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Alleviating poverty and helping the poor - Page 3

post #81 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Or you could just answer his questions. There are many options, here.

Yes, you're right.

But if I start a thread I have the courtesy, integrity and courage to state an opinion.
post #82 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Yes, you're right.

But if I start a thread I have the courtesy, integrity and courage to state an opinion.

Congratulations.

Unfortunately, not everyone is as courteous, bursting with integrity, or courageous (or humble) as you are. Perhaps you could further demonstrate how greatly superior you are to MJ1970 by answering his questions.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #83 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Congratulations.

Unfortunately, not everyone is as courteous, bursting with integrity, or courageous (or humble) as you are. Perhaps you could further demonstrate how greatly superior you are to MJ1970 by answering his questions.

Why aren't you more interested in getting the thread starter to actually state his position?

This must be that famous conservative sincerity I'm always reading about, in action.
post #84 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Why aren't you more interested in getting the thread starter to actually state his position?

This must be that famous conservative sincerity I'm always reading about, in action.

Why aren't you more interested in answering his questions and participating in the discussion this thread was intended to promote like I and others have?

Also, I can't speak for MJ1970, but I am not a conservative. I'm a libertarian. There's a difference.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #85 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Why aren't you more interested in answering his questions and participating in the discussion this thread was intended to promote like I and others have?

Also, I can't speak for MJ1970, but I am not a conservative. I'm a libertarian. There's a difference.

Yes. You are to conservatism what Stalinism is to Marxism. I know.
post #86 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Yes. You are to conservatism what Stalinism is to Marxism. I know.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #87 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


Youre quite right, I wasnt clear. My apologies.

Libertarians are to conservatives what Stalinists are to Marxists.

I dont really expect you to understand the equation, though, since you apparently think that Barack Obama is a Marxistso theres no way in hell youll know how a Stalinist is different to a Marxist. It might give some people with the barest understanding of politicial history a bit of a giggle, though.
post #88 of 107
You've apparently crafted a caricature of me and my beliefs in your mind that is very different from reality. When you address me in this forum, you address this caricature instead of me. I suggest you address what I've actually said. It makes things much easier.

You are also evidently suffering from the same problem I had when I was a staunch Bush supporter and neo-con. I viewed things in terms of left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republican. Everything had to be placed into one of those two categories. So I viewed libertarians as an offshoot of the modern liberal movement and not worth my time.

I eventually learned - through having an open mind and looking into things for myself - that I was completely wrong, and that the liberal/conservative dichotomy is a false dilemma.

Libertarianism is something different entirely.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #89 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You've apparently crafted a caricature of me and my beliefs in your mind that is very different from reality. When you address me in this forum, you address this caricature instead of me. I suggest you address what I've actually said. It makes things much easier.

You are also evidently suffering from the same problem I had when I was a staunch Bush supporter and neo-con. I viewed things in terms of left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republican. Everything had to be placed into one of those two categories. So I viewed libertarians as an offshoot of the modern liberal movement and not worth my time.

I eventually learned - through having an open mind and looking into things for myself - that I was completely wrong, and that the liberal/conservative dichotomy is a false dilemma.

Libertarianism is something different entirely.

That would be true if left wing people became libertarians.

But they don't. Libertarianism's for people too extreme for traditional right wing parties but with too much taste to want to pay for fascist architecture.

Don't expect you to get the reference there, either.
post #90 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

That would be true if left wing people became libertarians.

But they don't. Libertarianism's for people too extreme for traditional right wing parties but with too much taste to want to pay for fascist architecture.

Don't expect you to get the reference there, either.

Left-wing liberals don't become libertarians?

Really?

Are you sure about that?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #91 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Left-wing liberals don't become libertarians?

Really?

Are you sure about that?

Oh Jesus, did you just link me to Alex Jones' website?

Yes, you did. Please don't do that again.

I have a degree, and responsibilities, and a bare modicum of comprehension of basic history; I read books, and I like films and I don't take crystal meth, and I haven't had any acid for fifteen years and that shit is brain rot for paranoid dickholes, and if that's where you get your news... for heaven's sake, grow the fuck up.

If you found a liberal who became a libertarian on the internets, congrats. He's probably one of about nine on the planet, which is why he has a webpage.
post #92 of 107
Nice ad-hom.

You said left wing people don't become libertarians.

You were obviously wrong about that.

And you are obviously wrong about libertarianism.

What else could you be wrong about?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #93 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Nice ad-hom.

You said left wing people don't become libertarians.

You were obviously wrong about that.

And you are obviously wrong about libertarianism.

What else could you be wrong about?

You found two on the internet. They are on the internet because they are remarkable. Exceptional. Your story is the most common story by a hundred times, and you know it.

Incidentally, I honestly, truly believe you would be a happier, better adjusted man, more capable of loving your family and your fellow men, better capable of enjoying a dawn and a sunset, if you actually replaced your prisonplanet bookmark with pornography.
post #94 of 107
I found more. I posted two.

You don't really know what libertarianism is, so you fear it and lump it in with everything else you fear. It's an understandable reaction.

I had the same reaction before I actually took the time to understand what it is.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #95 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I found more. I posted two.

You don't really know what libertarianism is, so you fear it and lump it in with everything else you fear. It's an understandable reaction.

I had the same reaction before I actually took the time to understand what it is.

Perhaps, buuut...You don't have a degree, or any responsibilities, nor a bare modicum of comprehension of basic history; You don't read books, or like films and probably take crystal meth, and acid.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #96 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, because none of those countries that have less poverty provide more direct aid to the poor than the US does...

You're missing the point. Our "poverty" is not even close to what poverty is in many other nations. We have people that live in "poverty" according the the government. They often have newer, subsidized housing, cars, TVs, cable, plenty of food, etc. This can be seen even where I live, outside a former steel town. Section 8 housing and low income minority residents abound. And so do Lexus cars and DirectTV dishes. That's poverty in the U.S. on the whole.

Quote:

Name one country that doesn't have universal health care that has less of a poverty problem than the US. Just one. Yet you oppose universal healthcare. Brilliant.

That is a stupid, meaningless comparison.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #97 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And of course SDW never does anything like the above ( like the time he just called me a dick and left out the wad ). It's the only way he knows how to respond to real questions I guess.

So tell us SDW why exactly is he being a " Huge dickwad "?

I wasn't addressing you, so kindly stay the fuck out of it. Of course, you won't. You'll make a note of my post (that wasn't addressed to you) and try to use it in an argument 5 years from now....just like the sensitive woman that you are.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

You're having a discussion anyway... it's just way off topic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Yes, you're right.

But if I start a thread I have the courtesy, integrity and courage to state an opinion.

You, BR and tonton sure seem overly sensitive to this thread. Perhaps that's because you know the answers to the questions he posted, but cannot admit them? Yes, I think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You found two on the internet. They are on the internet because they are remarkable. Exceptional. Your story is the most common story by a hundred times, and you know it.

Incidentally, I honestly, truly believe you would be a happier, better adjusted man, more capable of loving your family and your fellow men, better capable of enjoying a dawn and a sunset, if you actually replaced your prisonplanet bookmark with pornography.

Man, I have seen some a-holes in my time, but....wow.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #98 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Man, I have seen some a-holes in my time, but....wow.

Right. You didnt get the point I was making.

Pornographys not very good for. Its sort of inhuman, and stops you seeing things as they really are.

Prisonplanet is exactly the same.
post #99 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Right. You didnt get the point I was making.

Pornographys not very good for. Its sort of inhuman, and stops you seeing things as they really are.

Prisonplanet is exactly the same.

Why is everything you post a personal attack on the one that you are responding to.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #100 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why is everything you post a personal attack on the one that you are responding to.

You're quite right. I'm far less tolerant than I used to be, and far less generous, and far ruder.

The thing is, NoahJ, I've lost count of the personal attacks and blanket statements about 'the left' Ive endured here. Simply voicing an opinion contrary to the board's conservative consensus is to be called 'unhinged' or 'psychotic'.

When you have to defend your base position itself from the charge of being 'psychotic', you eventually realise that the people you're arguing with don't really care what they write, and what you think. I dont get provoked anymore, but Im not civil with people who think that the left want to impose eugenics and that nationalised health is fascism. Generosity is rewarded with contempt.

Youre right, I should do better. I have conservative friends here in the real world, and we take the piss out of each other, and disagree, and carry on writing. Here its different. I know for a fact that people like trumptman, jazzguru or MJ1970 basically consider people who hold my beliefs to be the enemy. They write disgusting things.

You want me to just go 'ho hum, they're entitled to their opinion' when they can't allow the same of others.

So fuck that, and fuck 'em.

You dont ask this question of SDW2001, whos called me a dick, a dickwad, and whatever else, though. You never ask this of trumptman. If youre going to ask this question, be brave enough to ask the people you agree with.
post #101 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You're quite right. I'm far less tolerant than I used to be, and far less generous, and far ruder.
...
So fuck that, and fuck 'em.


Sooo...... you're becoming a republican ???
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #102 of 107
(That was a JOKE !!!!!)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #103 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I dont get provoked anymore, but Im not civil with people who think that the left want to impose eugenics and that nationalised health is fascism. Generosity is rewarded with contempt.

Generosity is not generosity if it is forced.

Charity is not charity if it is forced.

Using government to forcibly take property away from people is just as immoral and wrong as if you yourself were to go to your neighbor's house and take his property without his consent.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #104 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I know for a fact that people like trumptman, jazzguru or MJ1970 basically consider people who hold my beliefs to be ‘the enemy’.

You know this 'for a fact' huh? I cannot speak for what others think (as you are doing here), but I can speak for myself and I do not "consider people who hold my (your) beliefs to be ‘the enemy’."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

They write disgusting things.

Like what? What have I, specifically, written that disgusts you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You want me to just go 'ho hum, they're entitled to their opinion' when they can't allow the same of others.

When and where have you been disallowed your opinion? By whom?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #105 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Sooo...... you're becoming a republican ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You're quite right. I'm far less tolerant than I used to be, and far less generous, and far ruder.

The thing is, NoahJ, I've lost count of the personal attacks and blanket statements about 'the left' Ive endured here. Simply voicing an opinion contrary to the board's conservative consensus is to be called 'unhinged' or 'psychotic'.

When you have to defend your base position itself from the charge of being 'psychotic', you eventually realise that the people you're arguing with don't really care what they write, and what you think. I dont get provoked anymore, but Im not civil with people who think that the left want to impose eugenics and that nationalised health is fascism. Generosity is rewarded with contempt.

Youre right, I should do better. I have conservative friends here in the real world, and we take the piss out of each other, and disagree, and carry on writing. Here its different. I know for a fact that people like trumptman, jazzguru or MJ1970 basically consider people who hold my beliefs to be the enemy. They write disgusting things.

You want me to just go 'ho hum, they're entitled to their opinion' when they can't allow the same of others.

So fuck that, and fuck 'em.

You dont ask this question of SDW2001, whos called me a dick, a dickwad, and whatever else, though. You never ask this of trumptman. If youre going to ask this question, be brave enough to ask the people you agree with.

The fact is, I asked you. I have asked or spoken to others on their posts at times. But with yours it seemed every posts is a psonal attack. So I was wondering why. And you don't deny it. Instead you say, "they deserve it, and why don't you tell them they are being mean too".

You do seem like an intelligent guy. I don't disagree that you put up interesting and thought provoking posts. I don't agree with all of them, but they can bring a lot to the argument. If you want to play in the they did it first game that is your call. At least now I understand why.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #106 of 107
I think the main cause of poverty is not having a job. It's easy to get a job if you're someone like me, with a degree and over 10 years experience in my chosen field, but what if you're just starting out and not academically inclined?

What you need is a low-skill job you can step right in to off the street and start to build your resume. But such companies are typically low margin, and when the government imposes some new cost on business they are the first to go under. That is why, even if government is giving the money they get to the poor, they are not really helping them, because even if it's more money right now, there's no path out of there.
post #107 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post


So fuck that, and fuck 'em.

You don’t ask this question of SDW2001, who’s called me a dick, a dickwad, and whatever else, though. You never ask this of trumptman. If you’re going to ask this question, be brave enough to ask the people you agree with.

I called you those things because that's how you were acting. I rarely get to "that" point here, but when I see you acting out like that, I call it like I see it. You chose not to participate in the thread. Instead, you chose to mock and attack MJ. This was really not necessary. Even if you wanted to take issue with the fact that he didn't answer the questions he originally posed, you could of just done that. Instead, you posted this...a nearly exact replica of his OP:

Quote:
MJ1970, this is an excellent thread. Thank you, very sincerely, for starting it.

Everyone, lay off MJ1970.

I've been thinking a lot about these very questions, and I have an enormous amount to offer this discussion.

Before I do, I have a few questions for MJ1970.
What is poverty?
What are the key issues and problems?
What are the best ways to help?
What are the worst ways to help?
What things are currently working?
What things are currently not working?
What things do we often think helps because not only don't help but actually hurts?

Just like to know your thoughts on these questions, MJ1970, before I actually make my valuable contribution to the thread you started to discuss these questions.

Granted, you weren't the first. tonton really started it. But at least he wasn't as hatriolic. That is why I casually and half-jokingly said to him "sorry dude, you're being kind of a dick." You decided to take it to the next level, however.

Now, this may surprise you, but I too have friends of the opposite political persuasion with whom I engage in debate. We rip the shit out of each other's arguments, but it rarely gets personal. I have one quite liberal friend (of 20 years) with whom I engage in spirited discussion (in person). We don't take things personally and have good discussions.

I'm sad to say that often doesn't happen here, nor with you in particular. Given, say, 10 levels of anger/frustration, your posts seem to start at level 8 and move to level 10 within moments. Your response to the thread "The American Left Slides Into Psychosis" is a good example, but far from the only one. You immediately engage in ad hominem attacks and condescension, like you did in the Murdoch thread. Some examples:

Quote:
  • To my right wing friends on this board, asking for explanations as to what's going on in Britain, MAYBE YOU SHOULD GET YOUR NEWS FROM A NEWS SOURCE THAT GIVES YOU NEWS.
  • ou don't need to support Team Evil this time. Your team broke the law, they covered it up, they lied, and now they're fucked. You can support hacking the telephones of British war dead with journalists paid by Rupert Murdoch... or you can cleave to the last shred of decency you have and say "Actually, my team are pretty fucking disgusting this time."
  • Says the guy who quite clearly has trouble even writing the word 'liberal' without clenching his fists and counting to ten.
  • Of course, this is trivial.

    If you're a total fucking hypocritical dickhead.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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