do, however, believe that scientists appreciate the wonder and beauty of the universe more than any religious person does. I believe scientists are more in tune with how wonderful and special it is to live on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam (thanks for that one, Carl Sagan).

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The person in these forums who is questioning it is from a leftist persuasion so you not believing it really doesn't matter.

He is not questioning it. He is outlining others obsession with it.

Quote:
The rationale is easy to understand though. The Democratic vote is profoundly weighted with African-American voters. If you are a Democratic leader and you want President Obama to step down so you can take his place, but do not want to lose the entire black vote you do the following. You use the birther issue to cast suspicion on an already badly performing president. Then when he becomes unelectable due to either his performance, his ineligibility or other candidates besting him in a primary challenge, then you not only get to replace the person, you get to pin the voters most likely to flee or forsake you back into your ranks by declaring the other side racist!

That sounds plausible. But nowhere near as plausible as what our old friend Occam would point out: that the lunatics who oppose Obama by any means because they are Right wingers can't see past his colour and to them that means un-American which in turn means NON-American.

It really is that simple I'm afraid.

But, insane as they are, we're not talking above birthers are we (nice swerve!!!)? The thread title is at the top...check it out.

Quote:
Consider this honestly Sego, how can someone who isn't African-American challenge Obama for president without being called racist or losing the black vote if not for tossing this birther thing out there?

You have a point and that may be a factor... I don't know because I am not in the US to observe it. All I can say is that on occasion I do get to meet Christian Fundies here in Europe (US ones) and the ones that believe this - and there are many I have met - also push the 'Muslim' schtick and they are ALL without exception pretty hardcore Republican Right and pretty much all borderline racist.

Even if your theory is true it does not explain this group. And there are very many of them.

Quote:
Thank goodness, now I'll never need concern myself with your wife chasing me down due to our escapades.

You need not worry about her chasing you. She is a woman of exquisite taste.

Quote:
Try again. Everyone had their tongue in their cheek. Perhaps you did not. Perhaps you had your tongue between my cheeks doing that wonderful thing you do loverboy.

You really must stop these fantasies Trumps really.... there's a war on again now, no need to sublimate these urges - it is totally legitimate to project them into the fields of military hardware, nationalism and emasculating the enemy.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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