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Google clamps down on handset makers to stem Android fragmentation - Page 4

post #121 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

What the heck does everyone here have against Android? What did it do to you!?

It can only help you. It has lots stuff you don't have (yet) that will be good for you if Apple copies it. Like being able to return apps you don't like. Would you like that? Multitasking, Flash, etc.

It's the same attacks I've seen against Flash. Lots of hateful posts against Flash. Most are just "I hate it", not even justification like it's slow, eats battery etc. Which by the way neither is true on my Droid 2, works smooth, lasts hours watching vids. I watched several Daily Shows on it yesterday. Right on the full-version website.

I use Macs because for me they are better than Windows. Not because it's "cooler". Similarly, Android has proved great for me, in many ways doing things iOS can't.

I hate MS because they are evil as well as having bad products. They crush (crushed) innovation with illegal business practices so it makes sense to root against them (kind of like rooting against the other evil empire, the Yankees). But Google, whether you like it or not, is at least more open than Apple. Maybe not 100% granola-eating GPL3 open. But, want to install an app not on the Market (their App Store)? Just uncheck a button in Prefs that says Only Allow Official Market App installations. More settings. More customization. Widgets. Multiple launchers. Custom ROMs (because it is open source unlike iOS). It's more customizable, that's a fact. There are downsides to this, sure. But I'm getting tired of seeing comment after comment at Apple sites mindlessly bashing Android. Does it have more lag sometimes? Yes. But jeez. The dire predictions for Android could be true. On the other hand it could be Windows of mobile devices. In which case I'll be glad I jumped on board early. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

Nothing against Android. Google copied a lot of good ideas from Apple, and put it into the hands of many handset makers who would otherwise be shut out of competing with the iPhone.

If not Google, then someone else would have eventually done this. Microsoft is doing it. Palm copied Apple too, but didn't license their OS.

The problem I have with Google is that they are quite literally believe their own BS about "don't be evil." The problem with the "don't be evil" philosophy is that it makes you start to believe that whatever you are doing is cannot possibly be evil. It's a pair of blinders that makes you think everyone else is "evil" or morally wrong. I think it's BS though, but some people really dig it, and they think Google and by extension, Android, is awesome.

I don't interpret Google's "openness" or their embrace of Flash as pro-consumer altruism. They only support these things when it is convenient for them, just like any other company would.

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post #122 of 145
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Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

What the heck does everyone here have against Android? What did it do to you!?

An android killed my dog.
Quote:
I use Macs because for me they are better than Windows. Not because it's "cooler".

Chicks dig a guy with a Mac.
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post #123 of 145
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post #124 of 145
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post #125 of 145
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Originally Posted by briavael View Post

They may not have a monopoly in the mobile OS side, but the argument could be made that they are abusing their monopoly position in search. According to Microsoft, Google has 95% of the search market in Europe. If they leverage that into the mobile OS realm, it gives them a significant lead against Bing or other search platforms. Their domination in the search market is the key to any action brought against them. The US regulators likely won't touch Google, but I expect the EC would be much more receptive to competitors' claims.

There is certainly an argument to be made to support your point, but I would say that is not the case. If Google told people that if they wanted to continue using their search engine theyd have to also use an Android phone instead of any other mobile OS then that would be an abuse of their market position.

Ignoring that the scenario makes no sense as it cant be enforced, what Google is doing is nothing more than what HP/Palm, MS, Apple or others have done. They want to control the OS. If anything Id think bait-and-switch would be most apropos but I dont know how that would be dealt with legally since its free. I cant see developers doing a class action lawsuit for the time and money lost in supporting an open OS that is now closed.

Maybe Google planned this from the start, and maybe they planned this switch for a time when they had a heathy marketshare but well below any monopoly share. If they did that its not the Do no evil company they say they are but I dont think its illegal and would be hard to prove if that is what they planned from the start.
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post #126 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Profits only benefit shareholders. For consumers, where do you think that money comes from?

Because customers dont benefit from a healthy company that can afford to support their products and customers without fear of going under¡
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post #127 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Do you honestly believe iOS is currently outselling Android?

If so, you might want to try this link first.

(Why this silly desire to want to compare to mobile OSes and not the complete product? Youre just setting yourself to get your ass handed to you again today, but maybe you like you like to get beaten down like a rag doll on forums. So lets begin, Ill start off gentle and then work into a slaughter in future posts.)

Neither OS is for SALE!!!!

The iPhone is outselling any other vendors phones utilizing Android OS.

Again, tell us why Apple cares about OS marketshare over profits and why HTC is happy Moto is taking their business for the same mobile OS?
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post #128 of 145
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by jcsegenmd
AL has been disappearing from medical English for decades (I should know, I write medical dictionaries), and there is no rhyme or reason as to when something is pathologic or pathological, physiologic or physiological, microbioogical or microbiologic (you get the point). I suspect eventually somebody will bury "AL" and we won't even have a funeral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That sounds illogic.

Exactly. To be consistent, the poster will have to start writing "medic dictionaries" for a living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

I know Apple has had missteps recently...but they don't seem to be so contrary to their fundamental principals.

Surely you mean "their fundamental princips." Although you actually meant "principles," unless that is, you were (correctly, if indirectly) referring to Jobs, Ive and Cook as the fundamental principals of Apple, Inc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul94544 View Post

Open/Closed whatever.

a new word - Android is Clopen

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmovie View Post

Did you just make that up?
Great.
I'm adding it to my other new vocabulary word of the month — "fugly".

Who says English is a dead language?

Last I heard, unlike French, English is still an open source language, in fact the most open language on the planet. Anyone can alter the source code...

...using the "Creative Commoners" license of course.

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post #129 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Because customers don’t benefit from a healthy company that can afford to support their products and customers without fear of going under¡

Not to mention a company with the resources to do real R&D can make real improvements to their products, instead of just putting the latest parts in a box and calling it a day.

Google can improve Android if it chooses; you'll notice none of the low margin handset makers bothered to come up with something like the iPad. Because low margins don't fund that kind of work. Now, of course, they're all rushing to put the latest parts into an iPad shaped box, but in a world with only low margin parts assemblers (the kind the OP apparently thinks are good for consumers) that never happens, because there was never anyone with a business model that allows them to look up from doing what everybody else is doing.
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post #130 of 145
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post #131 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Dude, you're getting increasingly weird.

Look, make up whatever arbitrary divisions you need to come up with whatever math makes you feel good.

The bottom line is that when Android premiered many here (I believe that would include yourself) said it would never catch up to iOS. When it eclipsed iOS last year suddenly the only conversation you want to have is about individual manufacturers, but slice and dice as you may the proof is in the pudding:

After 20 years of trying Apple has barely 10% of the computer market, and we are now seeing iOS growth begin to level off as Apple settles into a minority position in the emerging mobile market as well.

Let's reconvene here this time next year and see if you're so full of swagger then....

I notice you still can't answer the simple question: "What benefit does HTC derive from Motorola selling a phone with supposedly the 'same' OS (though not really)?" Each manufacturer has nothing to show for the sale of some other manufacturer's phones with their proprietary iteration of "Android" other than a lost customer.

This is the same situation as in the PC market, only worse. At least Windows is actually the same on all those landfill-bound e-waste beige boxes. Imagine if every manufacturer had its own proprietary modifications which made them incompatible with all the others. You think "Windows" would still have 90% of the market? Hell, maybe they wouldbut who would benefit from this other than Microsoft?

The only ones benefiting from the market spread of hundreds of different versions of "Android" are Google and the spamsters they deliver your eyeballs to. Enjoy your triumph while the handset manufacturers trapped in this vicious cycle go bankrupt, just like in the PC race to the bottom. I thought the Stockholm Syndrome among Windows fanboys was bad, but you Fandroids are something else!
post #132 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

After 20 years of trying Apple has barely 10% of the computer market, and we are now seeing iOS growth begin to level off as Apple settles into a minority position in the emerging mobile market as well.

Let's reconvene here this time next year and see if you're so full of swagger then....

"Leveling off"? You do get that the iPad is an iOS device, right? And that Apple keeps selling more iPhones every quarter? A great many more iPhones?

And that it seems pretty unlikely that the iPad represents the final introduction of an iOS device that Apple will bother with?

By all means lets reconvene in a year and see where we're at.
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post #133 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

The bottom line is that when Android premiered many here (I believe that would include yourself) said it would never catch up to iOS. When it eclipsed iOS last year suddenly the only conversation you want to have is about individual manufacturers, but slice and dice as you may the proof is in the pudding:.

Ive been saying since day one that Android should trounce iOS in marketshare because its a free OS used by dozens and dozens of manufacturers. Ive even wondered why its taking so long to beat iOS because of this fact that you constantly ignore.

Quote:
After 20 years of trying Apple has barely 10% of the computer market, and we are now seeing iOS growth begin to level off as Apple settles into a minority position in the emerging mobile market as well..

Heres where your logic fails again and again and again. Apples been trying to make a profit just like any other for-profit company, yet you keep saying theyve only been trying to capture marketshare. if that were true then why does Apple 1) singlehandedly take ⅓ of all PC profits for the world, and 2) not simply license or even give away their OS to any and all that want it?

You livability to understand basic concepts is what prevents you from understanding the difference. Or you are smarter than the words you write but are purposely trolling. I tend to assume you are merely a troll as its the nicer of the two assumptions.
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post #134 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

"Leveling off"? You do get that the iPad is an iOS device, right? And that Apple keeps selling more iPhones every quarter? A great many more iPhones?

And that it seems pretty unlikely that the iPad represents the final introduction of an iOS device that Apple will bother with?

By all means lets reconvene in a year and see where we're at.

If MacRulez wasnt trying to act like such an asshat* all the time he might actually find some relevant data to show that an Adnroid-based handset is doing well against the iPhone.

Take the Verizon HTC Thunderbolt v. Verizon iPhone. It may actually be outselling the iPhone.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/...derbolt-sales/

* I did not call him an asshat, but referred to his actions as such
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post #135 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If MacRulez wasnt trying to act like such an asshat* all the time he might actually find some relevant data to show that an Adnroid-based handset is doing well against the iPhone.

Take the Verizon HTC Thunderbolt v. Verizon iPhone. It may actually be outselling the iPhone.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/...derbolt-sales/

* I did not call him an asshat, but referred to his actions as such

I'm not surprised. I always knew all the predictions about how iPhone sales would explode if it was available on Verizon were so much hooey. I can well believe that an iPhone is much more noticeably crippled on their primitive network than some less sophisticated phones would be.

Who would pay that kind of money for a phone that can't do voice and data at the same time? And who really believes one of these criminal organizations (cellphone carriers) is any better than the others? Gullible people, I guess.
post #136 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If MacRulez wasn’t trying to act like such an asshat* all the time he might actually find some relevant data to show that an Adnroid-based handset is doing well against the iPhone.

Take the Verizon HTC Thunderbolt v. Verizon iPhone. It may actually be outselling the iPhone.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/...derbolt-sales/

* I did not call him an asshat, but referred to his actions as such

And they will continue to do well against the iPhone, for reasons you've well articulated (although perhaps not in quite the way Google had in mind).

However, "iOS" is a platform that Apple appears ready to bet the company on. There isn't another vendor so positioned to combine a desktop and mobile OS with carefully integrated hardware across a vertically integrated system.

Android, as a phone OS, has obvious advantages: baked in Google services, free, ubiquitous, and coming on the scene just as the (Apple initiated) smartphone explosion was taking off. As we've discussed, I'd wager the majority of Android handset sales are going to people who barely know what that means, just that they need a new phone and that's what's available.

However, as mobile moves out from phones to become the new personal computing, the market changes and different assets become more valuable. I'd argue that Apple has those assets in spades, and while Google certainly isn't without resources, easy and pleasant to use computing experiences have not historically been among them. It's a much different thing to build a real computing environment than it is to make a thin Google services client-- as Honeycomb is demonstrating.
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post #137 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

I'm not surprised. I always knew all the predictions about how iPhone sales would explode if it was available on Verizon were so much hooey. I can well believe that an iPhone is much more noticeably crippled on their primitive network than some less sophisticated phones would be.

Who would pay that kind of money for a phone that can't do voice and data at the same time? And who really believes one of these criminal organizations (cellphone carriers) is any better than the others? Gullible people, I guess.

I will surprised if a single model, modern smartphone running Android outsells the iPhones for that year. This is the difference MacRulez simply cant understand. If you want Mac OS or iOS you have to get a Mac or iPhone, and since the models are very limited Apple should be selling more units per model when you compare it to other high-end devices, but they should not be selling more units when you compare all devices using a single OS because they keep the OS for themselves.

I can see it outselling it for a short time frame when its brand new (like MS did with stating the Zunes sales for some odd time frame) but HTC has the same problem as all the other Android-based phones have; they are competing against each other first and foremost.

So far its an analysts speculation. Verizons best selling 1 day launch was the iPhone 4. If the Thunderbolt beats that Im sure wed hear about it from Verizon in a press release. Even if the Thunderbolt doesnt beat that record its inconsequential compared to an non-iPhone phone beating the iPhone 4 in total unit sales, especially if its for a single carrier. This is all good for Verizon because this year theyve shown to have two popular phones covering the two most popular modern mobile OSes. AT&T needs this T-Mobile buyout out Verizon is likely to pull ahead each quarter from Sprint, T-Mo, and, pulling up the rear, AT&T customers jumping ship.

Personally, Im with you. My issues with AT&T are so bad that Id give up the features W-CDMA offers over EV-DO. Its just not worst it to me. I do wonder what will happen with the iPhone 5 will come out. Will they offer both model types at the same time or stagger them. I think Apple has gone to extremes to make the iPhone appear and work similar as possible to each other so the only variant, as seen by the customer, is carrier-based. For this reason I think well get them at the same time.

PS: I think Apple could have used a better CDMA/EV-DO HW in the iPhone 4, not the Qualcomm Gobi chip which appears considerably less efficient than chips not designed for world mode use. They could have given the 3G talk time on that model several more hours as weve seen with other such phones. So why go with the Gobi if you arent going to add the antennas for it? To test the waters for when you do make a true, single model world mode iPhone and/or to make the batteries last the same along all tests to help maintain that artificial similarity in the customers eyes?
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post #138 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Profits only benefit shareholders. For consumers, where do you think that money comes from?

That ol' chestnut. Seeing as how you raised the issue of consumer benefits, how about you tell us how Apple's profits are bad for consumers? Especially in light of them having the most affordable 10" tablet on the market.
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post #139 of 145
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Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

You can buy into the technical arguments made for why they are banned all you want. It's just a big smoke screen for the real reasons, seeing as there was no "technical" reasons apple banned google voice or apps that are "political satire."

Really? If Apple really shared your concerns then they really fucked up by including Safari in the iOS.

Indeed, they must be colossally stupid since they did such a good job with mobile webkit that every other phone except for possibly WP7 uses it.

That's a pretty schizophrenic smokescreen

Quote:
Right. Why don't you recall what apple did to their TOS back in 2009 and how the FTC formally set them straight? It isn't out of kindness of their heart that they allowed Google voice and third party dev tools back in.

Link to "how the FTC formally set them straight" please.

What a tosser...
post #140 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

No, not like Windows. They never allowed a line of source code out of their doors... unless they were compelled to during a court case.

That's not true. There are custom versions of Windows where organizations from governments to private companies paid MS big $$$ to get the source code and create custom versions or just do their own source code review. Many ATMs run custom versions of Windows.

An example.. Rather disturbing one - I went looking for the reference to them providing it to our government. Ugh...
post #141 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Profits only benefit shareholders.

How myopic - you don't think profits allow companies flexibility in their operations?

Or are we on the "companies that make money are evil" class warfare crap that seems to be permeating our society these days?

Quote:
For consumers, where do you think that money comes from?

That has to be one of the stupidest questions I have seen in a long time. Of course it comes from us. But then again, no one is holding a gun to our collective heads. Apple gets and commands a premium on their traditional Mac OSX computers because they offer an experience that people deem to have enough advantages that it's worth paying more for. That's choice! Your almost acting like we are talking about the mis-use of funds collected through taxes or something.

On phones, tablets and MP3 players price isn't even an issue since Apple is not just showing price parity, but so far they are delivering better products cheaper than their competitors. That Apple makes more profit is a combination of them running their company better and just about all of their competitors sucking that much worse. That doesn't mean consumers are getting taken for a ride. If you want to see the definition of being taken for a ride, just look at the state of "tablets" for the decades before Apple introduced the iPad.

Apple being successful doesn't equate consumers loosing. In fact, it's just the opposite. Apple's current success allows them greater opportunity to develop that "next big thing" that as a consumer I benefit from. The mere existence of Apple provides new and unique alternatives and choice. If you don't think so, perhaps you should re-evaluate and consider why is it almost the entire tech press that criticizes Apple for not operating just like everyone else?

Don't like the Apple way? Great! There are plenty of other choices out there - have at them!
post #142 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

he bottom line is that when Android premiered many here (I believe that would include yourself) said it would never catch up to iOS.

Android shipping thousands of copies for which Google gains no direct revenue (especially the Verizon editions that have NO google software on them and Bing instead of google) hardly is the same as Apple selling each and every iOS device, making direct profit on that sale in hardware and software, and also making just as much or more indirect revenue as Google does for Android.

You want to measure success? Let's compare Google and Apple's financials. When Google passes them you might have a point.

Quote:
After 20 years of trying Apple has barely 10% of the computer market, and we are now seeing iOS growth begin to level off as Apple settles into a minority position in the emerging mobile market as well.

What fools we all are - you are absolutely right! Mobile devices are EXACTlY like desktop computing wars from 20 years ago. In fact this chart proves it:

http://ycharts.com/search?q=GOOG%2C%...ket_cap#zoom=5

Whoops! I guess not. That was embarrassing....

Quote:
Let's reconvene here this time next year and see if you're so full of swagger then....

Ha! That's rich. I have a feeling you won't be here next year - and if you are it will be a sock puppet of a different name.
post #143 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Or are we on the "companies that make money are evil" class warfare crap that seems to be permeating our society these days?

Right. By that standard, Apple would be one of the most EEEEEEVVVIIIILLLL companies in the world!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
In which case, I'm happy to participate in Apple's kind of evil.
Quote:
Apple being successful doesn't equate consumers loosing. In fact, it's just the opposite. Apple's current success allows them greater opportunity to develop that "next big thing" that as a consumer I benefit from. The mere existence of Apple provides new and unique alternatives and choice. If you don't think so, perhaps you should re-evaluate and consider why is it almost the entire tech press that criticizes Apple for not operating just like everyone else?

Don't like the Apple way? Great! There are plenty of other choices out there - have at them!

Excellent point. If Apple built crap products and lied/cheated/stole their way to the top, then the "consumers are getting duped out of their money" meme would hold. Yes, Apple's money comes from customers (duh!), but in exchange, customers get "the whole widget"--top quality hardware and software that plays nice together.

And, consumers in general (Apple customers, and everyone else) benefit, because for the last 10 years, Apple has been the rudder that has steered the ship. Apple may not have the overall best market share, but they've basically set the standard for profitable and ethical business practices.
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post #144 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post

Right. By that standard, Apple would be one of the most EEEEEEVVVIIIILLLL companies in the world!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
In which case, I'm happy to participate in Apple's kind of evil.
Excellent point. If Apple built crap products and lied/cheated/stole their way to the top, then the "consumers are getting duped out of their money" meme would hold. Yes, Apple's money comes from customers (duh!), but in exchange, customers get "the whole widget"--top quality hardware and software that plays nice together.

And, consumers in general (Apple customers, and everyone else) benefit, because for the last 10 years, Apple has been the rudder that has steered the ship. Apple may not have the overall best market share, but they've basically set the standard for profitable and ethical business practices.

I agree on that last sentiment. I think it applies to somewhat Google, too.
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post #145 of 145
Why all the criticism of this decision? It was both inevitable and correct. And Apple fans who truly buy Jobs' argument about "integrated" platforms, should be cheering this move on.

In any event, all their closing up is Honeycomb. Not all of Android. And the way I read it, this is to prevent some OEMs from trying to push out Honeycomb on to hardware (phones, tablets with buttons, etc.) not designed for it. Until Honeycomb can do that, it would make sense to me for Google to release it. And it's not like you can't get the Gingerbread source code, in the meanwhile.

What I found highly irritating in all this, is the conflation of "open" as a concept, with open source and an adherence by both Apple and Google to very orthodox positions. I don't buy the "we need to control the platform to control the experience" argument. There are crap apps in the App store. If Apple truly cared, it would cull them. They don't. So I can only see this as an excuse. And to me, the fight over services like Google Voice, banning political cartoons, etc. just shows, that Apple's desire for control has nothing to do with concern over quality. If it did, they could easily offer a curated App Store and let users sideload apps at their own risk from elsewhere. That's a clear choice. You can stick with Apple quality or run the risk of downloading crap from elsewhere.

On the other hand, as an Android user, Google's stance, strikes me as puzzling and annoying. The platform allows non-Market apps. That's as it should. The iPhone is one of the first (or only) smartphone platform which does not allow non-approved apps. But if that's the case, then why not curate the Android Market? There are alternatives for apps that don't make the cut. And there's also the practice, of the trial period. If that's in place, why have "lite" apps? Policies like these just don't make sense to me.

So personally, I'm on the fence. I use Android right now...simply because Apple is just a little too closed for me (and there's some features I really like...the browser, widgets, Flash (on occassion...like when certain cricket games are on...)). And I'd fully consider switching if Apple incorporated some of those features (better zooming on the browser, better notifications, widgets....all it would take to win me over). On the same token, I really do think Google needs to assert more control. And I'm glad they are doing this. As long as this stance does not evolve into a removal of user control (disallowing sideloading of apps, etc.), I don't see it as a betrayal of their desire to be more open. I'd say a moderate stance is probably more in line with what most users would like. At least for me, I dislike zealots, of any stripe.
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