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post #41 of 107
This is a very interesting thread, on a topic I think about a lot. I have an enormous amount to contribute to this thread. An enormous amount.

Before I do, I have a couple of questions for the thread-starter.
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

MJ1970, what do you think? What is poverty, do you think? What are the key issues and problems? Actually, what do you think are the best ways to help? What are the worst, do you reckon? What things are currently working? Oh: what things are currently not working? What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

I have so much to contribute to this very valuable topic, but I'd LOVE to hear what you think!

post #42 of 107
Tories in UK fuck the poor and disabled-

"Rising numbers of vulnerable jobseekers are being tricked into losing benefits amid growing pressure to meet welfare targets, a Jobcentre Plus adviser has told the Guardian.

A whistleblower said staff at his jobcentre were given targets of three people a week to refer for sanctions, where benefits are removed for up to six months. He said it was part of a "culture change" since last summer that had led to competition between advisers, teams and regional offices.

"Suddenly you're not helping somebody into sustainable employment, which is what you're employed to do," he said. "You're looking for ways to trick your customers into 'not looking for work'. You come up with many ways. I've seen dyslexic customers given written job searches, and when they don't produce them what a surprise they're sanctioned. The only target that anyone seems to care about is stopping people's money.

"'Saving the public purse' is the catchphrase that is used in our office It is drummed home all the time you're saving the public purse. Feel good about stopping someone's money, you've just saved your own pocket. Its a joke."

The claims came as the big businesses handed contracts to get the long term jobless into worktoday said the government should privatise jobcentres so that their firms could work with people who have been jobless for less than a year.

Statistics from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) show the total number of cases where people have lost their benefits has soared since the beginning of 2010 to 75,000 in October, the latest month available. The figures also reveal the number of claimants with registered disabilities being cut off has more than doubled to almost 20,000 over the same period.

This follows a change in the rules in April last year where sanctions were extended to claimants who were late for jobcentre interviews and other less serious offences.

When a claimant is sanctioned their jobseeker's allowance is stopped. They then have to apply for hardship payments, which are usually about half the allowance, or just over £30 a week. John, in Wigan, has been sanctioned for six months and says he has to rely on food parcels and must sleep on his friend's couch. "It's left me in a state of depression. I've lost weight, I'm tired I feel like I've been attacked for no reason."

The whistleblower blamed the targets. "We were told suddenly that [finding someone to sanction] once a week wasn't good enough, we were far behind other offices, and we went to a meeting where they compared us with other offices, and said we now have to do three a week to catch up. Most staff go into work and they're thinking about it from moment one who am I going to stop this week?"

The DWP denies there are specific targets, but the Guardian has seen email evidence of referral targets in one office, and the issue of targets has been raised by employees on online forums."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...efit-sanctions
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #43 of 107
Sad thing is, there are sick fucks who actually think the mindset of the unemployed is perfectly represented by Irvine Welsh's Mark Renton.
post #44 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The subject of the poor and poverty have come up numerous times in various threads. This thread is an open discussion for ideas, thoughts and suggestions about how poverty can be alleviated and the poor can be helped.

Some questions to get the ball rolling:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

Just re-read this (excellent) opening post. Surprised I misunderstood what you were asking, MJ1970.

Poverty is an important topic and I'm glad to see someone else other than me has been thinking about this and has opinions they would like to share. Thank you for starting thus thread. I'm very, very eager to discuss this with you! Very eager.

Before we begin, I'd respectfully like to know kinda where you're coming from on the topic. Of poverty. In this thread you started, and good for you for doing so!

My questions:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

I'm very much looking forward to your answers. Like I say, this is an important subject, and if you have as much to contribute on this thread as I have, we might actually be able to have a genuinely illuminating and respectful exchange of ideas! You clearly have plenty.
post #45 of 107
perhaps it would be good to bear in mind, that there are creationists and right wing xians who 'make a living' from writing pamphlets, small books, and literature about such issues that crop up in fundie life - they are not so much asking a question, they are gathering responses to common issues to formulate a general concensus of opinion so that they can pre-empt the types of questions and answers that need to be addressed for their literature.

Worse perhaps, they are mining for counterpoints to their agenda, such that they can best herd their flock, and keep them inline for the moments they stray, possibly after meeting a rational person....maybe recognise that they have no interest in discussion, debate and interaction, and use whatever means available as a research, formulation tool.

Realise that these people might even post questions in AO.



Feeling lucky punk?
post #46 of 107
Just to get back to the post that kicked this thread off a minute:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The subject of the poor and poverty have come up numerous times in various threads. This thread is an open discussion for ideas, thoughts and suggestions about how poverty can be alleviated and the poor can be helped.

Some questions to get the ball rolling:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

Well, excellent questions!

Like you, and many others on this forum I expect, I've been thinking a great deal about these questions. I certainly don't want this thread to fall off the very top of this page until we've all discussed this topic! Certainly not until we've heard what you have to say on the subject, MJ1970!

And I'm sure there are many lurkers and others here who are very keen to hear what someone like you, on the right of the American political conversation, think on the subject. We need to hear your ideas, which you must believe are persuasive or you wouldn't have started a thread.

So, for my sake, and for the sake of all those lurkers (wondering perhaps if you have any ideas or any thoughts on the subject at all), and everyone else, I wonder, to get things rolling, would you mind answering a couple of questions on the subject? I have an enormous amount to contribute and I'm looking forward to beginning the conversation.
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

Looking forward to hearing your replies!
post #47 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I have an idea. Since you started the thread, why don't you give your thoughts first. Go ahead, do something out of character for once.

You see the risk is, we give our thoughts and 'get the ball rolling', while you stand by, criticize anything that 'takes away freedom' and never ever actually offer any other opinion whatsoever.

I refuse to humor you when your behavior is such.

Why are you so curt to people?
post #48 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

perhaps it would be good to bear in mind, that there are creationists and right wing xians who 'make a living' from writing pamphlets, small books, and literature about such issues that crop up in fundie life - they are not so much asking a question, they are gathering responses to common issues to formulate a general concensus of opinion so that they can pre-empt the types of questions and answers that need to be addressed for their literature.

Worse perhaps, they are mining for counterpoints to their agenda, such that they can best herd their flock, and keep them inline for the moments they stray, possibly after meeting a rational person....maybe recognise that they have no interest in discussion, debate and interaction, and use whatever means available as a research, formulation tool.

Realise that these people might even post questions in AO.



Feeling lucky punk?

As posted in the 'news' thread, as if we didn't know this already...

http://www.desmogblog.com/right-wing...recruit-trolls
post #49 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Why are you so curt to people?

Remember when I sarcastically pretended to be a fundie Christian in response to someone who was sarcastically pretending to be a fundie Christian, on April Fools' Day no less? Remember how you responded, without knowing or checking my posting history, which would have made my true position on the issue quite clear?

Remember that? That was curt.

MJ and I? We're old friends. We know exactly what to expect from each other.
post #50 of 107
MJ1970 thanks for starting this thread! Very pertinent questions you ask: questions I have asked myself nearly every day:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

I, and others, many of whom lurk here often, are eager to be persuaded that right wing Americans and libertarians such as you have answers to these important questions and are very keen to discuss them. As you must surely be, having started a thread with these very questions!

So. Before we begin, I have some questions for you. The thread starter. Just to kick us off.

What is poverty?
What are the key issues and problems?
What are the best ways to help?
What are the worst ways to help?
What things are currently working?
What things are currently not working?
What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

These are important questions. So important that this thread deserves to be on the top of this page for as long as it takes for you to provide some answers, so that we can all see the depth of the contribution that you can make.

Those questions again:

What is poverty?
What are the key issues and problems?
What are the best ways to help?
What are the worst ways to help?
What things are currently working?
What things are currently not working?
What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?
post #51 of 107
I'll bite.

Poverty is living life without God. With Jesus in your heart, no matter how much money you do or don't have, you are rich beyond your wildest dreams.

The key issues and problems involve blaspheming nonbelievers poisoning the minds of our children through the public school system. The government should not be in the business of indoctrinating kids with the lies of evolution while they are too young to know any better. We should be giving them a solid biblical foundation before they are sent out into the world.

The best way to help is to help them find God. Show them the way. Invite them to your church.

The worst way to help is to have the government steal my money and give it to the lazy poor. Giving them the tangible goods and services they think they need just makes them reliant on the government with no motivation to actually go out and get one of the many jobs available. They TURN DOWN work because they lack the Christian work ethic and can skate by on the government dole.

What's currently working? Faith based programs.

What's not working? Anything the government does.

What do you people often think helps but actually hurts? The government providing tangible goods and services to the poor. Stealing money from the rich to give to the poor may work in fairy tale adventures like Robin Hood, but not in Christ's America. This theft from those who actually earn their money is unconstitutional. We need to lower the corporate tax rates, remove the minimum wage, end immigration, relax child labor laws, and eliminate environment restrictions so that jobs can come back to this country. If you work hard in this life and obey Christ, and you'll enjoy an eternity in heaven.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #52 of 107
Someone call a priest! BR has been possessed by the ghost of Frank777!
post #53 of 107
Ha ha!

All joking aside, this is an excellent topic for a thread, that began with some excellent questions from the thread starter, and it deserves to stay at the very top of this page, even all year, until MJ1970 can show us his libertarian answers to these questions. Many of us, regulars and lurkers alike, are looking forward to being convinced.

Opening this thread, MJ1970 asked these excellent questions:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

I'm really looking forward to contributing to the thread, like I say, with my brilliant insights, which I modestly suggest are close to genius. But before I do I have a couple of questions for the thread starter, so we can tell... Well, if he has a single thought or opinion of his own on the subject. I think in his thread, on the subject, is a very good place to ask them!
post #54 of 107
Ah, sorry. I didn't actually say what my questions were. lol. Here they are:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

MJ1970 I can't wait for you to state your opinion on these questions. Like I say, in the thread you started on the subject of poverty with these questions is definitely a good place to do it. Many of us, posters and lurkers alike, are looking forward to acknowledging the depth of your insight and the fecundity of libertarian thought.
post #55 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Ha ha!

All joking aside, this is an excellent topic for a thread, that began with some excellent questions from the thread starter, and it deserves to stay at the very top of this page, even all year, until MJ1970 can show us his libertarian answers to these questions. Many of us, regulars and lurkers alike, are looking forward to being convinced.

Opening this thread, MJ1970 asked these excellent questions:
  • What is poverty?
  • What are the key issues and problems?
  • What are the best ways to help?
  • What are the worst ways to help?
  • What things are currently working?
  • What things are currently not working?
  • What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

I'm really looking forward to contributing to the thread, like I say, with my brilliant insights, which I modestly suggest are close to genius. But before I do I have a couple of questions for the thread starter, so we can tell... Well, if he has a single thought or opinion of his own on the subject. I think in his thread, on the subject, is a very good place to ask them!

I always thought there were no Libertarian answers to these questions, except maybe a feeble attempt at trickle down economic theory (which has been disproved again and again in the real world). I guess we'll never know, since it seems like our local libertarians are mum on the topic. Perhaps one of them would like to add their two cents, maybe address the questions asked?
post #56 of 107
I still find it absolutely hilarious that Nick defines poverty as, "The inability to generate wealth," yet his solution to the problem is to not help. Does he know what "inability" means?
post #57 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'll bite.

Poverty is living life without God. With Jesus in your heart, no matter how much money you do or don't have, you are rich beyond your wildest dreams.

The key issues and problems involve blaspheming nonbelievers poisoning the minds of our children through the public school system. The government should not be in the business of indoctrinating kids with the lies of evolution while they are too young to know any better. We should be giving them a solid biblical foundation before they are sent out into the world.

The best way to help is to help them find God. Show them the way. Invite them to your church.

The worst way to help is to have the government steal my money and give it to the lazy poor. Giving them the tangible goods and services they think they need just makes them reliant on the government with no motivation to actually go out and get one of the many jobs available. They TURN DOWN work because they lack the Christian work ethic and can skate by on the government dole.

What's currently working? Faith based programs.

What's not working? Anything the government does.

What do you people often think helps but actually hurts? The government providing tangible goods and services to the poor. Stealing money from the rich to give to the poor may work in fairy tale adventures like Robin Hood, but not in Christ's America. This theft from those who actually earn their money is unconstitutional. We need to lower the corporate tax rates, remove the minimum wage, end immigration, relax child labor laws, and eliminate environment restrictions so that jobs can come back to this country. If you work hard in this life and obey Christ, and you'll enjoy an eternity in heaven.

You are so brain washed it is sad really.this malarkey about Christ is so exaggerated it is not funny.The rest of your solutions may be considered right.
post #58 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I still find it absolutely hilarious that Nick defines poverty as, "The inability to generate wealth," yet his solution to the problem is to not help. Does he know what "inability" means?

I could have sworn that under the question best ways to help there was an answer. It's sad tonton that after all this time not even answering any of the questions, the best you can do is weak humor showing you haven't read.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #59 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You are so brain washed it is sad really.this malarkey about Christ is so exaggerated it is not funny.The rest of your solutions may be considered right.

Au contraire, perhaps it's so (deliberately) exaggerated, it is funny. Your sarcasm meter is still on the fritz, Marv. By the way, have you checked out Kucinich, like I suggested?
post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You are so brain washed it is sad really.this malarkey about Christ is so exaggerated it is not funny.The rest of your solutions may be considered right.

Might I suggest a trip through the recent past archives of this forum paying special attention to names and the positions they hold. You might avoid future misunderstandings of when a person posting is being serious or not.

Queue the BR mischaracterization re christians and their seriousness. When every post is not serious it makes it difficult to take the poster himself seriously at all. BR, may you find peace with the positions you try so hard to cut down.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #61 of 107
Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

Quote:
Congress is tying itself in knots figuring out how to cut spending and bring down a $14 trillion national debt. Lawmakers might well take a much closer look at the nearly a trillion dollars spent each year on welfare even though many recipients aren’t what the typical American would recognize as poor and in need of government assistance.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #62 of 107
Just an observation in reading through this thread - I think Mumbo, BR, and tonton wanted MJ to post his thoughts first so they could attack him, spew their usual hateful rhetoric, and attempted to derail the thread.

Interestingly enough, when he refused to play their game they...attacked him, spewed their usual hateful rhetoric, and attempted to derail the thread. Fascinating.

And now, to the topic at hand, which I think is extremely important.


What is poverty?

It depends on who you ask, but I define poverty as the inability to provide the basic necessities of life for your family.

The basic necessities of life include food, clothing, and shelter. They do not include DVD players, cable TVs, or computers.


What are the key issues and problems?

Obviously, one of the key challenges in the United States is accurately defining what poverty is. Government has a vested interest in exaggerating the numbers of people in "poverty" so that it can perpetuate and grow itself through more taxation and establishing more programs to "fight" poverty.

I lived in Brazil for 2 years. From first-hand experience, I can tell you that the vast majority of people considered to be living in "poverty" here would be considered upper-middle class or even wealthy by most Brazilians.

When you're living in a house made of scrap wood and metal with a dirt floor, no indoor plumbing, no insulation, and no idea where you're going to get food to feed your family tomorrow, THAT's poverty.


What are the best ways to help?

I tend to agree with Benjamin Franklin on this one.

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." -- Benjamin Franklin, On the Price of Corn and Management of the Poor, November 1776

In other words, welfare assistance should be temporary and provide real incentive and encouragement for the individual to become self sufficient.


What are the worst ways to help?

Just giving the individual support with no clearly defined expectations or incentives for them to become self sufficient creates dependency. When the support runs out, you're back where you started.


What things are currently working?

Murray N. Rothbard wrote about welfare and the welfare state at length in his book For a New Liberty

Among other groups, he specifically praises the efforts of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as Mormons) in providing welfare assistance to the poor and needy.

Quote:
A highly successful private welfare program in the present-day is the one conducted by the ... Mormon Church. This remarkable people, hounded by poverty and persecution, emigrated to Utah and nearby states in the nineteenth century, and by thrift and hard work raised themselves to a general level of prosperity and affluence. Very few Mormons are on welfare; Mormons are taught to be independent, self-reliant, and to shun the public dole. Mormons are devout believers and have therefore successfully internalized these admirable values. Furthermore, the Mormon Church operates an extensive private welfare plan for its members based, again, on the principle of helping their members toward independence as rapidly as possible.

Note, for example, the following principles from the "Welfare Plan" of the Mormon Church. "Ever since its organization in 1830, the Church has encouraged its members to establish and maintain their economic independence; it has encouraged thrift and fostered the establishment of employment-creating industries; it has stood ready at all times to help needy faithful members." In 1936, the Mormon Church developed a "Church Welfare Plan, . . . a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished, and independence, industry, thrift and self-respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership." Mormon social workers in the program are instructed to act accordingly: "Faithful to this principle, welfare workers will earnestly teach and urge Church members to be self-sustaining to the full extent of their powers. No true Latter-Day Saint will, while physically able, voluntarily shift from himself the burden of his own support. So long as he can, under the inspiration of the Almighty and with his own labors, he will supply himself with the necessities of life." The immediate objectives of the welfare program are to: "1. Place in gainful employment those who are able to work. 2. Provide employment within the Welfare Program, in so far as possible, for those who cannot be placed in gainful employment. 3. Acquire the means with which to supply the needy, for whom the Church assumes responsibility, with the necessities of life." Insofar as possible, this program is carried on in small, decentralized, grass-roots groups: "Families, neighbors, quorums and wards and other Church organizational units may find it wise and desirable to form small groups for extending mutual help one to the other. Such groups may plant and harvest crops, process foods, store food, clothing and fuel, and carry out other projects for their mutual benefit."

Specifically, the Mormon bishops and priesthood quorums are enjoined to aid their brethren to self-help: "In his temporal administrations the bishop looks at every able-bodied needy person as a purely temporary problem, caring for him until he can help himself. The priesthood quorum must look at its needy member as a continuing problem until not alone his temporal needs are met but his spiritual ones also. As a concrete example a bishop extends help while the artisan or craftsman is out of work and in want; a priesthood quorum assists in establishing him in work and tries to see that he becomes fully self-supporting and active in his priesthood duties." Concrete rehabilitation activities for needy members enjoined upon the priesthood quorums include: "1. Placing quorum members and members of their families in permanent jobs. In some instances through trade school training, apprenticeships, and in other ways, quorums have assisted their quorum members to qualify themselves for better jobs. 2. Assisting quorum members and their families to get established in businesses of their own . . . ."

The prime objective of the Mormon Church is to find jobs for their needy. To this end, "The finding of suitable jobs, under the Welfare Program, is a major responsibility of priesthood quorum members. They and members of the Relief Society should be constantly on the alert for employment opportunities. If every member of the ward welfare committee does well his or her work in this respect, most of the unemployed will be placed in gainful employment at the group or ward level." Other members are rehabilitated as self-employed, the church may aid with a small loan, and the member's priesthood quorum may guarantee repayment from its funds. Those Mormons who cannot be placed in jobs or rehabilitated as self-employed "are to be given, in so far as possible, work at productive labor on Church properties . . . ." The Church is insistent on work by the recipient as far as possible: "It is imperative that people being sustained through the bishops storehouse program work to the extent of their ability, thus earning what they receive . . . . Work of an individual on welfare projects should be considered as temporary rather than permanent employment. It should nevertheless continue so long as assistance is rendered to the individual through the bishops storehouse program. In this way the spiritual welfare of people will be served as their temporal needs are supplied. Feelings of diffidence will be removed . . . ." Failing other work, the bishop may assign welfare recipients to aid individual members who are in need of help, the aided members reimbursing the Church at prevailing wage rates. In general, in return for their assistance, the welfare recipients are expected to make whatever contributions they can to the Church welfare program, either in funds, produce, or by their labor.

Complementary to this comprehensive system of private aid on the principle of fostering independence, the Mormon Church sternly discourages its members from going on public welfare. "It is requested that local Church officers stress the importance of each individual, each family and each Church community becoming self-sustaining and independent of public relief." And: "To seek and accept direct public relief all too often invites the curse of idleness and fosters the other evils of dole. It destroys one's independence, industry, thrift and self-respect."15

There is no finer model than the Mormon Church for a private, voluntary, rational, individualistic welfare program. Let government welfare be abolished, and one would expect that numerous such programs for rational mutual aid would spring up throughout the country.

The inspiring example of the Mormon Church is a demonstration that the major determinant of who or how many people go on public welfare is their cultural and moral values rather than their level of income.

This is just one of many examples of how private organizations can and do operate effective welfare programs.


What things are currently not working?

It is quite obvious that state-run welfare programs are ineffective, wasteful, and downright unconstitutional.

Their negative consequences far obscure any positive that may result.

The so-called "War on Poverty" is just like the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Terror". None of them actually solve or even reduce the problems they claim to be solving. They are all designed to perpetuate and grow the power and influence of the state while eliciting the support of the majority.


What things do we often think help but not only don't help but actually hurts?

There is a prevailing attitude and belief that only government can provide certain products or services. The reality is that government does not provide or produce anything - it forcibly takes from producing individuals (or groups of producing individuals) to redistribute (or keep).

The inevitable result is the continuation or exacerbation of most problems government claims to solve. Also, the government has no incentive to provide quality products or services - especially where it has a monopoly - because there is no competition or incentive to please customers or generate revenue.

But government continues to grow, and government employees and people in positions of power or responsibility within government always seem to be well taken care of, in spite of the fact that none of the problems they claim to be solving ever seem to go away.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #63 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And still, no opinion offered. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Then why are you in this thread? Where are your effing ideas?

Sorry dude, but you're being kind of dick. He's not obligated to express his opinion in the opening post. He did a nice job of getting things started. I really don't see what the problem is.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh, so you have ideas but refuse to share them unless we explicitly follow your arbitrary thread instructions. Your lust for power over others shockingly extends this far. So petty.

Share your ideas or shut up and go away. No more games.

Take your own advice, champ.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #65 of 107
On another note, I agree with trump's reply in its entirety. We focus on short-term cash relief (that becomes long-term) instead of ways to help poor people become richer people. We give cash assistance not based on ability, but on "need." Almost everything we are doing fails. And as for what poverty is, we should consider that poverty in the United States does not even compare to that of other nations.

Sorry...not much of an in-depth reply...but I've had enough for today.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #66 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'll take the infraction....you're being a huge dickwad here.

And of course SDW never does anything like the above ( like the time he just called me a dick and left out the wad ). It's the only way he knows how to respond to real questions I guess.

So tell us SDW why exactly is he being a " Huge dickwad "?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #67 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Just an observation in reading through this thread - I think Mumbo, BR, and tonton wanted MJ to post his thoughts first so they could attack him, spew their usual hateful rhetoric, and attempted to derail the thread.

Wrong. MJ started this thread to goad "lefties" into posting things that he could attack with non-content responses like, "You're wrong," or, "You don't understand basic economics." At the same time he doesn't post any opinions of his own to preclude anyone else from pointing out the holes in his theories.

It's what he always does, and it's what he's always done, which is what prompted my initial rant.
post #68 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

On another note, I agree with trump's reply in its entirety. We focus on short-term cash relief (that becomes long-term) instead of ways to help poor people become richer people. We give cash assistance not based on ability, but on "need." Almost everything we are doing fails. And as for what poverty is, we should consider that poverty in the United States does not even compare to that of other nations.

Sorry...not much of an in-depth reply...but I've had enough for today.

Yes, because none of those countries that have less poverty provide more direct aid to the poor than the US does...

Name one country that doesn't have universal health care that has less of a poverty problem than the US. Just one. Yet you oppose universal healthcare. Brilliant.
post #69 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wrong. MJ started this thread to goad "lefties" into posting things that he could attack with non-content responses like, "You're wrong," or, "You don't understand basic economics."

Actually, I didn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

At the same time he doesn't post any opinions of his own to preclude anyone else from pointing out the holes in his theories.

Actually, I do.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually, I didn't.

Actually, I do.

You started this thread. You asked questions. You have not made clear any position of your own. It is extremely irritating, and perhaps somewhat cowardly, and I agree with tonton that you started it with the express intention of telling evil liberals how stupid they were without exposing yourself to the danger of defending your own position.
post #71 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


Actually, I do.

In this thread, no, you don't. That is why everyone's annoyed with you.
post #72 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I have an idea. Since you started the thread, why don't you give your thoughts first. Go ahead, do something out of character for once.

You see the risk is, we give our thoughts and 'get the ball rolling', while you stand by, criticize anything that 'takes away freedom' and never ever actually offer any other opinion whatsoever.

I refuse to humor you when your behavior is such.

does the user use us as experiments in his questioning?What is his goal in doing this? Thanks
post #73 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You started this thread. You asked questions. You have not made clear any position of your own. It is extremely irritating, and perhaps somewhat cowardly, and I agree with tonton that you started it with the express intention of telling evil liberals how stupid they were without exposing yourself to the danger of defending your own position.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about my actions.

P.S. No one compelled you or anyone else to read or post in the thread, especially if you believe the intentions were nefarious.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #74 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

In this thread, no, you don't. That is why everyone's annoyed with you.

Everyone?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #75 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Everyone?

You don't have the balls to actually address the topic of the thread you started.

Some people don't care about that sort of stuff. So no, not everyone.
post #76 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about my actions.

P.S. No one compelled you or anyone else to read or post in the thread, especially if you believe the intentions were nefarious.

Forgive me for trying to get you to contribute to the thread you actually started.

post #77 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Forgive me for trying to get you to contribute to the thread you actually started.


As I said, no one is compelling you to post in this thread (or any other). You are free to avoid any thread I start or participate in. Or simply put me on ignore. No one is stopping you from doing these things. If you believe, as it seems you do, I'm looking and acting like a coward or fool, then I guess everyone will arrive at that conclusion on their own based on my words and actions. Just as anyone can draw their own conclusions about you based on your words and actions.

If you do post, you can do so politely and respectfully or go on doing what your doing.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #78 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As I said, no one is compelling you to post in this thread (or any other). You are free to avoid any thread I start or participate in. Or simply put me on ignore. No one is stopping you from doing these things. If you believe, as it seems you do, I'm looking and acting like a coward or fool, then I guess everyone will arrive at that conclusion on their own based on my words and actions. Just as anyone can draw their own conclusions about you based on your words and actions.

If you do post, you can do so politely and respectfully or go on doing what your doing.

Tell you what.

Why don't you simply prove me wrong and state your position, answering the questions you posed in the first post?

The moral high ground would be yours, I would apologise, and then we could even have a discussion.
post #79 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

...and then we could even have a discussion.

You're having a discussion anyway... it's just way off topic.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #80 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Tell you what.

Why don't you simply prove me wrong and state your position, answering the questions you posed in the first post?

The moral high ground would be yours, I would apologise, and then we could even have a discussion.

Or you could just answer his questions. There are many options, here.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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