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bowling for columbine

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
probably already discussed,
but I wonder how americans thinks about the movie and the topic.


<a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com" target="_blank">www.michaelmoore.com</a>
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post #2 of 28
My question is when is he going to get the gastric bypass?
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>My question is when is he going to get the gastric bypass?</strong><hr></blockquote>

really ?
I thought thats another widespread "american" problem.
But for real, what do you think about liberal weapon rights , the NRA, and so on ???
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post #4 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by iBeni:
<strong>
really ?
I thought thats another widespread "american" problem.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

Most of the responses by Americans to the questions Moore raises that I have seen follow the format of calling him fat and ugly and then attacking the film for not providing any answers.

The irony is of course that none of these people post pictures or vital statistics so that I can gauge if i should agree with their viewpoint and that they also fail to answer the questions or raise any better ones.

Moore certainly seems to make Americans uncomfortable, even some of the liberals seem to enjoy attacking him.
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post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
well the question of the film is:
why are in the US so many people killed by murder ?
Moore 's answer is not so clear. He says it's the media and the politics who pushes the fear ( of the bad, black guy). So almost everybody has a gun, and use it without hesistate when they come in a conflict they can't handle.

I think thats true somehow. The people were frightened and manipulated by media and politiciens. Also manipulated to focus on materialism and the pressure in the society, to have and to be something is big.
And a humanlife is gets less and less worth.

Well I'm not satisfied with that already and still look for other answers to the questions. Anybody ?
the border between genius and insanity is only measured by success....
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post #6 of 28
Read John Lott's book: More Guns, Less Crime.

Washington DC has a complete gun ban and among the highest gun violence rates in the world. Obviously "getting rid" of guns only affects law-abiding people.

Why would a person willing to commit capital murder decide to obey a GUN law? DUH!

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post #7 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by iBeni:
<strong>
I thought thats another widespread "american" problem.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The most dangerous "american" problem is the prevalence of folks who don't understand basic human rights and want to take them away. Such as the right to defend oneself.
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post #8 of 28
yes, owning a gun is a basic human right... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #9 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>yes, owning a gun is a basic human right... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

It's in our bill of rights.

More to the point may be that liberals like to march around and sound off about losing our "rights". But when they come across rights they don't agree with then protecting rights is not all that important anymore.
post #10 of 28
<a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm" target="_blank">Universal Declaration of Human Rights.</a>

hmm... Where is that article on guns?

Bill who?

Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #11 of 28
You have remember that after fighting off european oppression the framers crafted the right to own guns to protect us from you.
post #12 of 28
Hey if they just made a law against murder then people would stop killing each other!!!


aaaannnnnnddddddd......


If they just outlawed.....hmmmmmm....let's just say alcohol, then no one would want to drink it any more!!!


I mean it's not as if you would end up inadvertantly starting a massive organized crime element that you couldn't track and would haunt your society for years.


Oh course not! Who EVER heard of such a thing happening!?
post #13 of 28
[quote] You have remember that after fighting off european oppression the framers crafted the right to own guns to protect us from you. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, from us norwegians, who gained independence in 1905... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Our constitution is also quite good, right up there with the french and american, exept for the gun part...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #14 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>

It's in our bill of rights.

More to the point may be that liberals like to march around and sound off about losing our "rights". But when they come across rights they don't agree with then protecting rights is not all that important anymore.</strong><hr></blockquote>

SELF-DEFENSE exists as a basic human right with or without the 2nd Amendment.
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post #15 of 28
but who is to defend the rest of us from the self-defenders...?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #16 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>but who is to defend the rest of us from the self-defenders...?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The question should be "when am I going to thank the self-defenders for making my life safer."

Because I own a gun, you're less likely to be assaulted, car-jacked, or murdered. Because you live in a state of denial and think that guns are "evil" I end up bearing some of the cost of your safety. By owning a gun, I end up enabling people who live in deep denial about their relative safety in society.

You're welcome.

[ 11-24-2002: Message edited by: finboy ]</p>
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post #17 of 28
Me, New, living in Norway (lots of guns, but strong gun laws), have just a fraction of the chances of being shot compared to you, gun-owning american.
Call it denial, to me it's statistics.

And, btw, thanks for watching out for me!

[ 11-24-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #18 of 28
I just happened to read <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/11/24/basketball.shooting.ap/index.html" target="_blank">this story.</a> Kids were playing basketball, got in a tussle, and one went to his things and got a gun and shot another.

To me, this sums up the problem. If there had been no guns present, no one would have been shot. They would have had a fight, maybe a bruised face, knuckles, and ego, but no one shot. The widespread presence of guns makes this kind of shooting more likely.

BTW, it was at a church team basketball practice.
post #19 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>I just happened to read <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/11/24/basketball.shooting.ap/index.html" target="_blank">this story.</a> Kids were playing basketball, got in a tussle, and one went to his things and got a gun and shot another.

To me, this sums up the problem. If there had been no guns present, no one would have been shot. They would have had a fight, maybe a bruised face, knuckles, and ego, but no one shot. The widespread presence of guns makes this kind of shooting more likely.

BTW, it was at a church team basketball practice.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yeah, but if the other guy had had a gun . . .and the other players too . . well then . . . .um . . . ahh
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #20 of 28
For those interested ... SpinSanity has lot of coverage on this movie and the "lies and distortions" in it. Dispite the fact that I'm posting this, and some may think I'm bias, SpinSanity is a rather balanced site.

<a href="http://www.spinsanity.com/" target="_blank">http://www.spinsanity.com/</a>

[quote]Forbes finds more falsehoods in Moore's "Bowling" (11/25)

By Ben Fritz

As more observers take a critical look at Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," the number of lies and distortions found in the film keep piling up.

In addition to the deceptions I chronicled last week, Dan Lyons of Forbes magazine has noted four lies or distortions, three of which have not been previously reported. They continue two patterns of Moore's: relying on old news reports that simple research would reveal to be wrong and altering reality in order to make a point that he believes is valid.

...<hr></blockquote>

Rathing interesting reading.
post #21 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>You have remember that after fighting off european oppression the framers crafted the right to own guns to protect us from you. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The Second Amendment is designed to protect "us" from the government. I doubt the Framers had any intention of involving themselves in European politics.

...Or anyone else's politics for that matter, but that's a different rant.
post #22 of 28
Then why American death rates - caused by guns are much higher in American than in Europe and Japan?

Because of access to the guns.

Difficult to get access to guns means low death rate, low volience rate.

It seems they often hate to each other but all is they need to be more love, more freindly, more care and in the end the rate of deaths cause by volience will be much lower.

Think Japan.
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post #23 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by Funky:
<strong>Then why American death rates - caused by guns are much higher in American than in Europe and Japan?

Because of access to the guns.

Difficult to get access to guns means low death rate, low volience rate.

It seems they often hate to each other but all is they need to be more love, more freindly, more care and in the end the rate of deaths cause by volience will be much lower.

Think Japan.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bullshiza! America's violence stems from the fact that we're a nation of immigrants who don't always get along. You can also chart a rise in violence in many European nations that follows a rise in immigration. Xenophobia is alive and well. Japan is of course dominated by Japanese but ask a Korean(40+ yrs old) how fond they are of Japanese people and imagine them cohabitating the same country.

I totally agree that violence higher than what it should be but it's often very much exagerated and skewered.
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post #24 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>

The question should be "when am I going to thank the self-defenders for making my life safer."

Because I own a gun, you're less likely to be assaulted, car-jacked, or murdered. Because you live in a state of denial and think that guns are "evil" I end up bearing some of the cost of your safety. By owning a gun, I end up enabling people who live in deep denial about their relative safety in society.

You're welcome.

[ 11-24-2002: Message edited by: finboy ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Though I might be safer becuase of all the good doing finboys out there owning guns and bearing the cost of my safty, when they breakdown and get mad and have access to their own safty impletmenting guns and go on shooting sprees and kill people, i don't feel so safe. Though people might be of right mind most of the time owning a gun and use it only for selfdefence, people change, and they still have guns.
post #25 of 28
"Do you think it's safe to give out guns at a bank?"

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Priceless!
post #26 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by iBeni:
<strong>
well the question of the film is:
why are in the US so many people killed by murder ?
Moore 's answer is not so clear. He says it's the media and the politics who pushes the fear ( of the bad, black guy). So almost everybody has a gun, and use it without hesistate when they come in a conflict they can't handle.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't believe this is his answer. I don't believe he actually stated an answer in the film. He explored a lot of the things, issues, and people that are commonly blamed as being the "problem". He was making a point by doing this...
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
To me, this sums up the problem. If there had been no guns present, no one would have been shot. They would have had a fight, maybe a bruised face, knuckles, and ego, but no one shot. The widespread presence of guns makes this kind of shooting more likely.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. Even in the film, Moore points out that other countries have just as many guns as the United States. If the kid didn't have a gun then, he would find one. Someone once said, "I will find a way or I will make one!" You can't rid the country of guns or weapons manufacturers, and on the street, people will always be able to get a firearm if they really want one. Just like if someone really wants to break into my apartment, they will. The solution isn't in removing all firearms, it is in teaching people that firearms are not the means to a solution.

Furthermore, and as evidenced in the film, people seem to want to be able to blame a single thing as the problem.

"Bad Gun laws are the real problem!"
"No they aren't!"
"Then what is?"

The truth is that there isn't a single thing that is the problem, rather, and I think this is the point Moore was trying to drive home, it is a combination of issues that have contributed to the problem as it exists today.

Example: The other day I was watching a movie in the theater. There was this group of kids in the lower right of the theater, and another group in the upper middle. They wouldn't shut up throughout the whole film. Whenever we got to an important or tense part of the film, they would yell something. This is a *big* pet peeve of mine, especially when they have been asked, repeatedly, to stfu.

My very first thought, and I said this to Roo was, :'God, these people should be shot. No trial, just shot upon exit of the theater.'

Would I ever shoot somebody? I hope not. so you could argue that coming from me, that statement doesn't mean much. I'm not the only person that thinks this way though. There are people who do think that way that also carry firearms and are quite willing to use them as evidenced by the story quoted above about the shooting on a basketball court.

The issue that we are faced with is that of violence. Why is violence one of the first methods that comes to mind when we want to solve a problem like this? I guarantee you in that basketball game, just like the kids that commit school shootings, the shooter was tired of being picked on and got really frustrated... knew he had access to a weapon, and felt it the appropriate way to solve the situation.

Who do we blame? Well, for starters, we don't blame just one person, thing, or event. Second, we shouldn't get stuck playing this blame game either. There are a lot of reasons why things are the way they are. The media doesn't help, the neighborhoods some of these kids are brough up in don't help. The family life in some of these households aren't helping either. The things some forms of music talk about and promote aren't helping (because yes, it's quite obvious it has played a role in kids being more violent).

More gun laws aren't going to stop it. Silencing music groups won't stop it. Cleaning up the 11 'o Clock news isn't going to stop it either. Getting rid of the NRA won't either.

I don't have a good answer as to the solution, and to come full circle, I don't believe that Michael Moore does either. He simply points out a lot of contributing factors to the issue, and debunks some of the more common myths. I think what we can conclude is that Americans think in violent ways, and also believe it is ok to act in violent ways. Not all of us do act, but most of us at least think in violent terms. And that means something; there is something to that. I don't believe it is a Good Thing that my first instinct to solve the problem of noisy patrons in a movie theater is to shoot them.

But that solves the prblem quickly, and as long as I don't want to think ahead beyond solving the current problem, that falls in line with the traditional american attitude of "Gotta have it done right now don't need to think ahead just gotta have it now".

It's too deep in our culture now, like a plague. How do you solve that? It will take time, and that isn't something americans are good with.

[Last freaking edit...]

[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: M3D Jack ]</p>
post #27 of 28
amen.
post #28 of 28
[quote]Originally posted by M3D Jack:
<strong>

It's too deep in our culture now, like a plague. How do you solve that? It will take time, and that isn't something americans are good with.

[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: M3D Jack ]

[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: M3D Jack ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh yes! Rememeber the New York City, during the late 1990s before Sept 11th, the NYC mayor - Rudy Giuliani , NYPD and the zero teroence campigan?
NYPD and Rudy Giuliani the NYC mayor lead the zero teroence campigan and it has transfered the once highest crime rate city in the USA to much lower crime rate plus the lower rate of gun crime, and in the end it is not the highest crime rate in the USA anymore.

See that? Yes that could be happening, as I am British and I strong belive one day Americans will get rid of gun culture but it maybe won't happen in our lifetime.

If they managed to bring down of the once higher crime rate in NYC to lower crime rate and that zero teroence policy has worked then why don't the USA-nationwide adopt that policy?

[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: Funky ]

[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: Funky ]</p>
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