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Alleviating poverty and helping the poor

post #1 of 107
Thread Starter 
The subject of the poor and poverty have come up numerous times in various threads. This thread is an open discussion for ideas, thoughts and suggestions about how poverty can be alleviated and the poor can be helped.

Some questions to get the ball rolling:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2 of 107
I have an idea. Since you started the thread, why don't you give your thoughts first. Go ahead, do something out of character for once.

You see the risk is, we give our thoughts and 'get the ball rolling', while you stand by, criticize anything that 'takes away freedom' and never ever actually offer any other opinion whatsoever.

I refuse to humor you when your behavior is such.
post #3 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You see the risk is, we give our thoughts and 'get the ball rolling', while you stand by, criticize anything that 'takes away freedom' and never ever actually offer any other opinion whatsoever.

I refuse to humor you when your behavior is such.

If you think that is "the risk," then, instead of posting how you're not going to post, don't post in this thread.

This thread is about issue of poverty and the poor and people's ideas for solving these problems, not your perceptions and opinions of my behavior in these forums. That's a different subject. If you wish to start a thread about that topic, go ahead.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #4 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The subject of the poor and poverty have come up numerous times in various threads. This thread is an open discussion for ideas, thoughts and suggestions about how poverty can be alleviated and the poor can be helped.

Some questions to get the ball rolling:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

Quote:
[*]What is poverty?

The inability to generate wealth.

Quote:
[*]What are the key issues and problems?

The key issues with regard to poverty are ignoring what causes the inability to generate wealth for temporarily relieving the lack of wealth with cash payments.

Quote:
[*]What are the best ways to help?

In most instances, the best way is to not help one who is impoverished directly and instead encourage wealth generating activities. Most "household" poverty could be eliminated by marriage and it is generated by measuring two single adults often living together but claiming differently for the ability to claim benefits as two "households." The other major contributing factors to lack of wealth generation are age, most of the poor are children or young adults who have not yet started their careers while going to school or acquiring a trade but you can't pay someone to not be young. So the best way to help would be for the government to stop encouraging and subsidizing cohabitation.

Quote:
[*]What are the worst ways to help?

Exactly what we are doing now in many instances which is cash payments for remaining single or for cohabitation. The government should never provide cash to help establish a single adult household because it cannot generate wealth on par with two party households and remains impoverished long term.

Quote:
[*]What things are currently working?

Not much is working which is why we have ever increasing poverty and now chronic long term employment all created by government social policy. Companies are sitting on massive reserves of cash that they are not hiring people with and likewise governments are going broke paying out massive benefits in an attempt to keep buying votes and subsidizing dependence.

Quote:
[*]What things are currently not working?

Pretty much everything we do right now is not working and the worst of them involve education. We fail to have a vocational education system. We act as if every person is going to college. We have a higher education bubble due to government aid. Much education funded to "help" these single households are in grievance degrees, aka social work and ethnic and gender studies. It is a massive negative feedback loop of ignorance, lack of productivity and dependence that becomes more expensive and horrifying by the day.

Quote:
[*]What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

The worst of these are food stamps in my opinion. They clearly subsidize substance abuse from my anecdotal experiences. The attempts to deal with the "stigma" all fail because what really happens is bad people steal the food from their children by selling the befits for $.50 or worse on the dollar in exchange for real cash that they can then spend on cigarettes, booze and drugs. When they are spent on food, the food is not healthful and it allows the small amount of actual cash to again, be spent on unhealthful vices. If the government is concerned about children eating simply provide the meals as they do through schools also provide the meals or food directly. Do not attempt in any form or fashion to give any form of purchasing power in place of actual food.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If you think that is "the risk," then, instead of posting how you're not going to post, don't post in this thread.

This thread is about issue of poverty and the poor and people's ideas for solving these problems, not your perceptions and opinions of my behavior in these forums. That's a different subject. If you wish to start a thread about that topic, go ahead.

And still, no opinion offered. Surprise, surprise, surprise.
post #6 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This thread is about issue of poverty and the poor and people's ideas for solving these problems...

Then why are you in this thread? Where are your effing ideas?
post #7 of 107
He needs help coming up with ways of consistently helping the poor that don't involve government intervention. He's hoping somebody will eventually make a breakthrough in that regard because clearly he has no fucking ideas himself here.

Oooh, how about this one? Give churches tax exempt status. That should fix the problem. They care about the poor and that money will clearly be put to good causes only.






Catholic Order Reaches $166 Million Settlement With Sexual Abuse Victims
The Catholic Diocese of Savanna, Ga agreed to settle a sex abuse claim involving a former priest for $4.2 million.
In the United States, Roman Catholic archdioceses have collectively paid some $2 billion in settlements to victims since the priest sex scandals first erupted in Boston nearly a decade ago.

I could keep going but I've barely scratched the surface.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #8 of 107
Thread Starter 
So far only one constructive response. Sad.

Tonton, are you going to actually contribute something useful or simple derail and spam?

BR, are you going to provide some constructive input to the discussion or simply extend your anti-religious campaign?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So far only one constructive response. Sad.

Tonton, are you going to actually contribute something useful or simple derail and spam?

BR, are you going to provide some constructive input to the discussion or simply extend your anti-religious campaign?

I'm waiting for your contribution before I tear Nick's post apart as being idiotic.
post #10 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm waiting for your contribution before I tear Nick's post apart as being idiotic.

So the answer is no. Got it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #11 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So far only one constructive response. Sad.

Tonton, are you going to actually contribute something useful or simple derail and spam?

BR, are you going to provide some constructive input to the discussion or simply extend your anti-religious campaign?

So, you are FOR child molestation, billions of dollars paid to the victims to keep clergy from prison, and palaces of worship while there are still homeless people who starve. Got it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #12 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, you are FOR child molestation, billions of dollars paid to the victims to keep clergy from prison, and palaces of worship while there are still homeless people who starve. Got it.

You got al that from his question? Your anger with religion knows no bounds.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #13 of 107
I was being facetious because it is difficult to be serious around MJ, who is clearly too good for us. It would lower himself too much to actually give us his opinion on the topic without bullshit games to play first.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #14 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I was being facetious because it is difficult to be serious around MJ, who is clearly too good for us. It would lower himself too much to actually give us his opinion on the topic without bullshit games to play first.

Well thanks again for expressing your opinions about me (instead of the thread topic). Your fixation on me aside, I am not playing any "games" as you put it. I started this thread with the intent to open a rational and civil discussion on an important subject. Based on your posts so far, you desire neither.

You have expressed great concern about the poor in the past. Do you have anything to say about these questions:

What is poverty?
What are the key issues and problems?
What are the best ways to help?
What are the worst ways to help?
What things are currently working?
What things are currently not working?
What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #15 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I was being facetious because it is difficult to be serious around MJ, who is clearly too good for us. It would lower himself too much to actually give us his opinion on the topic without bullshit games to play first.

Exactly. Which Is why those of us familiar with his MO (and opposed to his general ideology, which we find exceedingly naive, blind to reality, and simplistic, with no room for compromise) refuse to play.
post #16 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well thanks again for expressing your opinions about me (instead of the thread topic). Your fixation on me aside, I am not playing any "games" as you put it. I started this thread with the intent to open a rational and civil discussion on an important subject. Based on your posts so far, you desire neither.

You have expressed great concern about the poor in the past. Do you have anything to say about these questions:

What is poverty?
What are the key issues and problems?
What are the best ways to help?
What are the worst ways to help?
What things are currently working?
What things are currently not working?
What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

This thread is about people sharing their opinions on these important matters. So why are you here, again?
post #17 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This thread is about people sharing their opinions on these important matters. So why are you here, again?

Seeking opinions, ideas and thoughts on these important matters. Why are you here?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #18 of 107
So you are a blank canvas? You have no ideas yourself?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #19 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So you are a blank canvas? You have no ideas yourself?

I do have ideas of my own, but I'm also open to other ideas.

What about you?

So you are a blank canvas? You have no ideas yourself?

Are you also open to other ideas?

As I said there is much talk about these issues and people, such as you, have expressed concern for the poor and about poverty in general (which I share and I applaud), so I thought a thread to discuss the topic would useful.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #20 of 107
Oh, so you have ideas but refuse to share them unless we explicitly follow your arbitrary thread instructions. Your lust for power over others shockingly extends this far. So petty.

Share your ideas or shut up and go away. No more games.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #21 of 107
Are you thinking of poverty on a global scale or, say, within the USA ?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #22 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Are you thinking of poverty on a global scale or, say, within the USA ?

Either one. Take your pick. Just trying to get the discussion going.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #23 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh, so you have ideas but refuse to share them unless we explicitly follow your arbitrary thread instructions. Your lust for power over others shockingly extends this far. So petty.

Share your ideas or shut up and go away. No more games.



BR, you are welcome to start a thread that addresses the topics you like. You are also free to contribute constructively to this thread. I also cannot do anything to prevent you from despoiling this thread. I was hopeful that your concerns for the poor would prompt you to engage in this topic in a civil, respectful and constructive way. If you don't wish to do that, that's fine. I would simply respectfully request you to avoid the thread. Thanks.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #24 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Seeking opinions, ideas and thoughts on these important matters. Why are you here?

What a coincidence. I'm seeking your opinion on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970

Just trying to get the discussion going.

How Ironic. I know of one way you could get the discussion going quite easily.

This thread is hilarious.
post #25 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I know of one way you could get the discussion going quite easily.

I know one way also. But, so far, that approach has engaged only one person in a civilized and constructive way while drawing out the true nature of two others. \


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This thread is hilarious.

Sad really. Because you and BR have, thus far, chosen to urinate all over it instead of contributing constructive thoughts to the topic of the thread.



Oh well.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #26 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I know one way also. But, so far, that approach has engaged only one person in a civilized and constructive way while drawing out the true nature of two others. \




Sad really. Because you and BR have, thus far, chosen to urinate all over it instead of contributing constructive thoughts to the topic of the thread.



Oh well.

As far as opinions go, you show me yours, and I'll show you mine. That's as simple as it gets.

Deal?
post #27 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As far as opinions go, you show me yours, and I'll show you mine. That's as simple as it gets.

Deal?

No one is forcing you to post in this thread. You are perfectly free to ignore it and me if it (or I) don't live to your standards. If this is the case, please find some other thread to post in.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 107
And here's the visual clue:




What are things less stubborn than MJ?


Seems like MJ could just avoid all this nonsense by simply voicing his thoughts on the topic. Other than pure unadulterated childishness, I can't find a single fucking valid reason why he can't tell us his ideas for solving poverty.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #29 of 107
Ok I have been away for several days as I have had terrible problems with my web access provider.

Now that I am back online and I decide to look over things I see this thread....

WT for the love of God is this going on here in this thread?

We have for all to see BR and tonton acting like complete children with their garbage tossed into this thread.

I give huge kudos to Trumptman for being an adult and actually contributing to this thread.

BR and tonton what is your problem?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #30 of 107
Why won't MJ give us his opinion? Seems like he's the one continuing the pattern of being childishly stubborn.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #31 of 107
Fellowship, you can be forgiven, because for the most part you weren't here to witness first hand MJ's relentless failure to contribute any ideas or solutions in his posts over the last year or two. Go back and read how many times he responded to four paragraphs, with links and analysis, with a single sentence, "No, it's not," or something else just as idiotic. He almost never offers any opinion of his own, except to tediously repeat the free market mantra, again without any supporting evidence for his claims. BR and I, and possibly some others, are well aware of this, and it's time to call him out on it.

If the sorry state of this thread is our fault, then why doesn't he simply post his opinion and put us in our place? Because he won't. Just watch.

I'm dying to tear down Trumpt's post in two or three sentences, but I'm waiting for the starter of this thread to chime in with his opinion first. I feel that that's a completely fair expectation.
post #32 of 107
Thread Starter 
Trumptman, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive contribution.

It would have been nice to see the thoughts and ideas of others who have expressed great concern for the poor.

I guess the mods should just delete this thread at this point. How sad.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #33 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Fellowship, you can be forgiven, because for the most part you weren't here to witness first hand MJ's relentless failure to contribute any ideas or solutions in his posts over the last year or two. Go back and read how many times he responded to four paragraphs, with links and analysis, with a single sentence, "No, it's not," or something else just as idiotic. He almost never offers any opinion of his own, except to tediously repeat the free market mantra, again without any supporting evidence for his claims. BR and I, and possibly some others, are well aware of this, and it's time to call him out on it.

If the sorry state of this thread is our fault, then why doesn't he simply post his opinion and put us in our place? Because he won't. Just watch.

I'm dying to tear down Trumpt's post in two or three sentences, but I'm waiting for the starter of this thread to chime in with his opinion first. I feel that that's a completely fair expectation.

Well I appreciate your understanding that I have been away for a period of time. I not being aware of what you and BR seem to suggest about MJ may be completely a fault of mine which I will own. I don't harbor any dislike towards any of the posters here. I would be interested as to what MJ has to say about these accusations.

I have no reason to have a problem with MJ as during the time I have posted within this forum I have very little experience with MJ and to my knowledge have never found this poster to present a problem.

MJ if you feel like it how would you address the complaints of your critics?

Respectfully to all,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #34 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Trumptman, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive contribution.

It would have been nice to see the thoughts and ideas of others who have expressed great concern for the poor.

I guess the mods should just delete this thread at this point. How sad.

Or you could just post your opinion. You know, that option.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #35 of 107
I will share my thoughts about poverty:

I think poverty results from several main concepts.

Lack of planning. (no system in place for economic prosperity as well as upward mobility)

Lack of education. (unskilled labor is likely to pay very little)

Economic hardship. (family or individual has fallen on financial crisis due to inability to pay off debts related to medical or some other unforeseen occurrence which took place in their life.

Substance abuse and or mental health issues. (no added commentary or expansion needed here)

Aside from the above I would make several points as well.

I do not believe that it is critical for investment to be made in an area for people to live a full life. In other words.. The idea that well, there are no banks, no restaurants, no factories, no "jobs" is not really a scapegoat to expect or tolerate poverty in my opinion as I believe that people as a family unit or community level unit can organize to work the land say as the Amish do, do not constitute poverty. This way of life may not be the norm by "modern" standards but none the less this way of life is by no means a variant of "poverty" as I see it.

You have to take what you have and utilize it and work it. As far as how much ingenuity and advancement you wish to partake with that is your choice to make. You can go anywhere from a basic lifestyle like the Amish all the way up to all the modern availabilities that you can imagine.

My argument would be that one can live a "rich" life when they decide what is of value to them.

I would also argue that some things steal from a life of value.

These things include:

Slavery

Substance abuse

Neglect / indifference / lack of concern.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #36 of 107
Thread Starter 
Fellowship, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #37 of 107
Thread Starter 
Fellowship, thanks for sharing your thoughts on poverty and the poor.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #38 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Fellowship, thanks for sharing your thoughts on poverty and the poor.

So will you now respond to him in kind with your solutions?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #39 of 107
MJ1970, this is an excellent thread. Thank you, very sincerely, for starting it.

Everyone, lay off MJ1970.

I've been thinking a lot about these very questions, and I have an enormous amount to offer this discussion.

Before I do, I have a few questions for MJ1970.
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

Just like to know your thoughts on these questions, MJ1970, before I actually make my valuable contribution to the thread you started to discuss these questions.
post #40 of 107
"What caught my eye was Scotland's switch to free prescriptions for all its patients, on the very day when England's rate goes up 20p to £7.40 a pop. Wales and Northern Ireland have already gone free, so the contrast within the British NHS family is now a sharp one."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...scriptions-nhs

"The pharmaceutical industry has thousands of lobbyists in Washington, DC, that lobby Congress and protect their interests. The pharmaceutical industry spent $855 million, more than any other industry, on lobbying activities from 1998 to 2006, according to the non-partisan Center for Public Integrity."
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescri..._United_States


"The patients are encouraged to pray while awaiting treatment. The medical staff introduce God as part of what the organisation describes as holistic care.

"We find a lot of people who come to us with a medical need but wouldn't set foot in the door of a church," said the mobile clinic's nurse, Lynn Hersey. "They want to check and see if someone who is a Christian can be trusted with one little thing, if they're going to shove Jesus down their throat because they ate the bait and came in through the door."

But there's another kind of evangelising at work too, involving a web of interests more focussed on Mammon than the Almighty. Much of Good Samaritan's work is funded by hospitals trying to keep patients who cannot pay out of emergency rooms, where they must be treated for any immediate health crisis by law whether they can pay or not. Those same hospitals have an interest in promoting charity as an alternative to President Obama's plans for government to take the lead in getting healthcare to the poor and the middle classes likely to be bankrupted by catastrophic illness.

Good Samaritan makes no secret of where it stands on the issue; the government has no business involving itself in healthcare.

"Governments treat you like a number," said the organisation's director, Dr John Crouch. "I really believe that there has to be a way to cover the folks who can't get care at all, and I think one of the ways is what we're doing. Maybe there's a different way of funding us, besides just funding us through our donations. We're emphasising that the more all the time."

Hersey concedes that the present system can be a tragedy for the poor.

What happens to someone with a chronic disease and no insurance? A woman with cancer, say, who might get the surgery she needs thanks to Good Samaritan but not the medicines afterwards. Hersey hesitates.

"They go without," she said.

You mean they die?

"Yes.""
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-wrath-1-tulsa
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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