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Don't ever complain about progressive taxes again - Page 3

post #81 of 88
Thread Starter 
This is the problem:

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #82 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

This is the problem:


This is insane spending over 46% on these lousy wars where we are losing all the time.These politicians say that only 3% funds are spent on the military which I see is a bunch of lies now. Shameful indeed.
post #83 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

In 2011, 46% of the US population pays no income tax.

Let's look at that the way it should be looked at, shall we? What percentage of all US income does that 46% account for? Now... what percentage of all individual earnings in the US are taxable? Still think it's not fair?

How much of that 46% pay sales tax? In Hong Kong those people would be paying zero. How many of those 46% pay Social Security tax? State tax? Again... Hong Kong: zero.

Now, what percentage of those 46% in the US has free health care with a maximum $12.50 deductible per visit (waivable for the truly needy)? In Hong Kong that number is 100%.

Are you telling me that's what the Tea Party wants in the US?
post #84 of 88
And what percentage of social welfare spending do that 46% receive?
So not only do they pay nothing, but they get all sorts of money thrown at them for their lack of effort.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #85 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

And what percentage of social welfare spending do that 46% receive?
So not only do they pay nothing, but they get all sorts of money thrown at them for their lack of effort.

You do realize that many of those 46% fall into that category by no means due to 'lack of effort", right? And I've already explained how it's far from true that they "pay nothing". But go ahead... keep spreading falsehoods.
post #86 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, we need to eliminate sales tax.

We need taxes. But whatever taxes that we have should be used to discourage job loss. Corporation makes a profit and cuts jobs? Tax the HELL out of them. Corporation holds billions in cash without using it to create jobs? Tax the HELL out of them.

A CEO buys a pleasure yacht or a five carat diamond instead of putting his dollar toward the economy more efficiently? Tax the HELL out of the purchase.

A corporation moves production or investment overseas? Tax the HELL out of them.

Put your billions in overseas bank accounts or off shore holding companies to avoid taxes? Tax the hell out of anything else you have.

Determine exactly how much health costs are associated with smoking, and make sure that the cigarette taxes collected can pay for it 100%.

Auto registration taxes should be fully based on distance traveled and axle weight, and those taxes should cover the costs of all public roadworks.

Gas tax should fully cover environmental protection costs, contribute to health costs, and research into clean fuel technologies.

Garbage collection should be charged based on non-recyclable garbage production, and the proceeds should fully pay for landfills and garbage collection services.

Shall I go on?

You really shouldn't go on because anyone who looks up taxation for Hong Kong would see you're talking out your butt. What you are describing is NOTHING like the Hong Kong model. NOTHING.

Hong Kong Tax:

No sales tax
No capital gains tax
No VAT
Maximum salary tax of 20%
Profit tax maximum of 16%


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY TRICKLE-DOWN DOESN'T WORK!!!!! You're learning... you're learning.

You live in the mecca of trickle-down. Come back to California and you'll be a Tea Party member in six months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Agreed. Which is why 'trickle down' doesn't work.

Repetition is not helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Read again. Hong Kong has NO regressive taxation. There is NO sales tax. There is effectively no tax for anyone earning less than US$20,000 a year, while above that amount, taxes are up to 20%. The rich cannot get away with paying less than 20%, no loopholes. The poor pay nothing. Is that what the Tea Party are pushing?

There are several conservative candidates who are pushing flat taxes with rebates back to household to remove taxation for life necessities and remove tax from a basic living standard. What you are talking about is nothing like the Hong Kong model. The millionaire in HK makes a million dollars a year. He pays his 20%. He doesn't pay Social Security and Medicare on a certain amount, then pay income tax. Then invest it into stocks. Then pay capital gains when he sells it and capital gains on the dividend he earns on it. If he goes and buys that big fancy yacht you said to tax the hell out of, there is no sales tax on it. In California he'd pay nearly 10% sales tax.

Quote:
There is also no import and export tax except for cigarettes, cars and alcohol, and a few other things. So your claim that hong kong has more excise taxes is wrong.

More is relative. Hong Kong already pays much lower taxes so those taxes could account for a larger percentage of a smaller piece of pie.

As an example look at this.


Taxation as a percentage of GDP. That means what percentage of the gross domestic product does the government scoop up and put to use as government spending. For Hong Kong it is 12.8%. For the United States it is more than double that, 28.2%.

This is why when government is ineffective, it should be folks like yourself who crucify the government rather than excusing them and blaming the rich. Why because they are clearly not providing half the services at more than double the money.

If you came back to Cali Tonton, you'd absolutely see this. The entire state is crumbling while we have massive taxes. They are all spent on a few state agencies that apparently get fantastic deals (and thus taint all state employees) and just massive waste, fraud and incredibly high welfare and monetary transfer payments. There isn't a Republican to be found and the state is and has been in the crapper for a decade plus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let's look at that the way it should be looked at, shall we? What percentage of all US income does that 46% account for? Now... what percentage of all individual earnings in the US are taxable? Still think it's not fair?

How much of that 46% pay sales tax? In Hong Kong those people would be paying zero. How many of those 46% pay Social Security tax? State tax? Again... Hong Kong: zero.

Now, what percentage of those 46% in the US has free health care with a maximum $12.50 deductible per visit (waivable for the truly needy)? In Hong Kong that number is 100%.

Are you telling me that's what the Tea Party wants in the US?

If advocates in the United States could ever get past a one size fits all approach, much of what you say could probably come to pass. However it is pretty clear that the left in the United States created what I again term a donut hole approach to problems that completely misses the solution. President Obama has set no example for energy conservation at all while chastizing people to sell their SUV's, sending out cash to buy their "clunkers" and then saying they better get used to gas prices while investing billions in Brazil and banning drilling at home.

Where the hell does that happen in Hong Kong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You do realize that many of those 46% fall into that category by no means due to 'lack of effort", right? And I've already explained how it's far from true that they "pay nothing". But go ahead... keep spreading falsehoods.

You are right and wrong. Since many of them are merely young or students, they've done nothing wrong to be in that bracket. However their time in that bracket will be temporary and thus the government is under no obligation to alter it. Ask yourself why the EITC doesn't kick into until a person is 25 years old. They don't want college students applying for a free $6000 a year, that's why. As for the people beyond that, they absolutely fall into it because many of those "households" would move up from poverty if their "household" merely married their partner and declared their income.

Finally Hong Kong is a homogenous society, especially compared to the United States. I'd love to see you and your daughter come back to the U.S. and experience the reverse racism here and still be so glad to hand over your cash.

Please come back Tonton. Please come to California and have your hard working daughter apply to UCLA. Then have her get turned away because they've got far too many Asian and white students there. Perhaps have her get in with some amazingly insane SAT score and a killer GPA and then watch as they raise tuition on her 40% a year declaring they will "rebate" it back to the "truly needy" and declare she can't possibly be that or even exist of she is that because they've already got too many of her there and thus the 40% that took won't be given back as financial aid even if the formulas declare she ought to have it. Watch her bemoan the fact that your "household" shows more income while her roommate's household doesn't because her parents merely live together and file separately while you were the idiot who got married.

Better still have her roommate have the exact same thing circumstances occur but her ethnic background is different and watch the outcome become different. Best of all, watch your daughter marry someone with the proper ethnic last name and watch all the numbers again completely change. Oh sorry that you had $10,000 of unmet financial need with your old last name but we are happy to meet all that need and even provide housing, plus priority registration with your new last name.

Please come back Tonton. See what your worldview has brought about.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #87 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You really shouldn't go on because anyone who looks up taxation for Hong Kong would see you're talking out your butt. What you are describing is NOTHING like the Hong Kong model. NOTHING.

Hong Kong Tax:

No sales tax
No capital gains tax
No VAT
Maximum salary tax of 20%
Profit tax maximum of 16%

Sounds pretty good to me. Only thing I'd do differently would be an across the board sales tax in place of the profit and income taxes. But what's listed above is head and shoulders above the US model.

Tonton has also tried to make the case for Hong Kong being "more socialist" than the US because it has some services like some variation of universal healthcare, etc. But when you look at the broader picture you see that government spending (which seems like a pretty decent overall measure of "socialist" or not) has Hong Kong running less than 19% of GDP vs. 39% of GDP in the US. On a reasonably objective measure of economic freedom (the opposite of socialism) Hong Kong has ranked #1 since the index has existed. The US is #9 and falling.

Trumptman, as you have aptly pointed out before, Hong Kong is a virtual tax haven compared to the US. It is also probably as close as anyone could find to a true free-market system and adherence to this system over many decades has created prosperity on a rock and a haven for those seeking escape from China. Granted it does benefit from its geography, but a look at a place like Mauritius gives us another example of what happens when you pursue greater economic freedom (smaller government, less taxation, less regulation, privatization of industry and liberalization of trade and economic activity)...Mauritius is the golden example that every other country in Africa should be following. Ditto Chile in South America. Estonia has had some success this way too.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #88 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Read again. Hong Kong has NO regressive taxation. There is NO sales tax. There is effectively no tax for anyone earning less than US$20,000 a year, while above that amount, taxes are up to 20%. The rich cannot get away with paying less than 20%, no loopholes. The poor pay nothing. Is that what the Tea Party are pushing?

There is also no import and export tax except for cigarettes, cars and alcohol, and a few other things. So your claim that hong kong has more excise taxes is wrong.

Many are pushing tax schemes quite similar to that, actually. Simpson-Bowles recommended lowering rates and closing loopholes.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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