The Wicked Shall Cease Their Troubling

A related quote:

"Ignorance is bliss."

It's a nice sentiment but is it true Fellows?

I mean in Biblical Scripture there is no scheme where the world does actually 'get turned right' by anyone....in fact, quite the contrary.

The end time prophecies of the Bible show the world getting 'more wrong' in fact.

So really, I applaud your sentiments but they are not Scriptural

Who are you trying to convince here?

Sometimes it pays to read right to the end of the book.

Sometimes it pays to not take fiction literally.

Sometimes it interesting how people get about things that are "fiction".

Like it hurts them somehow.

So I should hang back and wait for him to fix everything?

It does when people vote based on this fiction. It does when I'm treated like a second-class citizen.

Again, it really doesn't sound like you're trying to convince us.

Again, it really doesn't seem like you are trying to convince others.

Did you join a new church recently or something?

He's not. But he's also not trying to convince who you think he is either.

A message is simply that. Accept it at face value or not. Believe it or don't. Try to get the positive value out of it or see it as something negative. These are all your choices and there may be others as well.

As for your previous message. I am sorry that you feel put upon by others. I am also sorry to see you reflect much of that back here on this board. I may disagree with you and I might voice anger at some of the things you have stated, but I have also tried to befriend you. You don't have to change your beliefs. You don't have to accept mine. But we should be able to discuss them, argue over them and still see eye to eye at the end. Even if we still disagree. And I will tell you if I disagree, but that does not mean I think you are a second class citizen. Not even slightly.

Why do you have this view? Would you mind discussing what formed it - respectfully, it's quite safe.

What I mean is have you tried all the religions? Tested them?

Why can't you say for example "There are many ways - but Jesus is the one that works for me".

This sort of exclusivism smacks to me of tribalism and maybe a little doubt.

I don't get it.... I am a believer of sorts but I don't think I have the 'only way' or even that there is one. I'm quite happy to believe that you and even BR are on the right path - for YOU (I know both you and BR think that you have the sole truth but that doesn't stop me hahahaha ) and will probably both get to 'heaven'.

I just don't get this 'my way is the only way' stuff.

We are supposed to be One Nation, Indivisible. But you godfolk just can't let that be. When I get into a classroom, I'm going to have to either have my patriotism questioned or be forced to utter a false oath when I recite the pledge of allegiance in the morning. Get your fucking gods out of our fucking government. E pluribus unum was good enough for the founders and that should god damn well be good enough for us now.

Why not maybe 'get your fucking patriotism out'?

You are surprising me more and more these days BR - patriotism ??? Ffs.....

It looks like BR is angry again and there might even be some spittle on his computer monitor.

Relax BR. It is quite possible to peacefully co-exist with 99% of the people of faith be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, whatever. I know I do, every single day.

Oh good I got that shit covered without the whole God/Jesus stuff.

Still can't help thinking there might be some missing ingredients though.....

That I cannot help, change, or otherwise take responsibility for except to say I have no problem with the pledge as it stands. I do not force you to say it. And when you do say it I do not force you to repeat the words, under God, in the process. The pledge was changed before my time. I will not try to distance myself from the words "you godfolk" except to say, I am not sure who you are covering with that phrase.

If you don't like the words in the pledge. Omit them. Suddenly, your problem there is solved. Or simply skip the pledge altogether. You have that right too.

It's a bit disingenuous though Fellows.... you may not be forcing anything (I have my doubts about what BR might countenance given the right - or wrong - circumstances) but that is not the point.

You are still exerting a kind of pressure by maintaing that the beer is the only drink that is 'real' and that there are penalties for drinking other types of beverage.

I don't see:

a) where that comes from (in the human psyche I mean - I know where it comes from in doctrine)

b) Why anyone would - or would want - to believe it

c) why people do not see it is an unspiritual and possibly immoral - certainly unethical - position.

You never really answered my question about why you think like this.

The way I see it we are all - those of us interested in these matters - on a search for truth. And to find the truth one needs logic and reason.

So one should always be prepared to discuss and analyse....

[QUOTE=Fellowship;1836258]

You are misunderstanding me Fellows. I am not questioning your belief - I am merely asking why you believe you are exclusively right and HOW you arrived at that position.

Out it this way: if there is a heaven I believe you may well be in there and even - at a stretch BR - alongside me, maybe we will have learnt things and can continue our discussions on a more elevated level.

But I do not think - and apologies if I am wrong - that you actually DO believe that I and BR will be there to do that.

So my question is why? And how did you reach this position? I'm not looking to argue..I am genuinely interested in why some people think like this in a religious context because it is foreign to me.


But why? How do you know he said he was what you believe he was? There is much evidence against your position and I'm just trying to see on what basis you are rejecting it.


We're not talking about freedom - we're talking about the NATURE of beliefs and why people adopt them. At least I am.

An example: I believe certain beliefs are wrong - not religious ones necessarily, let's say racist beliefs. I accept people can believe racist things, they are free to do so BUT I THINK THEY ARE WRONG. As in immoral.

And I can argue this position. And I will.

But if Christians really believe that "I am free to believe what I want but I am wrong" then they should likewise argue WHY. Morally I mean.

But they don't.....this 'love the sinner, hate the sin' just doesn't cut it.

We need to know WHY...who knows...we may even convert!


BUt that's not what I said....I believe you may have a version of the truth just as Mr X may have a version of the truth. None of us can possibly know.

Not you and not an atheist claiming there is no God.

So why say that "THE ONLY WAY IS JESUS".

This is just the flip-side of BRs "GOD DOES NOT EXIST".


Me too. I feel strongly about it.

I have yet to hear the logical arguments. I hear a lot of Scripture quoting but reasoned analysis not so much


No..I appreciate that...you are an exception. I think you try to be tolerant and inclusive and perhaps loving even, though I don't know never having met you but I'm talking about the over-reaching doctrine.

One does not have to follow things wholemeal. One can find reasons for things one disagrees with.

For example, in all my Islamic sympathies I do not find it necessary to believe that one should stone people or cut their hands off etc.

So I research - and what do I find? That these things are just inventions of men...though millions of Mullahs would deny that.

Same in Christianity - when I hear about gays (or anyone else) roasting in hell I also have pause.

Because I know one thing: if God exists - IF - then HE is not a vengeful, hateful God. So right there I narrow down the possibilities and exclude the vast majority of possible religious thought from my search.

It's important.


Again....did he? How do we know? Why do we have to just accept this stuff?

You may say it says so in the Bible but does it? Did it originally? Do we really want to know....I do....but do religious people?


Again...that is not logical and rational argument. It is a quote.

Logically and rationally we need to examine many things: who was this John? Did he write it? Did he know Christ? Has his book been tampered with over millennia?

Why take all this on trust?

I may have the right to skip the pledge, but it also could put my job in jeopardy if I get parents bitching to the administration. And of course, the original pledge did not involve god at all. It was "One Nation, Indivisible." Then the Knights of Columbus lobbied the shit out of Congress and combined with fears of Communism, the pledge was changed to something VERY divisive.

So, fuck your altered bullshit divisive pledge. We are supposed to be One Nation, Indivisible. E PLURIBUS UNUM. All of the wonderful ideals this country was founded on utterly shit upon by the religious right.

And Fellows, since you opened the door...there's a wonderful Bad Religion song off their most recent album, "The Dissent of Man," that addresses your original point.

Why.

Why do you believe Jesus is who he said he is?

Why is Mohammehd (sp?) NOT who he claimed to be?

Why is Joseph Smith NOT telling us the truth?

Why do you not believe that Zeus is the supreme being? (Stories about him have been around much longer than stories about J.C.Waterwalker.)

If Jesus is beer then I'm bellying up.

You're a teacher? In a government school?

Interesting. I am fairly certain that my kids have not said the pledge in public school for the past few years. Most of the kids these days don't even know the pledge. They come into boy scouts and have to be taught that, and a few other staples from my youth like the star spangled banner for instance. It is good to know that some public schools still do the pledge. However, i am still fairly certain that your job would not be lost if you did not say the pledge. There is plenty of legal precedent that would protect you form that type of action. Or if you simply said one nation (pause) indivisible, I doubt many if any would notice. However it is your right to be angry about it if you want to.

But with unions being stripped of power and being on probation the first two years once I'm in a classroom...yeah...can't rock the boat.

Why's the original pledge and motto not good enough for you? You really think that "In God We Trust" is really better than "E Pluribus Unum" in describing what America is supposed to be about? You really think that "One Nation, Indivisible" isn't more powerful a statement?

When I saw this thread I first thought that trumptman had decided to move on