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Epic game developer calls iPad 2 graphics leap "astonishing," doubts Android can compete

post #1 of 69
Thread Starter 
The blistering pace of graphics performance improvements on Apple's iPad 2 will enable a new class of handheld gaming titles, but Android devices aren't likely to get the same kind of attention due to platform fragmentation, says Epic Games's Tim Sweeney.

Sweeney, a key developer of Epic's Unreal Engine used in a series of 3D games over the past decade from the first "Unreal" in 1998 through such popular titles as "BioShock" and "Batman: Arkham Asylum," noted in an interview with Gizmodo that mobile devices are improving much faster than consoles historically have.

The 9x iPad 2 graphics leap

Sweeney described conventional game consoles as seeing "a 10-20x leap in performance every 7-8 years," compared to the 9x leap Apple claimed for the iPad 2 in just one annual refresh. Asked whether iPad 2 can really deliver a 9x improvement in graphics performance, Sweeny said, "I certainly believe 9x," although his group hasn't benchmarked the device's core chips yet.

Last year's A4 CPU used in the iPhone 4 and iPad is roughly "comparable to a single Xbox 360 core" Sweeney estimated. The new A5 used in iPad 2 holds the potential for "far, far more potential in that platform than we're exploiting today," he added.

Sweeney said iPad 2 delivers enough shader performance that "you can use the high-detail shaders we did during Gears of War." The interview noted that "more complex shaders and post-processing effects are going to remain the visual differentiators between high-end mobile devices and consoles for the time being, though we could 'see more of that with more time with the iPad 2.'"

Limitations of mobile devices

The biggest limitation for game development on mobile devices is OpenGL ES graphic drivers Sweeney said, which currently have "fairly high overhead" and are "not nearly as optimized as we'd like."

Optimizations could provide "a factor of 4 driver overhead reduction," he estimated, noting that the current software allows mobile games to look great but restricts them from rendering "a whole lot of objects" on the screen at once.

The result are games like Epic's "Infinity Blade" for iPhone and iPad, which focuses on one-to-one combat. Epic delivered a special version of the title for the new iPad 2 to take advantage of its greater graphics capacity (contrasted with the original iPad graphics below).

Another limitation is available memory, Sweeney said, although he was described as being "totally happy" with the iPad 2's 512MB of RAM, noting that "it's as much as the Xbox 360." The biggest issue with RAM is having a known amount available to work with he said.




Android hardware fragmentation a problem for high end games

Uncertainty about the hardware available across a given platform is a particular problem for higher end gaming developers. Sweeney explained, "when a consumer gets the phone and they want to play a game that uses our technology, it's got to be a consistent experience, and we can't guarantee that [on Android]. That's what held us off of Android."

Contrasted against a gaming platform where hardware aspects don't vary between models and makers, an "open" platform like Android becomes a difficult beast to target. "If you took the underlying [Sony] NGP hardware and shipped Android on it, you'd find far far less performance on Android," Sweeney said.

"Let's say you took an NGP phone and made four versions of it. Each one would give you a different amount of memory and performance based on the crap [the carriers] put on their phone," he added, alluding to the additional layers of software fragmentation that affect Android devices.

Apple's chief executive Steve Jobs described Android's software fragmentation as a growing problem for developers last fall, and a recent survey indicates that 87 percent of Android developers see fragmentation as being a problem for the platform.

For Epic to do the kinds of things they do on iOS, Sweeney said that "Google needs to be a little more evil. They need to be far more controlling." At the same time, he also said the main reason Epic has focused on Apple's iOS was because "it's really the best place to make money."

That observation underlines the the reality that despite shipping on lots of phone handsets (much as JavaME or Flash Lite did before it), Android isn't creating a viable development platform that is resulting in either web apps or native development that can rival Apple's iOS platform in smartphones, let alone other devices such as media players like iPod touch or tablets like iPad.

A report from February indicated that Apple continues to own 82.7 percent of all mobile software sales with its iOS App Store.

post #2 of 69
I agree with the guy. I've only owned my iPad2 for less than a week and I'm not really a gamer, but I've been playing more games than I thought with it. Everything is pretty smooth on the iPad2.

At the moment, I'm liking War Pinball HD. I think we'll be seeing a lot more great games coming out soon for the iPad. I want to see more big name companies start to make games and port their old catalogues over to the iPad.
post #3 of 69
I still think that a physical d-pad of some sort is needed for it to really take off.....FPS type game wise. However some people have done some very innovative touch control games. Sliced HD comes to mind...
post #4 of 69
An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second

The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.

And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.
post #5 of 69
I think Epic has benefitted pretty handsomely from Apple featuring their games, so they're probably not really unbiased. I'm not saying there's any kind of quid pro quo going on - the Epic games are clearly head and shoulders above the mass of games out there, so of course Apple featured them - but just that it would be great for them if iOS devices really did beat out Android across the board. I for one don't think people are really going to see a 9x speed boost (5-7x? Yes. 9x? No.), and I doubt the Epic folks really believe that either.

Also, I see the Tegras and the Adrenos coming down the line being quite competitive. By the 2011 holidays competing products will be as fast or even faster than the iPad 2, and probably have other buzzwords as well. Sure, it's 9 months after the iPad 2 we're talking about, and the iPad 3 will be around the corner, but I'm just saying that the hardware gulf is unlikely to persist through all release cycles.

The more important that the details of what the developer is claiming, however, is *that* the developer is claiming it. That iOS is sticky for customers is well-established - see the AI article on "very satisfied" customers in the user polls today - but this shows the tendency for iOS to be sticky for developers as well. Lots of developers have at least dabbled in Android under the idea that someday it'll get better and/or become dominant, but if iOS continues to deliver the goods for developers while Android doesn't, developer experiments with Android may start to wane.
post #6 of 69
Again, why even talk about those Android tablets when very few people are actually buying them? It doesn't matter if iPad2 has better graphics than the Xoom etc. or not, you won't find games for Android 3.0 because there's no market for it and nobody can make money if there's no market. The kind of attention these Android tablets are getting is so over the top.
post #7 of 69
All this doesn't matter. Each time Android fragmentation has been brought up, the Android and fandroid communities would raise their torches and pitchforks and scream at the top of their lungs that there was no such thing as fragmentation, the so called wannabe weekend-"developers" would spew all kinds of smoke and statistics to prove there was no problem at all, and that we Apple fans were just sipping too much of the Koolaid.

I'm sure it's just my mind playing games with me because I swear I have not heard one peep from the fandroid trolls defending their positions, especially when Google came into the fragmentation arena.

Is it possible Android really is the mess that it is???

</sarcasm>
post #8 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second

The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.

And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.

That's a valid comparison if is was the Cortex A8 that was being compared but he's not comparing the A8 to a 360 core but the Apple A4 as a whole. The A4 is more than an off the shelf Cortex A8.
post #9 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmillermcp View Post

That's a valid comparison if is was the Cortex A8 that was being compared but he's not comparing the A8 to a 360 core but the Apple A4 as a whole. The A4 is more than an off the shelf Cortex A8.

Its hard to isolate the processor because of the software that runs on top of it, but the A8 in the iPad 1 isn't hugely more powerful than any other A8 at the same speed (snapdragon for instance), looking at the early benchmarks of it. Even if Apple did manage to substantially improve the performance over a stock A8, it would not be close to the 360 core in MIPS and again the instructions per second.

And then there's memory bandwidth and latency, channel bandwidth between graphics and processor components, the storage limitations of apps, etc, all to factor in.
post #10 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

All this doesn't matter. Each time Android fragmentation has been brought up, the Android and fandroid communities would raise their torches and pitchforks and scream at the top of their lungs that there was no such thing as fragmentation, the so called wannabe weekend-"developers" would spew all kinds of smoke and statistics to prove there was no problem at all, and that we Apple fans were just sipping too much of the Koolaid.

I'm sure it's just my mind playing games with me because I swear I have not heard one peep from the fandroid trolls defending their positions, especially when Google came into the fragmentation arena.

Is it possible Android really is the mess that it is???

</sarcasm>

It's not that just the Droidtards were saying there was no fragmentation, but Google itself WAS saying that there wasn't a serious fragmentation issue on the platform. I believe they've recently changed their tune. I'm sure it would be very difficult for game developers to have to make a game run decently on literally dozens of various Android smartphones. I'm sure that most top-of-the-line Android smartphones probably have similar performance but those lower-end processor models would be trouble. It would just seem easier for a game developer to work with iOS because of the fewer models and Apple's tighter controls over the platform. That just makes sense.

Apple's platform will continue to draw the best developers and the most money, so I don't care how large a market share Android gets, Apple will continue to get the largest revenue share with the iOS platform. No other mobile platform is going to be as open and uncontrolled as Android unless Google changes the model. I think the Droidtards are screwing themselves if they want Google to just allow anything to take place on the platform.

Anyway, it's good to hear that developers like taking advantage of the A5. If Apple can continue to design its own processors specifically for their own hardware that's a great advantage to have so it can plan its products' capabilities well in advance.
post #11 of 69
I think we will see the 9x with the release of iOS 5. I think pervasive OpenCL & Grand Central Dispatch optimizations will make it happen. Here's hoping for 9x + improvement.
post #12 of 69
There is a reason Sony, Nintendo & Microsoft each sell only one console model at a time. It's the same reason Apple is cleaning up in gaming while Android is eating Apple's dust. Google requiring less fragmentation among Android phones is tantamount to demanding that Samsung, Motorola, HTC and all the others sell interchangeable, generic handsets. Good luck with that.
post #13 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second

The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.

And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.

So we should believe you versus someone who actually develops the games and knows the performance characteristics of devices intimately?
post #14 of 69
Once again, Stevo was right.

post #15 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

So we should believe you versus someone who actually develops the games and knows the performance characteristics of devices intimately?

Should we believe everything developers say? Not like they would have an interest in hyping new engines or anything, right? Or not like they've ever over-hyped a new platform?

I'm not saying take my word for it, just look at the table I posted. Three times the instructions per cycle, three times the clock speed, astronomical Million Instructions Per Second rating in comparison, faster bandwidth, faster interconnects, faster and larger caches...Come on now. Even the original AMD Athlon had a higher Instructions Per Second. This isn't a clock speed comparison, MIPS can be compared across architectures. They don't reflect all workloads, but all I'm going for here is a general sense.
post #16 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

Its hard to isolate the processor because of the software that runs on top of it, but the A8 in the iPad 1 isn't hugely more powerful than any other A8 at the same speed (snapdragon for instance), looking at the early benchmarks of it. Even if Apple did manage to substantially improve the performance over a stock A8, it would not be close to the 360 core in MIPS and again the instructions per second.

And then there's memory bandwidth and latency, channel bandwidth between graphics and processor components, the storage limitations of apps, etc, all to factor in.

You're not counting the integrated PowerVR graphics processor. That's where most of the "9x" performance improvement is supposed to come from.
post #17 of 69
Your a bit delusional, it doesn't take a Google expert to find articles where Android developers and Google acknowledge that fragmentation is a serious problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

All this doesn't matter. Each time Android fragmentation has been brought up, the Android and fandroid communities would raise their torches and pitchforks and scream at the top of their lungs that there was no such thing as fragmentation, the so called wannabe weekend-"developers" would spew all kinds of smoke and statistics to prove there was no problem at all, and that we Apple fans were just sipping too much of the Koolaid.

I'm sure it's just my mind playing games with me because I swear I have not heard one peep from the fandroid trolls defending their positions, especially when Google came into the fragmentation arena.

Is it possible Android really is the mess that it is???

</sarcasm>
post #18 of 69
I too think this comment doesn't make sense, the one from the dev where he compares cpus.
post #19 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by illimiter View Post

You're not counting the integrated PowerVR graphics processor. That's where most of the "9x" performance improvement is supposed to come from.

Ehh? Why would I count the GPU when I'm specifically talking about the CPU comparison he made? He made a per-core processor comparison. Not GPU. I'm not talking about Apple's 9x graphical performance claim.
post #20 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second

The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.

And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.

Well, given that this is the author of the Unreal Engine, I'd defer to the expert opinion over some anonymous commenter citing wikipedia stats
post #21 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

There is a reason Sony, Nintendo & Microsoft each sell only one console model at a time. It's the same reason Apple is cleaning up in gaming while Android is eating Apple's dust. Google requiring less fragmentation among Android phones is tantamount to demanding that Samsung, Motorola, HTC and all the others sell interchangeable, generic handsets. Good luck with that.

And if you compare the business model of 3DO, which attempted to basically be the "Android" of video game consoles back in the 90s, you'll have additional evidence that "open" platforms just add a bunch of issues.

Apple's "open" Mac licensing program was a similar failure, and started becoming expensive and difficult for Apple to support.
post #22 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archos View Post

Well, given that this is the author of the Unreal Engine, I'd defer to the expert opinion over some anonymous commenter citing wikipedia stats

*Shrugs*
Fair enough, but like I said its not like developers have never overhyped a new platform they are developing for before.
post #23 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post

I think Epic has benefitted pretty handsomely from Apple featuring their games, so they're probably not really unbiased. I'm not saying there's any kind of quid pro quo going on - the Epic games are clearly head and shoulders above the mass of games out there, so of course Apple featured them - but just that it would be great for them if iOS devices really did beat out Android across the board. I for one don't think people are really going to see a 9x speed boost (5-7x? Yes. 9x? No.), and I doubt the Epic folks really believe that either.

Also, I see the Tegras and the Adrenos coming down the line being quite competitive. By the 2011 holidays competing products will be as fast or even faster than the iPad 2, and probably have other buzzwords as well. Sure, it's 9 months after the iPad 2 we're talking about, and the iPad 3 will be around the corner, but I'm just saying that the hardware gulf is unlikely to persist through all release cycles.

The more important that the details of what the developer is claiming, however, is *that* the developer is claiming it. That iOS is sticky for customers is well-established - see the AI article on "very satisfied" customers in the user polls today - but this shows the tendency for iOS to be sticky for developers as well. Lots of developers have at least dabbled in Android under the idea that someday it'll get better and/or become dominant, but if iOS continues to deliver the goods for developers while Android doesn't, developer experiments with Android may start to wane.

You also have to consider that the iPad2 was thought unlikely to be able to compete with the fabulous Tegra 2 right before the iPad2 came out. Surprise!

Most likely any new chips from others will either need the iPad's performance, or at best, slide slightly ahead. But then, shortly afterwards the iPad3 will move comfortably ahead again. I'm not too worried. Apple has a big advantage in being able to customize their chips for their own hardware and OS. No one else can do that. This is a big deal, and we saw a good result for the first generation. We see an even better result with the second. Apple also has an investment in Imagination, and who knows what advantage that may bring.

In addition, with the problems of Android, it's not likely that developers will flock to it for complex games in the last three months of the iPad2 knowing the new one will be out with better performance shortly.
post #24 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

Its hard to isolate the processor because of the software that runs on top of it, but the A8 in the iPad 1 isn't hugely more powerful than any other A8 at the same speed (snapdragon for instance), looking at the early benchmarks of it. Even if Apple did manage to substantially improve the performance over a stock A8, it would not be close to the 360 core in MIPS and again the instructions per second.

And then there's memory bandwidth and latency, channel bandwidth between graphics and processor components, the storage limitations of apps, etc, all to factor in.

These developers are much more sophisticated about this than any if us here are. No offense intended towards anyone, but still, their jobs involve getting every processor cycle to function usefully. The 360 is considered to be difficult to program for, and the PS3 even more so.

Therefor, we have the matter of usable processor power. If a number of developers have been saying this for months, and they have, I would think that as a group, they know what they're talking about. These are not unknown code monkeys whose statements we can take with some question. These are the top people in their field.
post #25 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second

The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.

And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.

Your numbers are probably right, and still can be foolish to compare last generation of mobile cpu with one of the most powerful current gaming console, but has the article point out, the gap is nearing very fast.

The SoC way of combining all motherboard mains component inside a single chip enable tremendous power if carefully design. We don't know much on the actual design of the A4 and A5, we don't know how little latency the ram is while siting right on top of the CPU, same thing for the bandwidth between CPU-RAM-GPU. All of this while draining 1 watt at max power

Power for watts, the A5 is the king of the hill right now.
post #26 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post

I think Epic has benefitted pretty handsomely from Apple featuring their games, so they're probably not really unbiased. I'm not saying there's any kind of quid pro quo going on - the Epic games are clearly head and shoulders above the mass of games out there, so of course Apple featured them - but just that it would be great for them if iOS devices really did beat out Android across the board. I for one don't think people are really going to see a 9x speed boost (5-7x? Yes. 9x? No.), and I doubt the Epic folks really believe that either.

Also, I see the Tegras and the Adrenos coming down the line being quite competitive. By the 2011 holidays competing products will be as fast or even faster than the iPad 2, and probably have other buzzwords as well. Sure, it's 9 months after the iPad 2 we're talking about, and the iPad 3 will be around the corner, but I'm just saying that the hardware gulf is unlikely to persist through all release cycles.

The more important that the details of what the developer is claiming, however, is *that* the developer is claiming it. That iOS is sticky for customers is well-established - see the AI article on "very satisfied" customers in the user polls today - but this shows the tendency for iOS to be sticky for developers as well. Lots of developers have at least dabbled in Android under the idea that someday it'll get better and/or become dominant, but if iOS continues to deliver the goods for developers while Android doesn't, developer experiments with Android may start to wane.

I have great doubt about Tegra cpu. Why they never been any device open for developer with the first Tegra? For sure there is a lot of "believer" for Tegra, but never they never proof them self with real product. While I never seen any direct benchmark for the Tegra 2 and A5 GPU, and if you will find there is very very little info on how much power the Tegra 2 can drain, but I'm betting on the PowerVR tiles technology being 4x-10x more power efficient than Nvidia, this would explain why we never seen any successful phone with Tegra cpu within.
post #27 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

I have great doubt about Tegra cpu. Why they never been any device open for developer with the first Tegra? For sure there is a lot of "believer" for Tegra, but never they never proof them self with real product. While I never seen any direct benchmark for the Tegra 2 and A5 GPU, and if you will find there is very very little info on how much power the Tegra 2 can drain, but I'm betting on the PowerVR tiles technology being 4x-10x more power efficient than Nvidia, this would explain why we never seen any successful phone with Tegra cpu within.

What? Practically all new Android tablets (and most handets) are using the tegra2 chipset. The reason you haven't seen benchmarks for it yet (at least decent ones) is because the benchmarking apps weren't updated to take advantage of Tegra2 OR Honeycomb/Gingerbread.

For battery life, the Xoom gets approximately the same battery life as an iPAD (1 or 2) does if you're comparing similar content so power drain doesn't seem to be an issue.

There are dozens of articles out there about Tegra2, about battery information, rendering, etc.. Not sure how you're saying there is very little information out there for it.
post #28 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second

The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.

And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.


All I can say is, in my field, so many times I saw people interpreted raw data obtained from internet wrongly. (they usually don't understand the term discussed or they just failed to count lots of variables in the real world)
post #29 of 69
Speaking as someone who is a X360, PS3 and iOS developer, I can say that Sweeney is right. The amount of actual horsepower you can get out of a mobile chip now like the A5 is pretty staggering.
post #30 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I agree with the guy. I've only owned my iPad2 for less than a week and I'm not really a gamer, but I've been playing more games than I thought with it. Everything is pretty smooth on the iPad2.

Not everything. Garageband (I know, I know, it's not a game, but had to vent) crashes regularly. Useless piece of eye-candy.

Wish I could get my $4.99 back.
post #31 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

What? Practically all new Android tablets (and most handets) are using the tegra2 chipset. The reason you haven't seen benchmarks for it yet (at least decent ones) is because the benchmarking apps weren't updated to take advantage of Tegra2 OR Honeycomb/Gingerbread.

For battery life, the Xoom gets approximately the same battery life as an iPAD (1 or 2) does if you're comparing similar content so power drain doesn't seem to be an issue.

There are dozens of articles out there about Tegra2, about battery information, rendering, etc.. Not sure how you're saying there is very little information out there for it.

Beside the sparse Xoom, as is today there is a lot announcement but nothing on the market... There is a lot of talk but very little fact and real product that proving Tegra's power. Right now it's as good as the Samsung hummingbird.

The battery killer on the iPad is it IPS screen that need a lot more backlighting because of being less translucent than el cheapo TN screen you will find on the Xoom and any other lesser tablets. This is where the Xoom is gaining back is battery life, beside I have'nt seen number on worst case scenario (hard online gaming) battery life for the Xoom, I can tell for the iPad you've always got a least 6 h.
post #32 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Not everything. Garageband (I know, I know, it's not a game, but had to vent) crashes regularly. Useless piece of eye-candy.

Wish I could get my $4.99 back.

I have Garageband also. I haven't gotten a chance to play with it a whole lot, but I haven't had any crashes yet, though I don't doubt that you are. If there are some bugs in it, then surely Apple will be releasing a new update eventually.

As a quick musical sketchpad, I find it to be alright. And I like the fact that you can begin an idea on the iPad and then move the file over to a real Mac for more serious business.
post #33 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Beside the sparse Xoom, as is today there is a lot announcement but nothing on the market... There is a lot of talk but very little fact and real product that proving Tegra's power. Right now it's as good as the Samsung hummingbird.

The battery killer on the iPad is it IPS screen that need a lot more backlighting because of being less translucent than el cheapo TN screen you will find on the Xoom and any other lesser tablets. This is where the Xoom is gaining back is battery life, beside I have'nt seen number on worst case scenario (hard online gaming) battery life for the Xoom, I can tell for the iPad you've always got a least 6 h.

THe LG optimus has released devices with Tegra2. The Atrix is a tegra2 device (battery issues here related to BLUR, not processor). The Bionic should be out within a month, as will other devices.

There is a LOT of stuff out there demonstrating the capabilities of Tegra devices, both in battery life and in graphics processing. Again, I don't know where you've been reading otherwise.

If you're looking for a closer comparison to the Ipad, you'll have to wait until the Asus Transformer, because that is also a IPS display device (though higher pixel density)

But again, I'm not seeing what you're trying to say here. On one hand you're saying that there's next to no information out there on what a Tegra device can do, and on the other you're dismissing Tegra as being inferior. You cannot hold both positions.
post #34 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

*Shrugs*
Fair enough, but like I said its not like developers have never overhyped a new platform they are developing for before.

Epic is not some small iOS developer. The company has games on every major platform, from PC to the big consoles. If something has the potential to make money, they'll be doing it. As the guy points out, iOS is where the money is. They're not going to embarrass themselves talking crap about another platform just to get in Apple's good graces. The suggestion that you make is simply embarrassing for you.

Do you also think everyone is prejudiced against Linux, or that nobody ports games for it because there's simply no business model backing it up?

This interview really indicates that the whole "Android won the smartphone and will take over tablets real soon now" meme is completely delusional. Android has been selling more handsets for a while now, and the software market hasn't made any parallel progress. It's still stuck in Linux-land.

This isn't a situation that's likely to change among smartphones, where there is already an Android lead. It's sure not going to happen in Tablets, where the iPad has crushed any hope that there will be some mass defection to alternative platforms with no apps, no standards, no support for web standards, no cost advantages, and no support for iTunes.
post #35 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

THe LG optimus has released devices with Tegra2. The Atrix is a tegra2 device (battery issues here related to BLUR, not processor). The Bionic should be out within a month, as will other devices.

There is a LOT of stuff out there demonstrating the capabilities of Tegra devices, both in battery life and in graphics processing. Again, I don't know where you've been reading otherwise.

If you're looking for a closer comparison to the Ipad, you'll have to wait until the Asus Transformer, because that is also a IPS display device (though higher pixel density)

But again, I'm not seeing what you're trying to say here. On one hand you're saying that there's next to no information out there on what a Tegra device can do, and on the other you're dismissing Tegra as being inferior. You cannot hold both positions.

What I was saying is, base on the fact that all bench on Tegra 2 power efficiency is base on the whole device and no real TDW numbers, the Tegra 2 could be a fat hog (remember the Pentium 4) of the mobile space.

I'm open to argue, but I think Apple with his A5 got the best mobile CPU out there.

P.S. I will not hold my breath for seeing with my own eyes the Transformer (lame name).
post #36 of 69
I knew it.
post #37 of 69
Menno, I'd be interested in reading the sites where you're seeing the Xoom get 'approximately' the same battery life as the iPad - the tests I've seen have indicated the iPad 2 gets 30-50% more life out of a battery (cnet, Mossberg, Consumer Reports). I'm also not aware of any real caveats regarding the Anandtech speed tests that showed the iPad 2 being much faster on most graphics tasks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

What? Practically all new Android tablets (and most handets) are using the tegra2 chipset. The reason you haven't seen benchmarks for it yet (at least decent ones) is because the benchmarking apps weren't updated to take advantage of Tegra2 OR Honeycomb/Gingerbread.

For battery life, the Xoom gets approximately the same battery life as an iPAD (1 or 2) does if you're comparing similar content so power drain doesn't seem to be an issue.

There are dozens of articles out there about Tegra2, about battery information, rendering, etc.. Not sure how you're saying there is very little information out there for it.
post #38 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Not everything. Garageband (I know, I know, it's not a game, but had to vent) crashes regularly. Useless piece of eye-candy.

Wish I could get my $4.99 back.

Take 2 minutes to report it. You'll get your money back within a couple days.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #39 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post

Menno, I'd be interested in reading the sites where you're seeing the Xoom get 'approximately' the same battery life as the iPad - the tests I've seen have indicated the iPad 2 gets 30-50% more life out of a battery (cnet, Mossberg, Consumer Reports). I'm also not aware of any real caveats regarding the Anandtech speed tests that showed the iPad 2 being much faster on most graphics tasks.



Forbes says both xoom and ipad get 10 hours or so, depending on usage.
http://blogs.forbes.com/marcwebertob...business-tool/

Scobleizer:
http://scobleizer.com/2011/02/23/an-...motorola-xoom/

Engadget Review"
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/23/m...a-xoom-review/
(within an hour of ipad)

anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4191/m...let-arrives/14

There are others, but those are the 4 I remembered off the top of my head.

I refuse to pay Consumer Reports Paywall, so I don't know what methodology they used. I do know with Cnet for their tests they used a 720p version of a movie with a third party movie player for the Xoom, and they used a iPad Optimized version of the movie for the ipad.. pretty sure that will have significant weight when it comes to battery life. It's been awhile since I read mossbergs review, but I'm sure I saw that other reviewers commented on his review saying his battery results were not what they were seeing.
post #40 of 69


Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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