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Look Who's Lying Again - Page 4

post #121 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As I explained, there is much question as to the veracity and full context of those 'facts'. I disagree that they qualify as such. So I disagree that Jimmac, BR and I are ignoring any 'facts'.

Meanwhile you are ignoring a few very blatant facts:

Let's look into these shall we as you seem in a better mood today. Help BR, he's going end stage.

Quote:
There are several European countries that have followed a Keynesian economic model.

They have followed it to a degree but actually this last round they've almost universally been implementing austerity measures where as Mr. Paul Krugman was screaming at the top of his longs, is the exact opposite of what Keynesian modeling suggests.

The EU as a whole is having to bail out one country after another and considered as a whole is going broke faster than the U.S. without the massive military in place. It's a race to the bottom for them right now. The P.I.I.G.S of Europe are a fact.

Quote:
All of these countries have lower poverty than the US.

Poverty is a self-defined and self reported measure that differs from country to country. That is a fact.

Quote:
It's possible that a country's overall 'wealth' can increase while poverty also increases.
It's possible that a country's overall 'wealth' can decrease while poverty also decreases.

The second case should be preferable to the first.

First you should define whether you are discussing absolute or relative poverty. The latter would absolutely not be desirable if you are talking relative poverty. Likewise the first example when discussing relative poverty makes perfect sense and isn't even alarming.

Quote:
'Wealth creation' should not be the goal without putting poverty in context.

I'd love to see you put poverty into context. Several people have asked for this from what I have read and folks like yourself seem to either intentionally confuse absolute and relative poverty.

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The idea that wealth creation absent other economic factors will decrease poverty is an unproven theory.

I'd have to disagree and I certainly could not call that statement a fact. The West has shown a rising standard of living, rising life expectancy and rising level of wealth all concurrently so while correlation isn't necessarily causation, the case is much stronger than what you claim.
Quote:
Fair enough. I'll start, in this thread, by providing a fair definition of poverty, and you can follow by providing yours.

My definition of poverty is actually the same as Nick's, with one qualifier:

Poverty is the inability to generate enough wealth to provide a reasonably humane and stable standard of living.

Your turn.

Since you modified my definition, please define humane and stable. This appears to be at the crux of defining absolute and relative poverty or at least clarifying your understanding of the concepts.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #122 of 128
Trumptman makes some good points and raises some questions about things I overlooked in my response. Namely, again, about how we're measuring these things like "wealth" and "poverty."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #123 of 128
I know many here have little respect for the UN, but I hope that they might nevertheless be willing to make the effort to understand the wonderful work the UNHRC does and the great advances in humanity UN Human Rights Treaties have helped bring about. With this in mind, I would define humaneness as living in a situation where UN defined human rights standards can be met. Obviously that means the ability to afford healthful sustenance and shelter, a reasonable amount of personal safety, and education at least post-puberty, as well as other rights, freedoms and protections which would fall into the category of human rights.

Stability means their human rights situation is unlikely to change suddenly and persistently due to economic factors.

I believe this is a finite definition of poverty, not a relative one. However, room is there for changes in the definition of human rights, and progress thereof.
post #124 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I know many here have little respect for the UN, but I hope that they might nevertheless be willing to make the effort to understand the wonderful work the UNHRC does and the great advances in humanity UN Human Rights Treaties have helped bring about. With this in mind, I would define humaneness as living in a situation where UN defined human rights standards can be met. Obviously that means the ability to afford healthful sustenance and shelter, a reasonable amount of personal safety, and education at least post-puberty, as well as other rights, freedoms and protections which would fall into the category of human rights.

Stability means their human rights situation is unlikely to change suddenly and persistently due to economic factors.

I believe this is a finite definition of poverty, not a relative one. However, room is there for changes in the definition of human rights, and progress thereof.

This is getting better. Still some vagueness though. The UN "human rights" charter is based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The first problem with that is that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a mix of both positive and negative rights. The second problem is that it also contains some vaguely worded or defined "rights."

In specific, I have no problem with articles 1-20 (these are mostly negative rights) and even 21 (though this is where the transition begins). But 22-29 are basically positive rights. These are not "rights" in my opinion. These things also start to get less objective and more vague.

You haven't directly comments on my definitions. Do you have any comments on them?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #125 of 128
It'll have to wait until tomorrow, as I've grown tired of writing all this on my iPod, and I need to get a few hours of sleep as soon as I get home before I wake up again at 7am tomorrow for a weekend course I'm taking.
post #126 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In other words you can't. You'd rather color my words with your interpretation. As a matter of fact I seem to recall saying the democrats would probably lose some seats. But I'm sure you glossed right over that. The emperor has no clothes!

You have to be kidding. One doesn't need to color what is black-on-white print.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #127 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You have to be kidding. One doesn't need to color what is black-on-white print.

Well what color is black and white in Bizzaro World!?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #128 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It'll have to wait until tomorrow, as I've grown tired of writing all this on my iPod, and I need to get a few hours of sleep as soon as I get home before I wake up again at 7am tomorrow for a weekend course I'm taking.

Rest that is important for you in life to get a good night sleep so your brain is more relaxed to learn more the next day.
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