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Nokia targets iPhone, iPad & more in second ITC complaint against Apple

post #1 of 63
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Nokia on Tuesday announced that it has filed a second complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission, accusing "virtually all" of Apple's products of infringing upon seven patents.

Nokia's suit takes aim at Apple's iPhone, iPod, iPad and Mac lineup, and accuses the Cupertino, Calif., device maker of violating patents with "key features" in those products. Claimed to be infringing are features related to multi-tasking, data synchronization, positioning, call quality, and the use of Bluetooth accessories.

"Our latest ITC filing means we now have 46 Nokia patents in suit against Apple, many filed more than 10 years before Apple made its first iPhone," said Paul Melin, vice president of intellectual property at Nokia. "Nokia is a leading innovator in technologies needed to build great mobile products and Apple must stop building its products using Nokia's proprietary innovation."

Nokia's statement notes that the company has invested 43 billion euros in research and development over the last two decades. It makes no mention of which specific seven patents are included in the filing.

The new complaint comes days after an initial ruling from the ITC found that Apple did not infringe on five Nokia patents. That was based on a previous complaint Nokia filed against Apple, which the ITC began formally investigating in January of 2010.

Nokia said Tuesday that it does not agree with the ITC's initial determination that there was no violation of Section 337 in the initial complaint. The Finnish handset maker said it is still waiting to see the full details of the ruling before deciding its next steps.

The legal battle between Nokia and Apple is already sprawling, and it continues to grow. Apple has its own lawsuit and a complaint with the ITC, and last December Nokia expanded the legal battle with Apple to Europe with patent infringement claims filed in the U.K., Germany and the Netherlands. Nokia said it expects some of those overseas filings to come to trial in the next few months.
post #2 of 63
Nice to see that things are different under the new management.
post #3 of 63
I did not realize frivolous lawsuits were big in Europe? I thought since Microsoft took over Nokia they would not be so desperate? Nokia must realize, as does anyone with half a brain, Windows Phone is a DOA, so now they are grasping at straws and throwing everything they can at Apple to see if something sticks.

I am still amazed at how Microsoft took over Nokia and is going to run it into the ground with a crappy phone OS.
post #4 of 63
I am guessing that soon, Nokia should be classified more as a law firm than as a electronics vendor.
post #5 of 63
Perhaps their strategy is to accuse Apple of violating ALL of their patents so that they can use the legal process to determine which of their patents Apple is in fact NOT violating so they can figure out which ideas were mistakes and they can then focus on the ones that Apple is actually using.
post #6 of 63
You would think spending 43B euros that they could build something more than the cr@p they build
post #7 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

I am guessing that soon, Nokia should be classified more as a law firm than as a electronics vendor.

That seems to be the only viable business model left.

J.
post #8 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

I am guessing that soon, Nokia should be classified more as a law firm than as a electronics vendor.

A law firm with Microsoft as its strategic client? I suspect some @ Microsoft will think across the lines of "anything that makes life difficult for Apple is good for us".
post #9 of 63
It sure looks like Nokia is struggling if they're having to become patent trolls just to keep their heads above water.
post #10 of 63
Pathetic little company.

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post #11 of 63
Deleted as duplicate.
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post #12 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas View Post

Pathetic little company.

I'd hardly call them a little company, also at this moment in time we do not actually know what the outcome of this action will be.

It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

Nokia has been in the communication business for over 20 years, their patent portfollio is very strong.

I'll concur that they have fallen behind Apple and others with regards to smart phones in recent years but contrary to what seem to be popular American opinion they do not make trash.

I used Nokia handsets for around 10 years before Apple released their iPhone and every single one of them gave me good solid service with no issues whatsoever both in terms of build quality and the software which they ran.

I'm happy with my iPhone and have no intention of switching back, just don't jump to conclusions with regards to this patent battle.
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post #13 of 63
This is just getting ridiculous. Smells like a personal vendetta.

C
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post #14 of 63
Its official, Nokia are clearly insane. I can understand somewhat if they were going after the iPhone again, since Nokia are a phone manufacturer, but going after the Mac as well!?

What exactly would Nokia be claiming infringement on in a desktop operating system?
Why did they choose to go after all these alleged patents only after loosing the first ruling?
When are they going to realise that they actually need innovation to to stay afloat and not law suits?
Who the hell is running Nokia right now?
How the hell is said person not sectioned under the mental health act?

"Nokia is a leading innovator in technologies..."
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post #15 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post

It sure looks like Nokia is struggling if they're having to become patent trolls just to keep their heads above water.

Not really, you have to defend a patent if you want to keep it. If you miss one patent, it will come back to haunt you. Apple is the same, they serve anyone who infringes on patents or trade marks. You cannot even have iMac or apple or any other Apple trademark as a license plate if you are a fanboy. And, whats with the App Store? We all know the "real" App Store is the Apple App Store, but Apple is after Amazon for using it.
post #16 of 63
That's a bit absurd coming from a company that has barely moved passed symbian of all things.

Nokia must be on the verge of death or something, it seems to have developed dementia
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post #17 of 63
Has there been any mention on AI about Kodak's reprieve in its case against Apple and RIM in the patent courts?
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post #18 of 63
How about using this ip, and building a windows phone. We still haven't seen one and it has been a while since the announcement.
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post #19 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

This is just getting ridiculous. Smells like a personal vendetta.

C

Well they are struggling for their very existence now so anything goes I suppose. Nokia was one of the companies that laughed out loud when Steve announced the iPhone. I remember the condescending statements made about Apple and its entry into the cell phone market.

If Nokia wants to spend the money to do this then that's their business. I'm guessing they think that if they sling enough mud something might stick. Who knows, maybe they will prevail in part.

Everybody is suing everybody these days. It's become a basic part of business models these days apparently.
post #20 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post


It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

I'm happy with my iPhone and have no intention of switching back, just don't jump to conclusions with regards to this patent battle.

Quite true.

As a shareholder, the ongoing battle with Nokia is a big concern for me.

I'd actually be surprised if both parties weren't infringing. I think (and hope) that this will end with negotiated cross licensing and some licensing fees.
post #21 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'd hardly call them a little company

It has nothing to do with it's physical size.

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post #22 of 63
and the use of Bluetooth accessories.

Wow. I guess everyone didn't realize the ramifications of using BlueTooth as a STANDARD. What if someone actually used USB connectors -- I'm sure there is a patent on that as well.

It seems that Nokia has realized they cannot compete in the smart phone arena, so they are going towards the "Patent Troll" model.

-- not that Apple doesn't sue everyone else as well. But I'm guessing that we will find these really trivial and obvious patents. Like when you get a Radio, and you figure someone is going to need an antennae -- so now someone sues over adding an Antennae to Wireless devices.

I'm still saddened that Amazon won that "single click to purchase" patent -- like, the patents for 3, 4 and 5 blades on a razor held by different companies. Is there one for 6 blades, or would that be ostentatious?
post #23 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'd hardly call them a little company, also at this moment in time we do not actually know what the outcome of this action will be.

It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

Nokia has been in the communication business for over 20 years, their patent portfollio is very strong.

You make that assertion, but the evidence shows otherwise. Nokia couldn't convince the ITC that Apple has infringed on their patents. I would assume those particular patents were the most relevant examples of infringement that Nokia could use, or their lawyers are terrible strategists.

And now Nokia is leveling new charges against Apple, but Apple has their own arsenal of patents. Apple may have only entered the cell phone business in the last 5 years, but that doesn't mean their patent portfolio is limited to that time frame.
post #24 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcworth@charter.net View Post

Not really, you have to defend a patent if you want to keep it. If you miss one patent, it will come back to haunt you. Apple is the same, they serve anyone who infringes on patents or trade marks. You cannot even have iMac or apple or any other Apple trademark as a license plate if you are a fanboy. And, whats with the App Store? We all know the "real" App Store is the Apple App Store, but Apple is after Amazon for using it.

You are confusing patents with trademarks. Trademarks have to be defended, patents don't have to be defended. Just look at the trolls who thought that they owned a patent for gif. They waited until everybody and there brother used it on the internet before trying to gouge everyone for patent violations. It didn't matter that they did nothing to defend it for the previous decade.

As for patents, well let's just say that IP law all over the world has gone completely nuts. I mean when anyone can tell you with a straight face that copyright must exist for life + 75 years or nobody would create anything or that clicking on a virtual button to buy something is actually novel, you know it is all a joke. Unfortunately, it isn't a very funny one.

Maybe Apple should just buy Nokia and be done with it.
post #25 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'd hardly call them a little company, also at this moment in time we do not actually know what the outcome of this action will be.

It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

Nokia has been in the communication business for over 20 years, their patent portfollio is very strong.

I'll concur that they have fallen behind Apple and others with regards to smart phones in recent years but contrary to what seem to be popular American opinion they do not make trash.

I used Nokia handsets for around 10 years before Apple released their iPhone and every single one of them gave me good solid service with no issues whatsoever both in terms of build quality and the software which they ran.

I'm happy with my iPhone and have no intention of switching back, just don't jump to conclusions with regards to this patent battle.

However, the chances of the new claims getting anywhere are slim.

Nokia first claimed that Apple had violated 5 patents. ITC shot them down. Now, they're claiming that Apple violates 7 different patents. In both cases, they claimed that virtually every Apple product was violating Nokia's patents.

Here are the possibilities:

1. Nokia did what was expected - and chose their 5 best patents for the original complaint. In that case, the odds of the next 7 getting anywhere is slim.

2. Nokia put some law school drop out on the case - and they chose bad examples for the first complaint, but now they have better examples. Aside from ITC getting upset with them for wasting their time, the fact that the lawyers handling the matter as well as the business execs who are involved all picked bad examples the first time suggests that they're too incompetent to win, anyway.

It is clear that Nokia is grasping at straws.
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post #26 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

and the use of Bluetooth accessories.

Wow. I guess everyone didn't realize the ramifications of using BlueTooth as a STANDARD. What if someone actually used USB connectors -- I'm sure there is a patent on that as well.

It seems that Nokia has realized they cannot compete in the smart phone arena, so they are going towards the "Patent Troll" model.

-- not that Apple doesn't sue everyone else as well. But I'm guessing that we will find these really trivial and obvious patents. Like when you get a Radio, and you figure someone is going to need an antennae -- so now someone sues over adding an Antennae to Wireless devices.

I'm still saddened that Amazon won that "single click to purchase" patent -- like, the patents for 3, 4 and 5 blades on a razor held by different companies. Is there one for 6 blades, or would that be ostentatious?

Especially seeing as Ericsson invented Bluetooth with no contribution from Nokia.
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post #27 of 63
another day of troll messages by the ever faithful, and equally ever blind here at AI.

people expect any company (that's not apple) to give away their vault keys to each and every one of their competitors simply because IP patents and Copyrights are unfavourable ideas to consumers.

Sadly, you need to understand that the motivation for a company to research is to make technological break-throughs, and to in turn build better products to differentiate themselves in the free market from their competitors. Where is the motivation to spend all that money on research if anyone can come along and steal the ideas?

Nokia, however you view their current line-up of phones, is historically a huge innovator in the mobile market, many of the things we take for granted in mobile devices are all down to Nokia, and - as stated here - the billions of dollars it spent in research investment.

Apple does the same thing, it spends a lot of money researching, it patents ideas and techniques, and sometimes licenses those to third parties. Apple need to stop being hypocrites and be respectful to others when trying to compete, ESPECIALLY when it is so vocal and slap-happy with lawsuits.
post #28 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Especially seeing as Ericsson invented Bluetooth with no contribution from Nokia.

Good observation there.
post #29 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

I did not realize frivolous lawsuits were big in Europe? I thought since Microsoft took over Nokia they would not be so desperate? Nokia must realize, as does anyone with half a brain, Windows Phone is a DOA, so now they are grasping at straws and throwing everything they can at Apple to see if something sticks.

I am still amazed at how Microsoft took over Nokia and is going to run it into the ground with a crappy phone OS.

They now have a check book signed by Ballmer to pay the lawyers maybe this might get nasty? Ironic if this is what's going on since Microsoft really only exist due to IMB's might and bank balance defending their scrawny ass in the early days of their thievery.
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post #30 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

How can you make that statement without even knowing which 7 patents they are claiming Apple violated? If there is an even stronger case of infringement for these 7 than there were for the last 5, then their lawyers are fools for not leading with their stronger case to establish infringement. Because that would make future cases easier. And it has been proven time and time again that just because you have a patent doesn't mean it's enforceable against someone else. Two similar ideas can be implemented in totally different ways.

What miracle technological implementation has Apple used in the iPhone that is so vastly different from every other smartphone (or cell phone in general) that Apple has stolen from Nokia? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I do think it's improbable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mknopp View Post

You are confusing patents with trademarks. Trademarks have to be defended, patents don't have to be defended. Just look at the trolls who thought that they owned a patent for gif. They waited until everybody and there brother used it on the internet before trying to gouge everyone for patent violations. It didn't matter that they did nothing to defend it for the previous decade.

I'm not sure that is true. My understanding was that patents also needed to be defended. Perhaps not to the same level as trademark, but I was under the impression that you still needed to defend your patents if you knew of infringement or else risk losing your patent rights. Of course, the key is "knowing of infringement". With physical objects and devices it's relatively easy to examine a competitor's product and determine if they are infringing on your patent. But when you are talking about computer code, it's a bit harder to do that.
post #31 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Custa1200 View Post

You would think spending 43B euros that they could build something more than the cr@p they build

They didn't spend $43 Billion Euros. They didn't have $43 Billion Euros to spend.
post #32 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

However, the chances of the new claims getting anywhere are slim.

Nokia first claimed that Apple had violated 5 patents. ITC shot them down. Now, they're claiming that Apple violates 7 different patents. In both cases, they claimed that virtually every Apple product was violating Nokia's patents.

Here are the possibilities:

1. Nokia did what was expected - and chose their 5 best patents for the original complaint. In that case, the odds of the next 7 getting anywhere is slim.

2. Nokia put some law school drop out on the case - and they chose bad examples for the first complaint, but now they have better examples. Aside from ITC getting upset with them for wasting their time, the fact that the lawyers handling the matter as well as the business execs who are involved all picked bad examples the first time suggests that they're too incompetent to win, anyway.

It is clear that Nokia is grasping at straws.

Correct. And when Nokia loses this second round the repercussions back at them will damage them severely.
post #33 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

How can you make that statement without even knowing which 7 patents they are claiming Apple violated? If there is an even stronger case of infringement for these 7 than there were for the last 5, then their lawyers are fools for not leading with their stronger case to establish infringement. Because that would make future cases easier. And it has been proven time and time again that just because you have a patent doesn't mean it's enforceable against someone else. Two similar ideas can be implemented in totally different ways.

I made the statement because it's true. It's entirely possible that Apple has infringed on Nokia's patents, it's also entirely possible that Nokia is in the wrong and does not have a foot to stand on.

My point was quite simply that most people here in the forum have already decided that either Apple or Nokia are right without and facts being laid out.
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post #34 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I'm not sure that is true. My understanding was that patents also needed to be defended.

Your understanding was very wrong.
post #35 of 63
Personally I think AT&T should ask and pay for Apple to settle with Nokia on the Call Quality patent.
post #36 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by shao View Post

another day of troll messages by the ever faithful, and equally ever blind here at AI.

people expect any company (that's not apple) to give away their vault keys to each and every one of their competitors simply because IP patents and Copyrights are unfavourable ideas to consumers.

Sadly, you need to understand that the motivation for a company to research is to make technological break-throughs, and to in turn build better products to differentiate themselves in the free market from their competitors. Where is the motivation to spend all that money on research if anyone can come along and steal the ideas?

Nokia, however you view their current line-up of phones, is historically a huge innovator in the mobile market, many of the things we take for granted in mobile devices are all down to Nokia, and - as stated here - the billions of dollars it spent in research investment.

Apple does the same thing, it spends a lot of money researching, it patents ideas and techniques, and sometimes licenses those to third parties. Apple need to stop being hypocrites and be respectful to others when trying to compete, ESPECIALLY when it is so vocal and slap-happy with lawsuits.

So, which one of these posts made you write this? I don't see anyone that expects "any company (that's not apple) to give away their vault keys to each and every one of their competitors simply because IP patents and Copyrights are unfavourable ideas to consumers."
post #37 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by shao View Post

another day of troll messages by the ever faithful, and equally ever blind here at AI.

people expect any company (that's not apple) to give away their vault keys to each and every one of their competitors simply because IP patents and Copyrights are unfavourable ideas to consumers.

Sadly, you need to understand that the motivation for a company to research is to make technological break-throughs, and to in turn build better products to differentiate themselves in the free market from their competitors. Where is the motivation to spend all that money on research if anyone can come along and steal the ideas?

Nokia, however you view their current line-up of phones, is historically a huge innovator in the mobile market, many of the things we take for granted in mobile devices are all down to Nokia, and - as stated here - the billions of dollars it spent in research investment.

Apple does the same thing, it spends a lot of money researching, it patents ideas and techniques, and sometimes licenses those to third parties. Apple need to stop being hypocrites and be respectful to others when trying to compete, ESPECIALLY when it is so vocal and slap-happy with lawsuits.

But in this particular case, your claim that Apple is "slap-happy with lawsuits" isn't demonstrably true. Nokia brought the initial action against Apple, Apple then responded with their own patent infringement claims, and now Nokia is back for round 2.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to find more than a few examples where Apple initiated litigation against another technology firm (HTC, Psystar, and Amazon come to mind). They are much more likely to be on the receiving end of a lawsuit (Motorola, Elan, Kodak, or Nokia).
post #38 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

They now have a check book signed by Ballmer to pay the lawyers maybe this might get nasty?

next time, please understand the MS / Nokia deal before you open your mouth and look like an slightly retarded child.
post #39 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'd hardly call them a little company, also at this moment in time we do not actually know what the outcome of this action will be.

Technically you are correct. But these patents aren't ones Nokia has brought to the dance until now, and they lost with the first string patents they thought were slam dunk wins. How likely is it that the third string of a defensive patent portfolio is successful in an offensive role? My bet is not very.

Quote:
It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

And due to the recent rulung by the ITC that Nokias first and best case against Apple was a total loss, this looks not to be the case.

Quote:
Nokia has been in the communication business for over 20 years, their patent portfollio is very strong.

I'll concur that they have fallen behind Apple and others with regards to smart phones in recent years but contrary to what seem to be popular American opinion they do not make trash.

I used Nokia handsets for around 10 years before Apple released their iPhone and every single one of them gave me good solid service with no issues whatsoever both in terms of build quality and the software which they ran.

I'm happy with my iPhone and have no intention of switching back, just don't jump to conclusions with regards to this patent battle.

No conclusions, but when you lose your initial case trumpeted as 'rock solid, no way to lose' by the Nokia CEO it doesn't bode well for the lawyers that are running the case. It gives the distinct impression Nokia sat on it's laurels and patented defensively rather than aggressively and with a flair of innovation. Defensive patents lose in offensive actions regularly because the Patent Office has too big a task to differentiate everything. So the courts and ITC hash it out for the Patent Office, and the defensive patents are often either too narrow to win offensive actions or get tossed as non-original.

After losing their first ITC case against Apple, Nokia is in some trouble and in a holding action to see if they lose against Apple's counter-offensive with the iPhone patent portfolio. I really think they are hoping to bully Apple int a settlement where Nokia doesn't lose it's shirt. But I think Apple is pissed and willing to stand on Nokia's throat a bit in the courtroom, just to make them an example while looking at Google and Microsoft and saying "you don't want to mess with us in the courtroom folks."
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post #40 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I made the statement because it's true. It's entirely possible that Apple has infringed on Nokia's patents, it's also entirely possible that Nokia is in the wrong and does not have a foot to stand on.

My point was quite simply that most people here in the forum have already decided that either Apple or Nokia are right without and facts being laid out.

well, we do have the fact that the ITC ruled against them in their last attempt. And there's the seeming absurdity that they include Macs in their dispute this time and point to multitasking as an infringement when multitasking predates cell phones.
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