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The Rich Are Superheroes, it's that simple! - Page 4

post #121 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post



Nice try. I haven't said any such thing. I merely suggested caution when using statistics that appear to be reporting the same things (because they use the same words) but may in fact be reporting different things.

This is not at all the same as what you just said.

The statistics may be valid and useful but may present problems in making direct comparisons.

\

I've travelled around Europe a fair bit and pretty widely in the UK. The interesting thing is that the UK has a high poverty rate, higher than the US by quite a margin I think, but those people live in communities that are mostly well kept and tidy. In the US, especially Baltimore and D.C there's a completely different feel to those neighbourhoods. Houses are often boarded up and burnt out, huge piles of possessions litter the streets.

One time my Mum was over to visit, driving home the road was blocked off near where I lived. Found out later that three people at my local gas station were killed in a robbery. That could very nearly have been us as two of them were just filling up.

Anyway, the level of decay is truly mind boggling, like something out of a weird horror movie.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #122 of 135
Thread Starter 
iSlaves-

"When the allegations were put to Foxconn by the Observer, manager Louis Woo confirmed that workers sometimes worked more than the statutory overtime limit to meet demand from western consumers, but claimed that all the extra hours were voluntary. Workers claim that, if they turn down excessive demands for overtime, they will be forced to rely on their basic wage: workers in Chengdu are paid only 1,350 yuan (£125) a month for a basic 48-hour week, equivalent to about 65p an hour."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ted-inhumanely
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #123 of 135
Thread Starter 
"The dormitories where she and most others live offer little comfort. Up to 24 people can share one room and the rules are strict, even prohibiting the use of a kettle or a hairdryer. One worker who did was forced to write a confession letter: "It is my fault. I will never blow my hair inside my room. I have done something wrong. I will never do it again."

In Shenzhen and Chengdu a joint Foxconn workforce of 500,000 is providing the labour that, in the first quarter of 2011, contributed to Apple Inc net profit of $6bn (£3.6bn)

Workers who step out of line can be publicly humiliated, it is alleged. "When a worker makes a mistake, when he talks or laughs loudly, he will be humiliated," a production worker said. "Sometimes you have to stand like a soldier in front of everybody. It is a loss of dignity and means an extra pressure for the worker."

A typical working day in Chengdu means getting up at 6.30am, catching a bus for the 30-minute ride to the factory at 7.10am and attending a compulsory but unpaid assembly at 8.10am, before starting work at 8.30am. Shifts, including overtime and breaks, end at 8.30pm.

"The work is so monotonous and they are so young. When they start this job they have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. They don't have a social life any more. Their life is just working in a factory and that is it."

"The work is so monotonous and they are so young. When they start this job they have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. They don't have a social life any more. Their life is just working in a factory and that is it."

"The work is so monotonous and they are so young. When they start this job they have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. They don't have a social life any more. Their life is just working in a factory and that is it."

"The work is so monotonous and they are so young. When they start this job they have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. They don't have a social life any more. Their life is just working in a factory and that is it."

For the first few days at the factory, Li said that she and her colleagues most seem to be aged 18-20 were put through military drills by former soldiers: "They made us do marching and standing still and walking. It was very boring."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...es-humiliation
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #124 of 135
Lemme get this right? In the booming economy of China they can't find a job somewhere else and are therefore "slaves"
post #125 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Lemme get this right? In the booming economy of China they can't find a job somewhere else and are therefore "slaves"

"verb /slāv/ 
slaved, past participle; slaved, past tense; slaves, 3rd person singular present; slaving, present participle

Work excessively hard
- after slaving away for fourteen years, all he gets is two thousand"
~ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...Q&ved=0CBoQkQ4

There are over 400,000 workers at this factory. We call it, iWork4 pittance.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #126 of 135
It's interesting how many people look at the developing world (e.g., China) and are only able to look at from a single rather narrow point of view...from the point of view of how we in the developed world live now.

There seems to be a profound lack of perspective about how, in a lot of ways, the work experience (e.g., in factories, etc.) that many of those in the developing world are having, while quite beneath what we expect and experience in our developed world, is often a significant improvement over their previous situation or their next best alternative.

There is also appears to be an ignorance of history and the pathway of economic development that occurred for the (now) developed world...and how the (currently) developing world is going through the same path...only faster and better in a lot of ways compared to that past history.

Finally, they assume the current state is a permanent one rather than a transitional one both for the nation as a whole as well as many of the individuals and families caught up in it.

This is a mistake.

Now, to be clear, I'm not claiming that the working conditions in the developing world are a bed of roses. But one needs to look at the broader context of time and alternatives. We need to acknowledge the reality of the, often, terrible alternative options many of these folks have...right now. But they are starting to grow out of and evolve beyond this...and much more quickly than in previous epics of history. If places like China would accelerate their economic liberalization it would probably happen even faster.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #127 of 135
Thread Starter 
Ooops, posted in wrong thread.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #128 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It's interesting how many people look at the developing world (e.g., China) and are only able to look at from a single rather narrow point of view...from the point of view of how we in the developed world live now.

There seems to be a profound lack of perspective about how, in a lot of ways, the work experience (e.g., in factories, etc.) that many of those in the developing world are having, while quite beneath what we expect and experience in our developed world, is often a significant improvement over their previous situation or their next best alternative.

There is also appears to be an ignorance of history and the pathway of economic development that occurred for the (now) developed world...and how the (currently) developing world is going through the same path...only faster and better in a lot of ways compared to that past history.

Finally, they assume the current state is a permanent one rather than a transitional one both for the nation as a whole as well as many of the individuals and families caught up in it.

This is a mistake.

Now, to be clear, I'm not claiming that the working conditions in the developing world are a bed of roses. But one need to look at the broader context of time and alternatives. We need to acknowledge the reality of the, often, terrible alternative options many of these folks have...right now. But they are starting to grow out of and evolve beyond this...and much more quickly than in previous epics of history. If places like China would accelerate their economic liberalization it would probably happen even faster.


You're much more forgiving than I am of the greed of these people. It's pure greed, it's the workers being exploited in battery farms. Human battery farms whilst the top brass pay themselves massive bonuses and whilst Steve Jobs tries to not pay taxes (we're talking tens of billions of taxable income) from profits overseas. It's a scam and people in the US and around the world are being scammed. There's an iPrison for all this robbery going on and that's where they belong.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #129 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You're much more forgiving than I am of the greed of these people.

It's not an issue of forgiving or not. It's an issue of understanding the reality of economic development.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's pure greed

How do you know this? How do you know what motivates an individual you don't even know?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

it's the workers being exploited...

While I don't deny that there are people being genuinely exploited all over the world, and it may even be so in this case, there are other factors at play here. The first question is whether or not they are genuinely being forced (slavery) or simply "forced" in the "enlightened" high-minded, arrogant developed world sense of that word which simply means "not having the choices I have."

Second, these accusations and claims have been made before. Apple has investigated and made suppliers adjust. I suspect the same will happen this time.

It's never right to exploit someone. It is never right to enslave someone. And, again, I say these working conditions look undesirable to you and me. People absolutely should be treated with dignity. But we always need to be very careful in analyzing these situations to ensure we have the facts correct, that things are not being misrepresented, to understand the overall context...including the alternatives which may actually be worse. What I'm saying is that this might be a situation that sucks but it might suck less than the alternative which could be unemployment or worse. These are complicated and messy things. Sometimes there are not a lot of easy, feel good answers.

In the end we consumers drive this. You bought an iPhone. Maybe even an iPod. Where is your responsibility in all of this? Furthermore, if you and I (and everyone else) doesn't buy the iPhones, iPods and iPads...What happens next? What will happen to these folks then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

whilst Steve Jobs tries to not pay taxes (we're talking tens of billions of taxable income) from profits overseas.

I don't know the details of Steve Jobs' tax situation but, having followed the company fairly closely for a while, I'm quite certain that Steve Jobs has not made billions of dollars in income.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #130 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It's not an issue of forgiving or not. It's an issue of understanding the reality of economic development.




How do you know this? How do you know what motivates an individual you don't even know?




While I don't deny that there are people being genuinely exploited all over the world, and it may even be so in this case, there are other factors at play here. The first question is whether or not they are genuinely being forced (slavery) or simply "forced" in the "enlightened" high-minded, arrogant developed world sense of that word which simply means "not having the choices I have."

Second, these accusations and claims have been made before. Apple has investigated and made suppliers adjust. I suspect the same will happen this time.

It's never right to exploit someone. It is never right to enslave someone. And, again, I say these working conditions look undesirable to you and me. People absolutely should be treated with dignity. But we always need to be very careful in analyzing these situations to ensure we have the facts correct, that things are not being misrepresented, to understand the overall context...including the alternatives which may actually be worse. What I'm saying is that this might be a situation that sucks but it might suck less than the alternative which could be unemployment or worse. These are complicated and messy things. Sometimes there are not a lot of easy, feel good answers.

In the end we consumers drive this. You bought an iPhone. Maybe even an iPod. Where is your responsibility in all of this? Furthermore, if you and I (and everyone else) doesn't buy the iPhones, iPods and iPads...What happens next? What will happen to these folks then?




I don't know the details of Steve Jobs' tax situation but, having followed the company fairly closely for a while, I'm quite certain that Steve Jobs has not made billions of dollars in income.

From AppleInsider-


"Apple lobbies for offshore tax holiday to bring cash to US


Apple has joined a consortium of companies including Cisco, Duke Energy, Oracle, and Pfizer to lobby the US government for a tax holiday that would allow corporations to bring home an estimated $1 trillion now parked in overseas accounts.

Without the tax holiday, the companies say they won't spend their overseas earnings in the US, given that they face a 35% tax on their profits generated outside the country. Their plan asks for a temporary break that would enable them repatriate their foreign cash by paying only 5% in taxes, during a one year period.

In return, the companies say they could then justify investing in research, hiring and other domestic spending that would boost the economy, according to a report by Fortune.

What to do with Apple's $60,000,000,000?

Apple currently has cash holdings of $59.7 billion, but it earns more than 60 percent of its revenues outside the US.

In the company's Q1 2011 earnings conference call last month, Apple's chief financial officer Peter Oppenheimer stated that Apple's "tax rate for the quarter was 24.6%, below our guidance of 25.5% due to the one-time benefit of the retroactive extension of the R&D tax credit from January 1, 2010. We expect our tax rate for the remaining quarters of fiscal '11 to be about 25.5%."

Apple hasn't given any indication of what exactly it might do with its vast cash reserves were the US to allow it to bring more of that money into the country with a tax break incentive. Some investors and analysts have pleaded with the company to distribute its holdings to shareholders in the form of dividends.

Apple's chief executive Steve Jobs has noted at previous shareholder meetings that such a move would be a shortsighted use of the company's buying power, and would remove a central pillar holding up the company's valuation. By holding onto the cash, Apple can be prepared to jump on new opportunities as they arise.

This all happened before

The report noted that in a previous tax holiday, granted in 2004, companies had similarly argued that repatriating foreign funds at discounted tax rates would enable them to boost the economy through direct domestic investment.

However, even though the Treasury Department attempted to write rules at the time to ensure the money would be invested locally, most of the cash (60 to 92 percent, according to one study cited in the report) was simply returned to shareholders in the form of stock buybacks and dividends.

"A tax holiday would bring a substantial amount of cash back to the United States and paying that out to shareholders is good for the economy," said the study's co-author Kristin Forbes, who Forbes noted is an economics professor at MIT's Sloan School of Management and was a member of President George W. Bush's council of economic advisers. "But if you're a politician claiming this will create a lot of jobs or new investment, it isn't supported by the data."

Private stimulus package getting hard to ignore

An attempt to replay the 2004 tax break in 2009, as part of President Obama's American Recovery and Reinvestment Act stimulus plan, was supported by a bipartisan group of senators led by California Democrat Barbara Boxer and Nevada Republican John Ensign, but it failed to get more than 42 votes.

At the time, opposition to the plan came from senators who were upset by how, as Boxer acknowledged in the report, companies had previously "abused the spirit of the requirements on how the money needed to be spent" under the previous tax holiday.

The "privately financed stimulus" plan is being looked at skeptically by both rural Democrats and by Tea Party-affiliated Republicans who see the measure as a handout to big corporations, while the new influx of relatively moderate Republicans in the House are likely to be more amicable. President Obama has shown little enthusiasm for the corporate tax holiday in the past, but is meeting with tech industry CEOs on a trip to Silicon Valley tomorrow in what the report referred to as "scouting for opportunities to burnish his relationship with big business."

At the same time, the Treasury is stepping up efforts to find individuals with hidden reserves in offshore accounts, offering amnesty programs that require paying a 5 to 25% penalty on top of regular back taxes and interest on any money that is reported to the government, with the threat that money that isn't voluntarily disclosed will be hit with even steeper penalties and the potential for criminal prosecution."
~ http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=118726
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #131 of 135
Oh, so you weren't talking about Steve Jobs, you were talking about Apple, Inc.

Second...good for them. They should lobby for this. They want to bring money back into the US to invest it in expanding their company, creating new products, jobs, technologies, etc. But they know that if they do it right now...a huge chunk of it will get stolen. So they are lobbying the mugger to keep some of the money in their wallet.

If this doesn't happen, then these companies will continue to keep that money in other countries and invest it there. Good for them, bad for the US.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #132 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh, so you weren't talking about Steve Jobs, you were talking about Apple, Inc.

Second...good for them. They should lobby for this. They want to bring money back into the US to invest it in expanding their company, creating new products, jobs, technologies, etc. But they know that if they do it right now...a huge chunk of it will get stolen. So they are lobbying the mugger to keep some of the money in their wallet.

If this doesn't happen, then these companies will continue to keep that money in other countries and invest it there. Good for them, bad for the US.


Sammi started a great thread recently about how these huge corporations are often paying very little or no taxes and even getting money back. Over 90% of the stimulus money that went to businesses went directly to the biggest corporations. They rape the planet and it's people and often do everything they can to not pay taxes. It's fucked up, but I guess you just can't see that...time to cut spending for the 40% (***** that's******123,200,000*********) of Americans who own ********0.3%*********of Americas wealth.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #133 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sammi started a great thread recently about how these huge corporations are often paying very little or no taxes and even getting money back. Over 90% of the stimulus money went directly to the biggest corporations.

Oh? You mean that the Obama $800B spending bill was...well...more corporate welfare? Color me shocked! I just can't believe this. This is astonishing. Are you as surprised by this as I am?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They rape the planet and it's people...

Enough with your ludicrous hyperbole. It makes you look foolish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

and often do everything they can to not pay taxes.

Yes they do. And I would argue they actually have a legal fiduciary responsibility to do so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's fucked up, but I guess you just can't see that...time to cut spending for the 40% (***** that's******123,200,000*********) of Americans who own ********0.3%*********of Americas* wealth.

I think it's time to cut spending. Period. Across the board. Everyone. Get the federal government back to its constitutional limits and you'd reduce spending by about 90% and taxes could go down. Income taxes could be eliminated and the economy could start growing like gangbusters!

But I guess you just can't see that.

*There's no such thing as "America's wealth." Wealth is owned by individuals...not the country. That's just another socialist delusion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #134 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh? You mean that the Obama $800B spending bill was...well...more corporate welfare? Color me shocked! I just can't believe this. This is astonishing. Are you as surprised by this as I am?




Enough with your ludicrous hyperbole. It makes you look foolish.




Yes they do. And I would argue they actually have a legal fiduciary responsibility to do so.




I think it's time to cut spending. Period. Across the board. Everyone. Get the federal government back to its constitutional limits and you'd reduce spending by about 90% and taxes could go down. Income taxes could be eliminated and the economy could start growing like gangbusters!

But I guess you just can't see that.

*There's no such thing as "America's wealth." Wealth is owned by individuals...not the country. That's just another socialist delusion.

All that would happen is an even greater number of people would become very poor or very rich. Most of the middle would fall, not rise, I would think. And God, who'd want to live in a place that's even more extreme than America already is. It's a nightmare already. But outside of funding education, welfare, healthcare etc there could and I think should be less tax expenditure.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #135 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

All that would happen is an even greater number of people would become very poor or very rich. Most of the middle would fall, not rise, I would think.

These are possible outcomes, but they are unlikely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

And God, who'd want to live in a place that's even more extreme than America already is.

This is happening right now...but not for the reasons you think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's a nightmare already.

Speaking of extreme. Well, things are getting worse in the US. But the reasons they're getting worse is because of the massive expansion of the federal government...it massive deficits, debt, its wars, its corporate and personal welfare...its continued control over the lives of its people...and on it goes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But outside of funding education, welfare, healthcare etc there could and I think should be less tax expenditure.

All of these things (and more) could be provided privately...and much more effectively, affordably, with more options and much higher quality.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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