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Greenpeace 'dirty data' report criticizes Apple's NC data center - Page 3

post #81 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

"Save The Earth" is the wrong slogan. The Earth is going to be here indifferent to us. The Earth is always working to balance itself indifferent to us. The effort is to work in harmony with the Earth to maintain an environment that is sustainable for us. A life sustaining environment is not automatically assured.

That is what Im saying. And we do have an effect, we just dont know to what extent that effect is. Im just saying we should try to make as ideal for us as possible to maximize our longevity.

That isnt to say that we would be or could be successful at every needed endeavor but we should try. Note that weve done it already with the agriculture and animal husbandry and all the good and bad that has come from those first changes. My point was not to simply exploit certain resources (as we do) for positive gain without looking at the negative results, but to learn to exploit all of them in such a way that were ultimately better off for it as a species.

Maybe my wording was poor as I seem to be unable to express this thought clearly, but Ill try again. Its not enough to simply sit back and simply react to the world, we need to be proactive. We need to learn to anticipate our actions and the everything beyond us as best we can to help ensure our survival.

Take threats from asteroids into consideration. The universe is our environment by virtue of the Earth residing in it. NASA apparently has a plan to protect the planet in case of an asteroid. That is humanity proactively taking steps to prevent something that would dramatically change our planet in ways that would create another mass extinction. Should we ignore that even if our chance for success is slim? I dont think so.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #82 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post

Mostly because of their poor reasoning abilities, their tendency to use statistics without an understanding of the context, and their complete lack of understanding of the incredible damage their movement is doing to both the economy _and_ the environment.

Most scientists consider it valuable to be environmentally conscious. Logic and statistics are on the side of environmental science.

You've fallen into the trap of thinking that the crazy extremists involved with a cause are the definition of that cause.
post #83 of 91
The only I way I can see to accomplish that is to try to have as minimal impact on things as possible. If the Earth were to make a dramatic shift that rendered inhabitability for us - there really is nothing we can do about it.

The problem with us is that our thinking is so small in scope. We are just trying to survive day by day. While the Earth is working on a multi-milenial time frame. The grand picture is on a scale that we really cannot comprehend.

Our tinkering around with things that we really don't fully understand could be the very action that leads to our premature existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is what Im saying. And we do have an effect, we just dont know to what extent that effect is. Im just saying we should try to make as ideal for us as possible to maximize our longevity.
post #84 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The only I way I can see to accomplish that is to try to have as minimal impact on things as possible. If the Earth were to make a dramatic shift that rendered inhabitability for us - there really is nothing we can do about it.

The problem with us is that our thinking is so small in scope. We are just trying to survive day by day. While the Earth is working on a multi-milenial time frame. The grand picture is on a scale that we really cannot comprehend.

Our tinkering around with things that we really don't fully understand could be the very action that leads to our premature existence.

Thats true. Our time here has been minuscule compared to other species. As I recall, even Neanderthal reigned for 300,000 years. Our science may indeed do us in, but it also gives us the best chance of survival against an unknown and unforgiven universe.
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post #85 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

OK, I was referring to the comments made by a known troll--not useful. But you have to admit, there is an undercurrent of anti-environmentalism running through the comments on this thread as if environmental concerns are the problem...
Seriously? You are missing the forrest for the trees here! (sorry for the Green cliche.)
Are we not talking energy use on an Apple fan/rumor site? Is this not some sort of dialogue? Is it not possible that Apple will be looking into some way to offset their dependency on coal power in NC. Might not other companies building future server farms consider their power sources as part of the equation?
Again, Greenpeace's publicity stunts are not the end--if so, they would be nothing more than noisy propaganda as you complain. Instead, this is more likely the beginning. You will see much more discussion in the future about the environmental footprint of enormous data centers as well as initiatives that mitigate their environmental impacts. This all takes time, and in the end most people will have forgotten that Greenpeace put the issue on the map...


I'm not sure what machine you are referring to here, so I cannot comment on that. But I think it is obvious that in any public discussion of heated issues, each party talks about the points they want to emphasize. Do you really think that Greenpeace is unique on this account?

Greenpeace threw in Apple's name to garner attention to themselves, not in bringing attention to Apple being more "green". They do not mention what kind of power Apple is using in NC which is why I provided the nuclear examples that I did. All they had to do was look on a map to see these plants and then they could have asked Apple about their power plans for the data center based on said info. That was not mentioned though so instead they throw out those coal plant to "green" plant numbers to hype their cause. They either did not do their research or they chose to leave parts out to make their point thus feeding the "machine" of ignorance.
post #86 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

"Save The Earth" is the wrong slogan. The Earth is going to be here indifferent to us. The Earth is always working to balance itself indifferent to us. The effort is to work in harmony with the Earth to maintain an environment that is sustainable for us. A life sustaining environment is not automatically assured.


Hear, Hear!!

Nor is a life sustaining environment guaranteed even if we do everything in our power assure it.
OMG here we go again...
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OMG here we go again...
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post #87 of 91
That's only for data centres though. For device manufacturing, Apple's pretty average: http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...r-Electronics/
post #88 of 91
That's the sad thing about eco-weenies -- giving them any appeasement at all just encourages them to bite you harder in the future. Apple even has Al Gore on their board why do you think that is? Hint: it isn't because he invented the internet.
post #89 of 91
Al Gore is no friend of non-moronic environmentalists. He's polluted more than his fair share with mining operations, and the only reason he's a proponent of cap & trade is he personally stands to profit from the scheme.

Anyway, if Greenpeace really wanted to draw attention to the greatest environmental impact, they would be protesting DRAM manufacturers.
post #90 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Shh! No one tel Greenpeace about Apples production in China.


Interesting.

Actually China is pushing for green power much harder then we are in the states. Since this was published a contract has surfaced for building a solar farm next to the data center. I wonder if Greenpeace actually tried to contact Apple about their plans for the site before publishing this?
post #91 of 91
Wow, a thread back from the dead!

The who's pushing harder metric seems a bit contrived. How does one even measure that? Percentage of power generation by source? Tons of pollutants per person? Change in total pollution per year? Willingness to endure economic impact due to green power? Is damning of the Yangtze to be green? Grandstanding by government officials?

... i won't even hazard a guess about who is pushing harder for green power.
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