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The Rich Are Superheroes, it's that simple! - Page 2

post #41 of 135
4/11/11 at 7:50am
Some people are too stupid to see that without a minimum wage, people with jobs will be living in poverty. Look at China.

Some people are too stupid to see that all the wealth creation in the world doesn't help the poor when trickle down economic theory doesn't work.

Go ahead. Show me all the countries where your theories have been a success, and I'll show you mine.
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post #42 of 135
4/11/11 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Well you know it's just not fair and someone outta do somethin'. And by that I mean suspend the constitution, confiscate private property, and socially engineer a workers' utopia.

Bound to work. It just hasn't been done right before!
To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #43 of 135
4/11/11 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Some people are too stupid to see that without a minimum wage, people with jobs will be living in poverty. Look at China.

You appear to think by mandating a minimum wage, that all of the people who were previously making less than the mandated minimum wage will have their wages increased.

Is that what you think? Why do you think this?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #44 of 135
4/11/11 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Some people are too stupid to see that without a minimum wage, people with jobs will be living in poverty. Look at China.

Some people are too stupid to see that all the wealth creation in the world doesn't help the poor when trickle down economic theory doesn't work.

Go ahead. Show me all the countries where your theories have been a success, and I'll show you mine.

Some people are too stupid to that with unemployment some people are without jobs and liver in poverty. Look at youth unemployment in this country.

Other are too stupid to see that if the wealthy don't invest in new companies and growth it wont matter what the minimum wage will be because there wont be any business to pay it.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #45 of 135
4/11/11 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
So what do you want to cut in welfare, all of it?

Just how much can you take from the poor, before there is more malnutrition and suffering?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #46 of 135
4/11/11 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So what do you want to cut in welfare, all of it?

I would cut most of it. Maybe not 100%, but most. What's left would be pushed down to states and local governments and eliminate all federal welfare.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 135
4/11/11 at 2:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I would cut most of it. Maybe not 100%, but most. What's left would be pushed down to states and local governments and eliminate all federal welfare.


So what effect do you think that would have on people who no longer get the money?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #48 of 135
4/11/11 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So what effect do you think that would have on people who no longer get the money?

Well let's get one of your assumptions out in the open, shall we?

You make the assumption that the people who truly need help would not be cared for at all if not "cared for" by government welfare. There are (and would continue to be) plenty of private charitable options for those who are truly in need. These options would likely increase as Americans, some of the most charitable and generous people on the planet, would have additional money in their pockets after taxes are cut corresponding to welfare spending cuts.

Now, onto the question. It depends. I would need to know the specifics of the individual people who are currently receiving government welfare and, under this approach, would not be. The Poor are not some large, aggregate, abstract, vague thing. It is a collection of individual human beings each with different situations and circumstances. Furthermore, poverty is much more complicated and multi-faceted than many assume.

If you have someone specific in mind that would help move the discussion beyond the vague and abstract and hypothetical, that might be interesting.

P.S. And since government welfare, by and large, has been a terrible failure, it seems its about time to try something different.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #49 of 135
4/11/11 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Some people are too stupid to that with unemployment some people are without jobs and liver in poverty. Look at youth unemployment in this country.

Poverty is poverty. Poverty with jobs is just as bad if not worse than poverty without jobs.
Quote:
Other are too stupid to see that if the wealthy don't invest in new companies and growth it wont matter what the minimum wage will be because there wont be any business to pay it.

All fine and dandy except for the fact that when you give business and the wealthy more money they still don't invest in jobs creation anyway! Why not link the money on condition of jobs creation and retention? Put your theory where your mouth is.
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post #50 of 135
4/11/11 at 4:41pm
There's absolutely no evidence behind the claim that government welfare has failed. None. There is no way you could possibly know how things would have been without it. On the contrary, all the places in the world where little or no poverty exists are in such a situation because of government welfare. So please, stop with the lying.
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post #51 of 135
4/11/11 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Some people are too stupid to see that without a minimum wage, people with jobs will be living in poverty. Look at China.

You appear to think by mandating a minimum wage, that all of the people who were previously making less than the mandated minimum wage will have their wages increased.

Is that what you think? Why do you think this?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #52 of 135
4/11/11 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There's absolutely no evidence behind the claim that government welfare has failed. None. There is no way you could possibly know how things would have been without it. On the contrary, all the places in the world where little or no poverty exists are in such a situation because of government welfare. So please, stop with the lying.

Well the fact that the poverty rate has not moved since the implementation of the so-called "war on poverty" (e.g., "The Great Society", et al) at least in the US is a pretty good start.

If you get a chance you might want to check out this video series: "Effective Stewardship" and, specifically, the one on Loving our Neighbor. Very interesting and enlightening. You might also find the book "The Tragedy of American Compassion" interesting and enlightening.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #53 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well let's get one of your assumptions out in the open, shall we?

You make the assumption that the people who truly need help would not be cared for at all if not "cared for" by government welfare. There are (and would continue to be) plenty of private charitable options for those who are truly in need. These options would likely increase as Americans, some of the most charitable and generous people on the planet, would have additional money in their pockets after taxes are cut corresponding to welfare spending cuts.

Now, onto the question. It depends. I would need to know the specifics of the individual people who are currently receiving government welfare and, under this approach, would not be. The Poor are not some large, aggregate, abstract, vague thing. It is a collection of individual human beings each with different situations and circumstances. Furthermore, poverty is much more complicated and multi-faceted than many assume.

If you have someone specific in mind that would help move the discussion beyond the vague and abstract and hypothetical, that might be interesting.

P.S. And since government welfare, by and large, has been a terrible failure, it seems its about time to try something different.

OK, lets take the guy holding the plastic food tray- http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...w=1111&bih=568 - what happens if he gets out of jail and has no money, no housing and no money for any medical care or food, clothes etc? Does he steal?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #54 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

OK, lets take the guy holding the plastic food tray- http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...w=1111&bih=568 - what happens if he gets out of jail and has no money, no housing and no money for any medical care or food, clothes etc? Does he steal?

I don't know. Tell me about him. Does he have any family or friends? Does he have a local church that will help him? Does he have any skills that will enable him to get a job to get started? Tell me about him.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #55 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You appear to think by mandating a minimum wage, that all of the people who were previously making less than the mandated minimum wage will have their wages increased.

Is that what you think? Why do you think this?

No. That's not what I think, at all. Why do you always deal in absolutes?
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post #56 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No. That's not what I think, at all.

OK. Tell me what you think then. On the subject of the minimum wage you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton

Some people are too stupid to see that without a minimum wage, people with jobs will be living in poverty. Look at China.

Will you elaborate on what you mean by this statement?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #57 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't know. Tell me about him. Does he have any family or friends? Does he have a local church that will help him? Does he have any skills that will enable him to get a job to get started? Tell me about him.

You tell me. What percentage of desperately poor people have family members and friends who are not also desperately poor? What percentage of desperately poor people haven't already tried putting their faith in God, and come to the conclusion that God isn't going to help? What percentage of desperately poor people aren't mentally or psychologically incapable of gainful employment?

You seem to believe that that number is a lot different than reality.
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post #58 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't know. Tell me about him. Does he have any family or friends? Does he have a local church that will help him? Does he have any skills that will enable him to get a job to get started? Tell me about him.

He's a hardcore atheist and he has no real friends and his father abused him and killed his mother, (he's out of jail now) but PPP (plastic plate prisoner) hates him. He's skilled at selling and taking drugs and selling stolen goods. He dropped out of school at 16 with no qualifications and he's classed as a felon.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #59 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. Tell me what you think then. On the subject of the minimum wage you said:



Will you elaborate on what you mean by this statement?

Is a dollar a day going to help someone get out of poverty?

Let's turn this around.

You seem to think that none of the people barely getting by on minimum wage right now would have their pay cut if there weren't any minimum wage.
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post #60 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You tell me. What percentage of desperately poor people have family members and friends who are not also desperately poor? What percentage of desperately poor people haven't already tried putting their faith in God, and come to the conclusion that God isn't going to help? What percentage of desperately poor people aren't mentally or psychologically incapable of gainful employment?

You seem to believe that that number is a lot different than reality.

Well, I'm trying to deal in specifics about an individual while you appear to want to deal in generalities and abstractions and statistics about some vaguely defined and abstract group.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #61 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

He's a hardcore atheist and he has no real friends and his father abused him and killed his mother, (he's out of jail now) but PPP (plastic plate prisoner) hates him. He's skilled at selling and taking drugs and selling stolen goods. He dropped out of school at 16 with no qualifications and he's classed as a felon.

Is this really true about the individual in the picture or are you fabricating a hypothetical situation?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #62 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is a dollar a day going to help someone get out of poverty?

You appear to be side-stepping. What do you mean by the statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton

Some people are too stupid to see that without a minimum wage, people with jobs will be living in poverty. Look at China.

I'm trying to understand your position, as precisely as I can, on the minimum wage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You seem to think that none of the people barely getting by on minimum wage right now would have their pay cut if there weren't any minimum wage.

I don't assume that at all.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #63 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, I'm trying to deal in specifics about an individual while you appear to want to deal in generalities and abstractions and statistics about some vaguely defined and abstract group.

Is every poor person who needs help going to give you or your charity their "specifics"!? How naive.
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post #64 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is every poor person who needs help going to give you or your charity their "specifics"!? How naive.

No. They probably aren't. But if we are going to do something to genuinely help a person rather than just make ourselves feel like we helped them by merely throwing some money at them (which could actually hurt them) then we need to know more about them don't we?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #65 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Is this really true about the individual in the picture or are you fabricating a hypothetical situation?

Hypothetical, but surely you have some idea what options he'd have. There are stories out there of real lives if you don't.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #66 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You appear to be side-stepping. What do you mean by the statement:

Not at all. I'm stating very clearly that without a minimum wage, some people will be employed for a dollar a day. It happens everywhere else in the world where there's no minimum wage.
Quote:
I'm trying to understand your position, as precisely as I can, on the minimum wage.

Then stop being daft. Without a minimum wage, the majority of the people earning minimum wage will have their pay cut. You'll deny it, but it's true. You'll say I don't have any proof, but it's obvious. Companies won't all of the sudden pay their executives less so that they can hire more workforce above the poverty level. For each member of the unemployed who gets a dollar a day job, someone earning minimum wage will get a dollar a day less. And there still will be some unemployed, because it's simply a fact that some people are unemployable.

Again. Look at China. In areas without a minimum wage (there are places in China with a minimum wage), 99% of the people live in poverty.
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post #67 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Hypothetical, but surely you have some idea what options he'd have. There are stories out there of real lives if you don't.

Let's deal with reality rather than hypotheticals. Hypotheticals have a nasty habit of stacking the deck in a way that is often unrealistic and biased.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #68 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No. They probably aren't. But if we are going to do something to genuinely help a person rather than just make ourselves feel like we helped them by merely throwing some money at them (which could actually hurt them) then we need to know more about them don't we?

And you do know that finding more about people -- censuses, means tests, social worker visits, costs a LOT of money, do you not!?
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post #69 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not at all. I'm stating very clearly that without a minimum wage, some people will be employed for a dollar a day. It happens everywhere else in the world where there's no minimum wage.

Yes there would be. What wage would those people be employed at with a minimum wage law?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Without a minimum wage, the majority of the people earning minimum wage will have their pay cut. You'll deny it, but it's true. You'll say I don't have any proof, but it's obvious.

Of course you don't have any proof and not it's not obvious at all.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #70 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And you do know that finding more about people -- censuses, means tests, social worker visits, costs a LOT of money, do you not!?

Well, I'm trying to talk about a specific individual and you keep wanting to aggregate this up to some larger, abstract thing. It's true that actually wanting to help someone (rather than just anonymously tossing money at them...which could actually be harmful) takes a bit more investment of time and energy.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #71 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Let's deal with reality rather than hypotheticals. Hypotheticals have a nasty habit of stacking the deck in a way that is often unrealistic and biased.

OK, but check this out for the UK-

"Many prisons now have either Jobcentre Plus staff or Citizens’ Advice Bureau staff in the prison. These people can give you advice about what benefits you are entitled to. They may be able to set up an interview for you with your local Jobcentre Plus office before you leave prison, so that you can have your interview and start your benefits claim straight after release. This is called the Freshstart scheme. The prison may also run training courses about managing money, benefits and debt.http://www.nacro.org.uk/data/files/n...8070801-69.pdf

Personally I feel safer knowing they'll have some money in their pockets to live on and a roof over their heads.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #72 of 135
4/11/11 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

OK, but check this out for the UK-

"Many prisons now have either Jobcentre Plus staff or Citizens Advice Bureau staff in the prison. These people can give you advice about what benefits you are entitled to. They may be able to set up an interview for you with your local Jobcentre Plus office before you leave prison, so that you can have your interview and start your benefits claim straight after release. This is called the Freshstart scheme. The prison may also run training courses about managing money, benefits and debt.http://www.nacro.org.uk/data/files/n...8070801-69.pdf

Personally I feel safer knowing they'll have some money in their pockets to live on and a roof over their heads.

This sounds like a good idea. Do you assume that such similar services could not or would not be provided privately?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #73 of 135
4/11/11 at 6:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This sounds like a good idea. Do you assume that such similar services could not or would not be provided privately?

You do realize that they're giving advice about how to quickly obtain benefits as well as arranging job interviews, right?

One major problem felons face is that businesses often don't want to hire a felon. But sure, I'd welcome private involvement in prisons for prisoners who are near release to offer or help get, them a job. Instead what we have though is 9cents an hour labour building signs for MacDonalds and a host of other big corporations.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #74 of 135
4/11/11 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You do realize that they're giving device about how to quickly obtain benefits as well as arranging job interviews, right?

Well I was focused on the job part of the program, but thanks for pointing out how these welfare systems can have self-growing and self-perpetrating mechanisms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

One major problem felons face is that businesses often don't want to hire a felon.

It's true. This is a challenge. It isn't a universal of course. A lot would depend on the nature of the criminal activity. And, of course, some will be willing to give some of these folks a try. Some of them may need to find some way to gain the employer's confidence...perhaps by agreeing to a probationary employment period...maybe be willing to accept less pay to start until demonstrating themselves. Some employers may be interested to know whether this person's behavior while in prison indicated a change in conduct. I don't know. Every situation is unique.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But sure, I'd welcome private involvement in prisons for prisoners who are near release to offer or help get, them a job.

So we agree that private charitable services could work here. In fact, I have now doubt, we would find examples that exist today.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #75 of 135
4/11/11 at 6:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well I was focused on the job part of the program, but thanks for pointing out how these welfare systems can have self-growing and self-perpetrating mechanisms.




It's true. This is a challenge. It isn't a universal of course. A lot would depend on the nature of the criminal activity. And, of course, some will be willing to give some of these folks a try. Some of them may need to find some way to gain the employer's confidence...perhaps by agreeing to a probationary employment period...maybe be willing to accept less pay to start until demonstrating themselves. Some employers may be interested to know whether this person's behavior while in prison indicated a change in conduct. I don't know. Every situation is unique.




So we agree that private charitable services could work here. In fact, I have now doubt, we would find examples that exist today.

Where do you stand on the issue of employers having the right to automatically disclude someone from a job because the applicant has a criminal record?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #76 of 135
4/11/11 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Where do you stand on the issue of employers having the right to automatically disclude someone from a job because the applicant has a criminal record?

Well, I think they certainly have that right. Now also I think employers shouldn't have a categorical policy against hiring people with criminal records or convictions. I think each has a right to make these policies as they see fit.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #77 of 135
4/11/11 at 6:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, I think they certainly have that right. Now also I think employers shouldn't have a categorical policy against hiring people with criminal records or convictions. I think each has a right to make these policies as they see fit.

So you think the employer should have free reign to choose. There are laws in the US that require an employer only exclude someone if the nature of their crimes is relevant to the job.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #78 of 135
4/11/11 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So you think the employer should have free reign to choose.

Absolutely. I believe this the right of the business's owners.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There are laws in the US that require an employer only exclude someone if the nature of their crimes is relevant to the job.

I'm sure there are.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #79 of 135
4/11/11 at 7:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Absolutely. I believe this the right of the business's owners.


I'm sure there are.

Can you think of an example where the crime will have no bearing on the performance of the emloyee and yet the employer excludes them anyway?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #80 of 135
4/11/11 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Can you think of an example where the crime will have no bearing on the performance of the emloyee and yet the employer excludes them anyway?

Absolutely. Why?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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