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Nokia targets iPhone, iPad & more in second ITC complaint against Apple - Page 2

post #41 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

Perhaps their strategy is to accuse Apple of violating ALL of their patents so that they can use the legal process to determine which of their patents Apple is in fact NOT violating so they can figure out which ideas were mistakes and they can then focus on the ones that Apple is actually using.

A game of 'toss the pasta on the wall and see what sticks' is not going to win them points with the courts or the ITC when it becomes clear that that is the game.

They will possibly get things tossed for being too broad etc.

And this is before the ones that Apple gets shot down with the point that X was based of their own patent A and so on

Quote:
Originally Posted by mknopp View Post

You are confusing patents with trademarks. Trademarks have to be defended, patents don't have to be defended.

While this is true, I'm more and more thinking it should be the other way. That companies should have to speak up during a limited time (say 2 years) once another company potentially infringes or it will be deemed as 'you don't care about it' and is allowed to continue as they were. Or at the least, reduce the amount of damages. So like if you let someone clearly go for 5+ years infringing on your patent you should only be allowed actual damages for licensing fees not received (at a fair rate) and no additional damages 'just cause'

Not to mention the dumping of all 'only an idea' patents out of the books. Sorry but they never should have been allowed. Or say allow someone to patent an idea but for a short time. If during that time they can develop the tech then they get a full patent on it. So like 3 years for a mere idea, 20 for their actual tech. But after that 3 years, the idea is in the open. Anyone can try to develop a different tech for the same notion.

And as much as I hate to say it, I think we need more 3rd party oversight on patent uses and licensing. It could be as simple as forcing companies to publish licensing rates to insure that all companies are being asked for the same amount. This was the crux of Apple's issues. They claim that Nokia tried to ask for way more than they do from any other company. Even double dipping on patents they jointly own that Apple licensed from the collective. Perhaps something like requiring copies of all licensing deals be filled with the ITC when signed to be opened and reviewed during any disputes (along with appropriate other deal papers depending on the nature of the complaint) would be enough. Perhaps also requiring some kind of usage notes fillings to show linkage between patents and later art wouldn't be out of order. Say Apple has a patent on their 'dock' in Mac OS (very likely) and decides to use it in iOS where it appears as the 'multi task bar'. Depending on the system it could be a use note on the original patent or a second patent where it clearly states that they are expanding their own 'prior art' in Patent XYZ as a basis for this new patent. Paper trail created as they go instead of trying to show it later where folks will try to twist things around to suit their needs. And so on

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #42 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by shao View Post

next time, please understand the MS / Nokia deal before you open your mouth and look like an slightly retarded child.

huh? Microsoft bribed Nokia with a billion USD to use Windows Phone 7. So, yes, they are bankrolling this. Perhaps you should report back to your Microsoft handlers for the latest talking points to astro-turf with?
post #43 of 63
Apple should just pull a Microsoft move. Buy the company, ax their development of hardware and software and do nothing with it. Just acquire their patents and move on with in.

Nokia, may you rest in peace.
post #44 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by shao View Post

next time, please understand the MS / Nokia deal before you open your mouth and look like an slightly retarded child.

Please don't be stupid. Why would you use the word 'retarded' there, where it makes no sense?

I don't understand why there has been a sudden influx of easily butthurt fools here. If you can't take a joke directed at your company of choice (who are looking increasingly desperate) then don't come here and throw silly insults like that here.
post #45 of 63
If at first you don't succeed... try, try again!

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #46 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Say Apple has a patent on their 'dock' in Mac OS (very likely) and decides to use it in iOS where it appears as the 'multi task bar'. Depending on the system it could be a use note on the original patent or a second patent where it clearly states that they are expanding their own 'prior art' in Patent XYZ as a basis for this new patent. Paper trail created as they go instead of trying to show it later where folks will try to twist things around to suit their needs. And so on

Good points there. I think these are very good ideas.

And yes, Apple did indeed receive a patent on their dock (which took no less than 9 years):
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._the_dock.html

Wish Apple would license their dock invention to Microsoft as I am using Windows 7 at work and their implementation of a 'dock' is quite infuriating (sp?) with the position of icons being changed and all. But I digress.
post #47 of 63
What I find interesting about the patent lawsuits many times these patents are base on some sort of "implementation" and in this modern days most of that implementation lies in software or customer chips. Unless the patent holder has intimate knowledge of how another company design or wrote code it is very hard to prove they infringe on your patents.

Going after all of Apples products is pure desperation since there is no way they tore into each every product and was able to determine if their "implementation" was exactly what they patent.

I believe of the reason ITC through out most of Nokia claims is due to the fact they were base on patents which were licensed by the chip manufactures had for their implementation of the GSM technologies which Nokia claim Apple in fringed. Again they are going after Bluetooth technologies which a standard which Apple buys a chip from Boardcom and Boardcom most likely has their own IP or have license from the Bluetooth standards.

As someone pointed out we now know who is running Nokia these days it is the lawyers not the Engineers.
post #48 of 63
Desperate move by Nokia.
post #49 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

What miracle technological implementation has Apple used in the iPhone that is so vastly different from every other smartphone (or cell phone in general) ....

Well there is a huge difference in what Apple did and what other companies did to Nokia. Other companies churned out easy products to compete against. Apple didn't. That is the difference.
post #50 of 63
Quote:
Nokia is a leading innovator in technologies needed to build great mobile products

So, where are the great products?
post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Wish Apple would license their dock invention to Microsoft as I am using Windows 7 at work and their implementation of a 'dock' is quite infuriating (sp?) with the position of icons being changed and all. But I digress.

Right-Click task bar icon | Pin this program to taskbar
post #52 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Custa1200 View Post

You would think spending 43B euros that they could build something more than the cr@p they build

Lawyers are very expensive in US as well as in Erope. 43B eros are spedt rather quickly. The way Nokia acts, I don't see much leftover for real invention and development.
post #53 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'd hardly call them a little company, also at this moment in time we do not actually know what the outcome of this action will be.

It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

Nokia has been in the communication business for over 20 years, their patent portfollio is very strong.

I'll concur that they have fallen behind Apple and others with regards to smart phones in recent years but contrary to what seem to be popular American opinion they do not make trash.

I used Nokia handsets for around 10 years before Apple released their iPhone and every single one of them gave me good solid service with no issues whatsoever both in terms of build quality and the software which they ran.

I'm happy with my iPhone and have no intention of switching back, just don't jump to conclusions with regards to this patent battle.


Excuse me. I have used a Nokia phone and it was pure garbage. The Ui was pathetic, and the call quality abysmal, where as on my iPhone it was perfectly clear.
Your opinion of Nokia garbage is way over rated, and this is proven by their CEOs announcement and subsequent slave to Master relationship with microshit.
Have you been reading any news at all lately ?
post #54 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcworth@charter.net View Post

Not really, you have to defend a patent if you want to keep it. If you miss one patent, it will come back to haunt you. Apple is the same, they serve anyone who infringes on patents or trade marks. You cannot even have iMac or apple or any other Apple trademark as a license plate if you are a fanboy. And, whats with the App Store? We all know the "real" App Store is the Apple App Store, but Apple is after Amazon for using it.

Hi Apple hater, maybe you should move along now as you have crapped your shit on this site.
post #55 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by shao View Post

another day of troll messages by the ever faithful, and equally ever blind here at AI.

people expect any company (that's not apple) to give away their vault keys to each and every one of their competitors simply because IP patents and Copyrights are unfavourable ideas to consumers.

Sadly, you need to understand that the motivation for a company to research is to make technological break-throughs, and to in turn build better products to differentiate themselves in the free market from their competitors. Where is the motivation to spend all that money on research if anyone can come along and steal the ideas?

Nokia, however you view their current line-up of phones, is historically a huge innovator in the mobile market, many of the things we take for granted in mobile devices are all down to Nokia, and - as stated here - the billions of dollars it spent in research investment.

Apple does the same thing, it spends a lot of money researching, it patents ideas and techniques, and sometimes licenses those to third parties. Apple need to stop being hypocrites and be respectful to others when trying to compete, ESPECIALLY when it is so vocal and slap-happy with lawsuits.

You are what I call a pseudo intellect, you use some big words, but at the end of the day, just talk bull shit. What are you actually saying here ?
Do You know most other companies use Apple as their R&D, has this fact escaped your attention.
Who is copying who here, I can list you (but won't bother as it will be a waste of my precious time) many example of those stealing Apple's ideas.
post #56 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by shao View Post

next time, please understand the MS / Nokia deal before you open your mouth and look like an slightly retarded child.

Yeah its where Nokia drops their pants and microshit shafts them.
post #57 of 63
It seems that Nokia/Microsoft are wasting their time with all these lawsuits. The Post about it said that the comanies began to formerly investigate everything that apple does early in 2010. Wouldn't it be more logical to stop fighting apple with crappy lawsuits and crappy phones/operating systems and build a properly made phone and unique phone OS. They could have made a really big leap in development in that past year. But the two companies decided to go awall on trying to sue apple... Just make a better product for once geez..
post #58 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

Right-Click task bar icon | Pin this program to taskbar

Thanks, did that. But the icon still changes in size when opening or closing the program, therefore moving all other icons right or left. Quite annoying. Apple's dock is so much better, logical and informative... MS will probably never get it right.
post #59 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Especially seeing as Ericsson invented Bluetooth with no contribution from Nokia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Good observation there.

No, a poor observation actually, Bluetooth was originally invented by Ericsson, but there were additions (with patents) added by a number of companies, one of which is a founding member of the Bluetooth SIG, Nokia
post #60 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'd hardly call them a little company, also at this moment in time we do not actually know what the outcome of this action will be.

It is quite possible that Apple has infringed on their patents.

Nokia has been in the communication business for over 20 years, their patent portfollio is very strong.

I'll concur that they have fallen behind Apple and others with regards to smart phones in recent years but contrary to what seem to be popular American opinion they do not make trash.

I used Nokia handsets for around 10 years before Apple released their iPhone and every single one of them gave me good solid service with no issues whatsoever both in terms of build quality and the software which they ran.

I'm happy with my iPhone and have no intention of switching back, just don't jump to conclusions with regards to this patent battle.

Compared to Apple they are a little company, their technology is outdated and has been for years, they have little or no smart phone technology, their products suck so much that they bleed market share. All companies that team with Microsoft end up getting their heads cut off at the ankles. As far as this Americans opinion goes, they do make junk, I have owned two of their phones and thru both in the trash.
post #61 of 63
For those of your with short attention spans or easily reassignable memory, it was Nokia that filed the complaint with the ITC claiming that Apple was infringing their patents when Apple refused to pay additional royalties to Nokia (above the recommended Fair and Equitable licensing for allowing the use of patented technology in a standard). Remember, Apple claims that Nokia was demanding higher than fees than they charge others for the use of the GSM standard patents, as well as licensing of Apple technology patents. This whole set-to developed out of Nokia trying to leverage Apple technology and charge Apple more than they do other handset manufacturers for the use of GSM-related technologies

That the ITC has thrown out the initial round of claims, indicates that Nokia needs to come up with better claims. Let's not forget also that the use of suits and complaints is about leveraging your competition. If you find yourself unable to respond quick enough to the development of another company, you can try to slow them down (especially if you have a wide patent portfolio like Nokia does), to buy you time to repair your market position. In this case Nokia seems to be firing wildly to keep pressure on Apple. IN Apple's case the appropriate response is to do what they have done - countersue and file counter-claims, and of course hire one of the BEST litigators in IP disputes to represent your interests. With the Microsoft partnership Nokia is not going to let up, just like Microsoft weighing in on the "App Store" trademark. None of these companies are going to give Apple any quarter, since Apple's success is challenging their positions. Apple has a strong warchest for just such issues.
post #62 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewysBlackmore View Post

For those of your with short attention spans or easily reassignable memory, it was Nokia that filed the complaint with the ITC claiming that Apple was infringing their patents when Apple refused to pay additional royalties to Nokia (above the recommended Fair and Equitable licensing for allowing the use of patented technology in a standard). Remember, Apple claims that Nokia was demanding higher than fees than they charge others for the use of the GSM standard patents, as well as licensing of Apple technology patents. This whole set-to developed out of Nokia trying to leverage Apple technology and charge Apple more than they do other handset manufacturers for the use of GSM-related technologies
.

Provide proof of these claims, naming Apple as the proof isn't valid.
post #63 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewysBlackmore View Post

For those of your with short attention spans or easily reassignable memory, it was Nokia that filed the complaint with the ITC claiming that Apple was infringing their patents when Apple refused to pay additional royalties to Nokia (above the recommended Fair and Equitable licensing for allowing the use of patented technology in a standard). Remember, Apple claims that Nokia was demanding higher than fees than they charge others for the use of the GSM standard patents, as well as licensing of Apple technology patents. This whole set-to developed out of Nokia trying to leverage Apple technology and charge Apple more than they do other handset manufacturers for the use of GSM-related technologies

That the ITC has thrown out the initial round of claims, indicates that Nokia needs to come up with better claims.

I don't know what your point is? Nokia complained and lost, lost big, as in o-fer 5 in their original case. That pretty much makes the case moot unless an appeal overturns it. Anyone can claim anything, but that doesn't make it true. It also doesn't say Nokia needs better claims, it simply states those claims by Nokia were unfounded. Big difference because a ruling saying the claims needed improvement wouldn't have said no infringement, they would have just identified the claims as being improperly written up. A No Infringement ruling removes that kind of wriggle-room.

Quote:
Let's not forget also that the use of suits and complaints is about leveraging your competition. If you find yourself unable to respond quick enough to the development of another company, you can try to slow them down (especially if you have a wide patent portfolio like Nokia does), to buy you time to repair your market position. In this case Nokia seems to be firing wildly to keep pressure on Apple. IN Apple's case the appropriate response is to do what they have done - countersue and file counter-claims, and of course hire one of the BEST litigators in IP disputes to represent your interests. With the Microsoft partnership Nokia is not going to let up, just like Microsoft weighing in on the "App Store" trademark. None of these companies are going to give Apple any quarter, since Apple's success is challenging their positions. Apple has a strong warchest for just such issues.

OK, so?
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