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The Wicked Shall Cease Their Troubling - Page 3

post #81 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Segovius, the master wordsmith superhero who swoops down in defense of misused religious terms, does the same fucking thing he so despises with atheism.

ATHEISM IS MERELY A LACK OF BELIEF IN A DEITY. IT DOES NOT BEGIN WITH AFFIRMATIVELY PROCLAIMING A DEITY CANNOT EXIST.

Not exactly:


You are saying that the form of atheism you subscribe to is the most inclusive sense of the term. Fine. You do realize that this term can be used in these variations by different people...even those who call themselves atheists?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Now, I may say certain deities that certain people believe in don't exist. The Christian god is hocus pocus bullshit. I say that because such a god as described by christians and the bible is largely self-contradictory.

So, you can say that you believe that certain deities that certain people believe in don't exist. That you believe the Christian god is hocus pocus bullshit. You say that because, in your interpretation, the God as described by christians and the bible is largely self-contradictory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But nowhere, nowhere do I rule out a higher power existing.

Good for you.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked KingOfSomewhereHot:

Is there any specific evidence for God that you would accept? What would that evidence look like? What would it be? How would it present itself? What thing or things, if they happened or existed, would make you go "Holy cow! God does exist!"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #82 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Segovius, the master wordsmith superhero who swoops down in defense of misused religious terms, does the same fucking thing he so despises with atheism.

ATHEISM IS MERELY A LACK OF BELIEF IN A DEITY. IT DOES NOT BEGIN WITH AFFIRMATIVELY PROCLAIMING A DEITY CANNOT EXIST.

Now, I may say certain deities that certain people believe in don't exist. The Christian god is hocus pocus bullshit. I say that because such a god as described by christians and the bible is largely self-contradictory. But nowhere, nowhere do I rule out a higher power existing. But until a falsifiable definition of god even exists, the whole debate is pointless. You can't define it so how can it be proved or disproved?

So, fuck off with the mischaracterization of atheists. We've had this discussion before. Cut it out.

If you are really having trouble with the concept, watch this video. It will help. Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk

Maybe GOD is total bullshit also
post #83 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Maybe GOD is total bullshit also

Fuck, that nails it......

All those hours of debate here, centuries of research down the through millennia, every philosopher and theologian that ever lived, the whole of human questing from ancient Greece to quantum mechanics...

Pack up the tents boys, the final frontier of the ineffable has fallen to the human mind.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #84 of 159
Sego, I don't know what to say in response to your rant there. You completely misunderstand and misrepresent what atheism is. The field doesn't seem level here when you get to define all the terms the way you want them. Also, it feels like you were touched by evidence as a child based on your wholly unnatural aversion to requiring it to support points of view. Of course, only in the arena of religious thought does anyone get away with lack of knowledge or proof somehow being a virtue.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #85 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Sego, I don't know what to say in response to your rant there. You completely misunderstand and misrepresent what atheism is. The field doesn't seem level here when you get to define all the terms the way you want them. Also, it feels like you were touched by evidence as a child based on your wholly unnatural aversion to requiring it to support points of view. Of course, only in the arena of religious thought does anyone get away with lack of knowledge or proof somehow being a virtue.

It's possible you have a point, more than one even, but answer me this then:

You say this:

Quote:
Now, I may say certain deities that certain people believe in don't exist. The Christian god is hocus pocus bullshit. I say that because such a god as described by christians and the bible is largely self-contradictory.

I agree 100% and have said so repeatedly.

You said this:

Quote:
But nowhere, nowhere do I rule out a higher power existing.

I agree 100% and have said so repeatedly.

So my next question would be: so what's the fucking problem??????.....you and me are saying EXACTLY the same thing......

Or are we?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #86 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Fuck, that nails it......

All those hours of debate here, centuries of research down the through millennia, every philosopher and theologian that ever lived, the whole of human questing from ancient Greece to quantum mechanics...

Pack up the tents boys, the final frontier of the ineffable has fallen to the human mind.

How was it any different than what you do??

All these millennia of scientific research and discoveries constantly looking at things that were once thought to be the influence of "god" which we now have an understanding of... we now know how they work and why they work and that they're just natural processes... nothing to do with a god. And you would choose to ignore any and all of that as "bullshit".

It would seem caveman #2 has gone out and done his homework and TRIED (with some success) to understand the world around him. Caveman #1 is still uttering exactly the same "a being must have made this", with nothing to back him up but his own feelings.

What evidence would I accept?... well... what evidence do you HAVE??
I'll accept any quantitative, provable evidence... no hearsay allowed. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." is as applicable to theology as it is to science.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #87 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

On another note... If my characterization of religion is wrong, please tell me where it's wrong... I would love to see the supporting evidence for your claims of a divinity or the existence of "heaven" or "hell".
Really... I would LOVE to see that evidence. But every time I ask for it, I am summarily dismissed with some form of "you just don't understand faith."

What type of evidence do you want? Do you want historical evidence? Do you want consensus of viewpoints? Scientific proof means there would be a repeatable experiment or test. Regardless of what most people claim we don't do this to deal with society or people. If you are married we don't say prove it, and you bust out with the test tubes and beakers.

So clarify what type of evidence you desire. Can we prove scientifically that you exist? What's the control? What's repeatable? Etc.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #88 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

How was it any different than what you do??

Because the poster in question is a notorious drive-by borderline-troll.

I'm trying to have a debate.

Quote:
All these millennia of scientific research and discoveries constantly looking at things that were once thought to be the influence of "god" which we now have an understanding of... we now know how they work and why they work and that they're just natural processes... nothing to do with a god. And you would choose to ignore any and all of that as "bullshit".

Two points here:

1) This statement of yours is simplistic and exactly the sort of thing that I have in mind when I compare with the 'thought' fundies are prone too.

Fundies: God makes thunder...

Rationalist: now we know the mechanism of thunder that proves God does not exist...

Do you really not consider that God could have made the mechanism?

Why could God have not instituted evolution for example: Ok fundies refuse to believe that and get angry but why do atheists play on their ground? IE - we know evolution is true so that proves God does not exist.

It only proves the Bible is not true. That's all it does. And we don't need atheists for that - the Church of England has been doing it for centuries. And more effectively.

Quote:
It would seem caveman #2 has gone out and done his homework and TRIED (with some success) to understand the world around him.

He has evolved, I grant you that....he is hitting people with more subtle things than clubs these days but in some ways he may well understand less....

Quote:
Caveman #1 is still uttering exactly the same "a being must have made this", with nothing to back him up but his own feelings.

Exactly my point.....maybe Caveman 2 is NOT INTERESTED IN PROVING THINGS.

Maybe Caveman 2 IS QUITE HAPPY WITH HIS FEELINGS

Of course Caveman 2 is also not interested in converting other people and is happy to mind his own business so maybe he doesn't need any proof...what would he do with it?

Quote:
What evidence would I accept?... well... what evidence do you HAVE??
I'll accept any quantitative, provable evidence... no hearsay allowed. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." is as applicable to theology as it is to science.

I've got a better question:

What do you need evidence OF?

Most if not all of the Bible has been taken apart and shown to be in error and man-made.

That leaves merely 'concepts' of God and these can well be up their with other concepts of which there is no evidence. It could be a model. A model formed thousands of years ago with all the inherent weaknesses of the time and place it was first conceived.

You can argue that it is not a such applicable - and in many cases I'd agree - but you seem to be ignoring the model and it's effectiveness or lack of it and instead deriding what it is a model of.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #89 of 159
I'll ask BR and KingOfSomewhereHot again:
  • Is there any specific evidence for God that you would accept?
  • What would that evidence look like?
  • How would it present itself?
  • What thing or things, if they happened or existed, would make you go "Holy cow! God does exist!"?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #90 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'll ask BR and KingOfSomewhereHot again:
  • Is there any specific evidence for God that you would accept?
  • What would that evidence look like?
  • How would it present itself?
  • What thing or things, if they happened or existed, would make you go "Holy cow! God does exist!"?

<whistles>

Anyone for charades?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #91 of 159
Thread Starter 
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #92 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Praise God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhJYN...eature=related

Fellows

i have to take issues with this

why do people need these crotches to lean on?

also that song suck majorly btw fyi
It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane - Proffeser Dawkin
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It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane - Proffeser Dawkin
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post #93 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gods rottwieler View Post

i have to take issues with this

why do people need these crotches to lean on?

also that song suck majorly btw fyi

First of all I don't take you seriously.

After this and this is just a one time favor that I am even addressing you first hand.

Your issue is not with me. Your problem is with God.

You need to sort that out for yourself. Nobody will do that for you.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #94 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

First of all I don't take you seriously.

After this and this is just a one time favor that I am even addressing you first hand.

Your issue is not with me. Your problem is with God.

You need to sort that out for yourself. Nobody will do that for you.

Fellows

why tho? is not so cristian i think

maybe you think you are too good to discuss? or maybe you think to discuss beliefs is bad but then you posted the videos

this is 1 reason - apart from atheists are always more intellgient - that more and more people become atheist

is always the same this attitude like cristians or religious are better an know so much more than the stupid people
It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane - Proffeser Dawkin
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It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane - Proffeser Dawkin
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post #95 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gods rottwieler View Post

why tho? is not so cristian i think

maybe you think you are too good to discuss? or maybe you think to discuss beliefs is bad but then you posted the videos

this is 1 reason - apart from atheists are always more intellgient - that more and more people become atheist

is always the same this attitude like cristians or religious are better an know so much more than the stupid people

If you will review your disrespectful posts which precede this one you will see that you are the one who insists that I need a "Crotch" to lean on.

When and if you come to a point in your life when you do truly desire to have a serious conversation about anything with me I will be there and willing to go.

But with a post count of single digits I will reserve time for now.

If you can show that you are truly a legit member and also demonstrate that you can hold a serious conversation without insults from the get-go I will gladly consider chatting with you here at the boards.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #96 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Your issue is not with me. Your problem is with God.

but WHICH god is his issue with?... Jehovah?, Zeus?, Shiva?, Ganesh?, Allah?, Odin?, Flying Spaghetti Monster?, Jesus?, Vishnu?,...

There are just so many to choose from, how do you know WHICH one is the real god?


As for evidence... any REAL evidence would be nice... let's hear what you have and see how it stands up. By "real"... I'm trying to discard hearsay and anecdotal stories that are unsupportable and can't be distinguished from fiction. ie: "Because the Bible says so" is NOT proof or evidence of ANYthing... It's been proven false in too many instances.

(Obviously, there is no way to prove that A GOD doesn't exist... it's the nature of the beast... You also can't prove that A GOD does exist.
What I'm looking for is evidence to support anyone's specific "God"... such as is depicted in the Bible, or Koran, or various Greek, Roman, Hindu, Norse, etc legends.
You say you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus ... lets see some evidence that shows this is more than just a child's imaginary friend.

If he's so keen on having a "personal relationship" with ME (and presumably all of humanity), then why doesn't he talk to me? Why doesn't he ever stop by for coffee? What's He afraid of?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #97 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post


(Obviously, there is no way to prove that A GOD doesn't exist... it's the nature of the beast... You also can't prove that A GOD does exist.

I agree nor do I wish to prove anything.
Quote:
What I'm looking for is evidence to support anyone's specific "God"... such as is depicted in the Bible, or Koran, or various Greek, Roman, Hindu, Norse, etc legends.

The poster which I replied to knows well which God I believe he has a problem with. I argue that he has a problem with that God. Not me.

It is his choice to make up his mind if that bothers him that he has an issue with God.
Quote:
You say you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus ... lets see some evidence that shows this is more than just a child's imaginary friend.

I think you forgot that I am not intending to "prove" anything.
Quote:
If he's so keen on having a "personal relationship" with ME (and presumably all of humanity), then why doesn't he talk to me? Why doesn't he ever stop by for coffee? What's He afraid of?

Don't give up on Jesus.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #98 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Don't give up on Jesus.

Hard to "give up" on something that doesn't exist.


The comments soliciting evidence were more directed at MJ ... sorry. (Though I don't really expect him to provide any either.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #99 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

but WHICH god is his issue with?... Jehovah?, Zeus?, Shiva?, Ganesh?, Allah?, Odin?, Flying Spaghetti Monster?, Jesus?, Vishnu?,...

There are just so many to choose from, how do you know WHICH one is the real god?

Personally I think that God is not knowable or describable so in one sense they are all 'wrong' but that does not mean that 'God' does not exist.

It is fairly likely though that human conceptions of this entity are uniformly incorrect.

Quote:
As for evidence... any REAL evidence would be nice... let's hear what you have and see how it stands up. By "real"... I'm trying to discard hearsay and anecdotal stories that are unsupportable and can't be distinguished from fiction. ie: "Because the Bible says so" is NOT proof or evidence of ANYthing... It's been proven false in too many instances.

I question that, I really do.

It's very difficult to imagine an atheist who would actually consider any submitted evidence.

Quote:
(Obviously, there is no way to prove that A GOD doesn't exist... it's the nature of the beast... You also can't prove that A GOD does exist.

What I'm looking for is evidence to support anyone's specific "God"... such as is depicted in the Bible, or Koran, or various Greek, Roman, Hindu, Norse, etc legends.

I don't agree with the first part of this sentence above - we'll come back to the second paragraph in a minute - I do think you CAN prove 'A' God does not exist.

For example - let's take the FSM as it is a modern example. We can say for sure the following:

1) There have been no sightings of such an entity

2) No scripture has been sent down claiming to be the book of such an entity

3) the FSM does not appear in references before a specific date.

4) No-one claims contact with an FSM

5) People DO claim they have created it.

So taking point 5 we could prove that it is a fiction.

Likewise, if another God - Biblical say or Qur'anic - is likewise a fiction it is provable. We may not have the evidence yet but it is provable IF it is a man-made fiction.

Clearly one can prove - and this has been done many times beyond doubt - that certain scriptures have been embroidered and altered and that the characters therein ARE fictitious.

For example: it is now well known academically that the Jews worshipped a wife of Jehovah alongside him and that a schism that disapproved of this engaged in a power struggle and eventually won rewriting the religions as monotheist - which in fact it was not strictly speaking.

So the later Jehovah is not the same as the earlier Jehovah and they are mutually exclusive. At least one is therefore false.

We can do this to a greater or lesser extent with all such Gods.

But this does not mean 'GOD DOES NOT EXIST' and when atheists draw this conclusion they are being dishonest or just ignorant.

Quote:
You say you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus ... lets see some evidence that shows this is more than just a child's imaginary friend.

A distinction needs to be made for a fruitful discussion:

1) Moses goes up Mt Sinai - claims to meet God. Muhammad in his cave etc....

2) Mr X thousands of years later DOES NOT meet God. He just BELIEVES that Moses did.

It's a simplification but - imho - is vitally important. These two states are vastly different and cannot be lumped together.

Most people nowadays would fall into category 2. Those that claim to fall into Category 1 - ie they have met God or experienced Him - can easily be tested. Most will be found to be insane.

I do not believe that the remainder will be found to be Prophets in the league of Moses or Muhammad so we can discount them.

All we really have is people in Category 2...they just believe God exists...how can there be proof? They are entitled to that belief...it is a Moses or a Muhammad you should ask for proof...not the followers.

Quote:
If he's so keen on having a "personal relationship" with ME (and presumably all of humanity), then why doesn't he talk to me? Why doesn't he ever stop by for coffee? What's He afraid of?

Maybe He does? How do you know He doesn't talk to you? How do you know He doesn't stop by for coffee?

I'm not being flippant - I just am assuming that you have a more sophisticated view of God than most religionists and don't expect some old guy with a beard turing up in a cloud.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #100 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

The poster which I replied to knows well which God I believe he has a problem with. I argue that he has a problem with that God.

It just occurred to me that you just seemed to acknowledge that there are, in fact, multiple gods.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #101 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Hard to "give up" on something that doesn't exist.

The comments soliciting evidence were more directed at MJ ... sorry. (Though I don't really expect him to provide any either.)

Wait...you say you are looking for evidence....now you say you know the truth of this matter.

So what do you need evidence for?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #102 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Hard to "give up" on something that doesn't exist.

So earlier you say these things can't be proven one way or the other. I take your words above to mean that you have decided to "believe" that a "certain something" does not exist.

Quote:
The comments soliciting evidence were more directed at MJ ... sorry. (Though I don't really expect him to provide any either.)

What does it matter what others think.

You have decided to believe against Jesus.

That is between you and Jesus.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #103 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


You say this:

Originally quoted by BR:
Quote:
Now, I may say certain deities that certain people believe in don't exist. The Christian god is hocus pocus bullshit. I say that because such a god as described by christians and the bible is largely self-contradictory.

Originlly quoted by segovius
Quote:
I agree 100% and have said so repeatedly.

So you and BR both think Jesus was a fraud and a lier.

I take Jesus at his word.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #104 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

So you and BR both think Jesus was a fraud and a lier.

I take Jesus at his word.

Fellows

Probably best not to lump me in with BR - I'm far closer to your view than his

BUT I can't actually lie about certain things: that there are contradictions in the Bible, that there are factual inaccuracies, that it has been altered and translated selectively...and on.

So take all those things together I think that the God most Christians believe in is a fiction and a late one.

Luckily - to me, if not BR - that does not mean that God does not exist or that the Bible and Jesus's teaching were ORIGINALLY correct.

So perhaps I'd prefer: the Jesus of the Gospels is not a fraud because he was never like that and never said a lot of those things. Imo. To that extent he is a fiction though I believe there is a 'real' Jesus and he is not too difficult to find. You won't find him in the Church though...perhaps books of the Bible that have been censored though.

The people who transformed him into this to wield power though....they are a different story.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #105 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Probably best not to lump me in with BR - I'm far closer to your view than his

BUT I can't actually lie about certain things: that there are contradictions in the Bible, that there are factual inaccuracies, that it has been altered and translated selectively...and on.

So take all those things together I think that the God most Christians believe in is a fiction and a late one.

Luckily - to me, if not BR - that does not mean that God does not exist or that the Bible and Jesus's teaching were ORIGINALLY correct.

So perhaps I'd prefer: the Jesus of the Gospels is not a fraud because he was never like that and never said a lot of those things. Imo. To that extent he is a fiction though I believe there is a 'real' Jesus and he is not too difficult to find. You won't find him in the Church though...perhaps books of the Bible that have been censored though.

The people who transformed him into this to wield power though....they are a different story.

Don't be surprised when I say this to you as I don't mean any ill feelings to you personally but I will address what you say here.

I don't find BR being deceptive with his posts RE: Jesus.

I find what you are posting to be pure deception and confusion. So I feel that while you say you are "closer" to my viewpoint you are not.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #106 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Don't be surprised when I say this to you as I don't mean any ill feelings to you personally but I will address what you say here.

I don't find BR being deceptive with his posts RE: Jesus.

I find what you are posting to be pure deception and confusion. So I feel that while you say you are "closer" to my viewpoint you are not.

Fellows

It's up to you Fellows.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus - but just not your Jesus. I base it on evidence and logic and academic research - you wouldn't want to know about that but there it is.

BR is an atheist who hates and despises your religion and likes to shout fuck a lot.

And of the two you think he is closer to your Christian viewpoint!! Funny!!

Well...maybe he is... you could well be right. I have often claimed neo-atheists and fundies are the same thing but I never put you in that bracket.

But if you put yourself in there who am I to argue?

You disappoint me Fellows.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #107 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's up to you Fellows.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus - but just not your Jesus. I base it on evidence and logic and academic research - you wouldn't want to know about that but there it is.

BR is an atheist who hates and despises your religion and likes to shout fuck a lot.

And of the two you think he is closer to your Christian viewpoint!! Funny!!

Well...maybe he is... you could well be right. I have often claimed neo-atheists and fundies are the same thing but I never put you in that bracket.

But if you put yourself in there who am I to argue?

You disappoint me Fellows.

I like you Seg I am just not in agreement with your views.

Let me ask you if you support the following....
Quran (25:52) Listen not to the unbelievers, but strive (Jihad) against them with the utmost strenuousness.

Quran (9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty.

Quran (4:101) For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies

Quran (4:74) Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Quran (9:111) Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran (2:207) And there is the type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah

Quran (61:10-12) O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement.

Many Islamic sects believe that until the world is subjugated under Islam Jihad must be enforced.

To understand Islam one only needs to look at life in countries where it is the dominant religion.

The Sixth Pillar of Islam is Jihad or holy fighting and this is an obligation for every Muslim on earth! No exceptions.

Al-Jihad (holy fighting) in Allahs Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). Allahs Word is made superior, (His Word being Lailaha illallah which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and His Religion (Islam) is propagated.

By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfil this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.

The above statements are exactly as published in the quran and that includes everything in parentheses.

Quran (61:9) He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) hate (it).

Quran (61:9) It is He Who has sent His Messenger forth with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it triumph over every religion, even though the idolaters may be averse.

To show that it is above all [other] religions (Haleem); [He] will make it dominate (Khalifa); to raise it above all faiths (Ahmed Ali); He may make it prevail over all religions (Maududi); To make it victorious (team of translators of Ibn Kathir); to make it dominate over all other religions (Mufti Muhammad Madani); to prevail over all other religions (Zafrulla Khan); that He make it prevail over all [false] religion (Asad, who adds false, which is not in the original); that He may make it conqueror (Pickthall); that He may make it overcome the religion, all of them (Shakir)

Mawlana Sayid Abul Ala Mawdudi an Islamic scholar:
Islam is not a normal religion like the other religions in the world, and Muslim nations are not like normal nations. Muslim nations are very special because they have a command from Allah to rule the entire world and to be over every nation in the world.

Aduallah al-Araby in his book The Islamization of America:
Thanks to your democratic laws, we will invade you, Thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you.

Omar Ahmed, Chairman of the Board of CAIR:
Islam isnt in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.

Remember There will arise a man will whose sole driving goal will be to achieve complete world domination through his political-military-religious empire.

Islam has this very same goal inherent in its most core doctrines. Today, as we watch the call to radical jihad being trumpeted ever louder by Muslim/Islamic leaders all over the world Islam is slowly moving and creeping ever so much closer toward achieving that very goal of establishing Sharia Law everywhere it is Quran-ic doctrinal

Pastor Mujahid El Masih converted from Islam says
There are two houses within Islamic theology. The house of Islam are those countries where Muslims are in the majority and Islamic law has been established, including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, and Libya. The house of war are those countries where Muslims are the minority and Islamic law has not been established. Every Muslim believes it is his/her duty to bring Islam to these countries by all means, including countries like the US and Britain.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #108 of 159
Thread Starter 
Seg, BR KingofSomewhereHot, etc.

I don't belittle you for your views when I may or may not agree with your views. I state what I believe and I think it is cool when others state what they believe. I am not going to belittle anyone for stating what they believe.

We don't all have to agree to anything. But I think it is productive to discuss what we do and do not believe.

We don't have to.... but as humans I think history shows that we are inquiring minds.

Peace,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #109 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

So earlier you say these things can't be proven one way or the other. I take your words above to mean that you have decided to "believe" that a "certain something" does not exist.

OK.

I have never been presented with any evidence whatsoever to support that God exists... I have LOOKED for such evidence... Never has any been found.
Therefore, the LOGICAL conclusion is to assume God doesn't exist ... but I am certainly open to changing my position when such evidence is presented.

Others see the same lack of evidence, but choose to believe in a God of some sort anyway... against all reason. Whenever THEY are presented with the fallacies of various "supporting documents", well... they cover their ears and eyes and yell "nah nah nah nah nah, i can't hear your, nah nah nah nah" (metaphorically speaking... usually. )

I've never told anyone they don't have the right to believe in a God or Gods. I DO sometimes try to figure out WHY they believe in such things. "I just do." is the only answer they can come up with.
I "believe" there isn't a god, because thats where all the available evidence points... but remain open to the possibility.

Now... we can put aside ALL "religions" and leave ourselves with some seemingly infinitely powerful being/entity that has most or all of the properties we ascribe to a god... except that without man-made religions, it would seem to not give a whit about the puny humans or what they do or what becomes of them... in which case, the net effect of such a god is the same as "no god", so why not just save the effort for something useful and skip worrying about God.

So many things that have been attributed to "God" ... time and research have eventually shown to be explainable by naturally occurring phenomenon. It stands to REASON, based on past experience, that as our understanding increases, the rest of "God" will turn out to be naturally occurring as well.
... Again, the only god we'll be left with is the one that really doesn't matter because it just doesn't care about us anyway! (Assuming it even knows we exist.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #110 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I don't belittle you for your views when I may or may not agree with your views. I state what I believe and I think it is cool when others state what they believe. I am not going to belittle anyone for stating what they believe.

Fellows

That's where we're different... I have no problem belittling someone's beliefs when they have no basis in reality. You'll notice that I don't belittle the PERSON... merely what they believe without ANY supporting evidence. (Though you probably feel that the beliefs ARE the person, so you'll be personally offended, as your beliefs are not open to change.)

What is wrong with calling someone out for being unreasonable?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #111 of 159
KingOfSomewhereHot, I'm curious if there is there any specific evidence for God that you would accept?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #112 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

KingOfSomewhereHot, I'm curious if there is there any specific evidence for God that you would accept?

What do you have ?

...
...
...

Sure ... I don't KNOW what it is ... I haven't seen it yet.
(There was a time when humans didn't even have a CLUE that the earth was round ... or not the center of everything ... then one day (well, it took more than ONE day) technology made the evidence obtainable and everyone thought .. "oh how quaint... we used to think the earth was flat." They didn't KNOW what the evidence was ... they couldn't imagine traveling far enough to figure it out... they certainly couldn't imagine flying into low earth orbit (they didn't have a clue what that even was) and snapping a polaroid of a round ball of rock.)

Perhaps if he stopped by for tea one afternoon.

Perhaps if he'd talk to me ... He seems to do that for others.

If the God you prefer is supposed to be "loving" and "caring" with regards to us humans, then how 'bout he put an end to AIDS, cancer, Downs syndrome, conjoined births, etc, etc, etc... (Again, it just leads me to believe that IF there exists a god, it just doesn't care at all about "us" one way or the other.

If the god you prefer "wants" humans to worship him, then how 'bout he quit hiding?

...
...

You tell me what the evidence is that supports it's existence.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #113 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Perhaps if he stopped by for tea one afternoon.

Perhaps if he'd talk to me ... He seems to do that for others.

So, for you, it would need to be a physical and/or aural manifestation. How would you know it was God that stopped in for tea or spoke to you? What would make it clear to you that this was God?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #114 of 159
MJ, I applaud you sticking to your guns. We Christians need to make sure that we never answer too many questions and instead continue to shift the focus away from us and back onto the initial inquisitor. We've learned a thing or two about how inquisitions work in our beautifully peaceful history. You're playing KingOfSomewhereHot like a fiddle. Well done. Bravo.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #115 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What would make it clear to you that this was God?

I'm gonna go WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY out on a limb here and say that ... if it were God (we really need a smiley that conveys a deep authoritarian voice backed by a trumpet fanfare and the "ahhh!" from a host of angels!)... he'd be able to make sure I knew it was him without any doubt whatsoever. Even so... that'd be ALMOST as cool as if Steve Jobs stopped by for Tea!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #116 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

OK.

I have never been presented with any evidence whatsoever to support that God exists... I have LOOKED for such evidence... Never has any been found.
Therefore, the LOGICAL conclusion is to assume God doesn't exist ... but I am certainly open to changing my position when such evidence is presented.

Others see the same lack of evidence, but choose to believe in a God of some sort anyway... against all reason. Whenever THEY are presented with the fallacies of various "supporting documents", well... they cover their ears and eyes and yell "nah nah nah nah nah, i can't hear your, nah nah nah nah" (metaphorically speaking... usually. )

I've never told anyone they don't have the right to believe in a God or Gods. I DO sometimes try to figure out WHY they believe in such things. "I just do." is the only answer they can come up with.
I "believe" there isn't a god, because thats where all the available evidence points... but remain open to the possibility.

Now... we can put aside ALL "religions" and leave ourselves with some seemingly infinitely powerful being/entity that has most or all of the properties we ascribe to a god... except that without man-made religions, it would seem to not give a whit about the puny humans or what they do or what becomes of them... in which case, the net effect of such a god is the same as "no god", so why not just save the effort for something useful and skip worrying about God.

So many things that have been attributed to "God" ... time and research have eventually shown to be explainable by naturally occurring phenomenon. It stands to REASON, based on past experience, that as our understanding increases, the rest of "God" will turn out to be naturally occurring as well.
... Again, the only god we'll be left with is the one that really doesn't matter because it just doesn't care about us anyway! (Assuming it even knows we exist.)

While I see it differently than you I applaud this post of yours. You do a fine job of laying it out as to the reasons behind your belief (open to change as you said) that for now you don't believe the available evidence points to God.

So thanks for the reply.

I would argue that God is the architect of all that is. Everything from DNA to the Universe to our moral code. I find not one single other religious text which articulates these matters even closely.

So at least we agree to disagree.

I don't disrespect you due to your findings for yourself.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #117 of 159
Thread Starter 
In case anyone is interested in why I have pushed back towards segovius in some recent replies it is simply this.

I see segovius toss around the world "fundie" to everyone who he disagrees with. I thought it was time to turn the table a little and get segovius on the record as to what exactly he does believe.

Anyone can critique another's beliefs. But what are you for? is sometimes the thing that I am curious to as well.

I rather enjoy the posts of segovius for the most part but the whole "fundie" thing for everyone but himself is getting tiresome to say the least.

I have seen atheists explain why they are at the place they are in terms of their views and beliefs in terms of a God or no God etc.

Where are you coming from with your perspective Segovius.

So fundie is one issue I raise.

Another is:

So tell me about the Jesus you believe is a different Jesus than the one I believe in.

This is another reason I am curious for you to share your views here.

We go from you agreeing 100% with BR that the Christian God is hocus pocus cow manure. I think it was....

To

That you believe in God and Jesus just not the same Jesus I believe in...

Are you willing to clarify this? as to provide some basis for understanding your viewpoint?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #118 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


So perhaps I'd prefer: the Jesus of the Gospels is not a fraud because he was never like that and never said a lot of those things. Imo.

Never like what? and never said what?

Please back this up. If you can't back this up then my accusation towards you that you are adding confusion and deception stands.

At least with BR I know where the dude stands. With you I sometimes feel you get to invent new things at will.

I never really know where you stand.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #119 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


It only proves the Bible is not true. That's all it does. And we don't need atheists for that - the Church of England has been doing it for centuries. And more effectively.

You are a hoot seg.


Quote:
Most if not all of the Bible has been taken apart and shown to be in error and man-made.

[BLANK] that nails it. Fold up your tent boys..

Could you explain to me segovius how the Bible is "shown to be in error"?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #120 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I'm gonna go WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY out on a limb here and say that ... if it were God ... he'd be able to make sure I knew it was him without any doubt whatsoever.

Maybe.

But since God appears to desire a certain amount of faith, then maybe not.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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