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iOS location data prompts investigations of Apple in South Korea, Europe

post #1 of 102
Thread Starter 
A file with a comprehensive list of visited locations saved locally on users' iPhones has prompted investigations of Apple from numerous governments, including France, Germany, Italy and South Korea.

The Korea Communications Commission has asked Apple about the iOS location recording controversy, according to Bloomberg. The government has asked Apple why the data is saved on devices and whether it is stored on the company's servers.

The commission also announced it will form a team with the intention of protecting smartphone users' information and privacy. An Apple spokesman in Seoul declined to comment.

South Korea reportedly joins France, Germany and Italy, where privacy regulators have also investigated Apple. The probes have been prompted by two security researchers, who last week detailed their findings of a comprehensive log of users' locations stored in iOS 4.

Last week, U.S. Sen. Al Franken and Rep. Ed Markey sent letters to Apple expressing their own concerns over the iOS 4 location tracking file. They requested information as to why the data is collected, and who, if anyone, it is shared with.

Peter Warden and Alasair Allan brought attention to the hidden file, named "consolidated.db," which is unencrypted and unprotected, and is even backed up and restored through syncing with iTunes. The file includes latitude and longitude coordinates along with a time stamp, and though the information is not transmitted to anyone, it has been portrayed as a security concern because someone with access to the device, or an iTunes backup file, could obtain the information.

iPhone location data plotted | Source: O'Reilly Radar

The issue was given further attention on Monday by The Wall Street Journal, which also profiled the location tracking file. Tests conducted by the newspaper found that an iPhone collects and stores location data even when location services are turned off on the device.

One report last week portrayed the file as likely to be a bug or "oversight" in the iOS 4 software. It was suggested that the issue will be addressed in a forthcoming update to Apple's mobile operating system.
post #2 of 102
Oh my god! Did you know that your iphone stores your personal data on this, your personal device! What ever were they thinking? Or that if you lost your phone or someone got into it, they could see that personal data if they can crack your PASSWORD? Oh yah, that's right, it stores personal data like your email, your contacts, your documents! This is such a BS issue! All my friends are enjoying the free app that actually lets them access their personal location data and map it. And did you know that the carriers have the same data and share it with the government when asked? The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
post #3 of 102
While a non-issue for some and a big issue for others (I fall into the non-issue crowd), I'd still like to see a response from Apple.
post #4 of 102
This has gone political now. The politicians, both here and in Europe, see an opportunity to make it look like they are concerned about citizen's privacy. Of course the truth is that they will rake Apple and possibly Google over the coals for awhile and then sweep it all under the rug. No way do they want to ban tracking for their own governmental and law enforcement uses.

And because it's Apple this story will have legs for a long time, at least until Steve Jobs holds a press conference and offers free tin foil hats ( in several cool colors) to all the paranoids out there.

And yes, of course, there will be a class action lawsuit. I'm surprsied it hasn't been announced yet. Maybe today?
post #5 of 102
Apple needs to get on this quick. All over the Internet people are freaking out. Not just at tech sites. Everywhere. And the mainstream media are feeding their fears.

People don't care about the details. They think that iPhones are feeding your whereabouts and personal info directly to people watching you on a monitor all day long.

Time to respond, Apple.
post #6 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Apple needs to get on this quick. All over the Internet people are freaking out. Not just at tech sites. Everywhere. And the mainstream media are feeding their fears.

People don't care about the details. They think that iPhones are feeding your whereabouts and personal info directly to people watching you on a monitor all day long.

Time to respond, Apple.

So true, considering that we know it's only stored locally and not being transmitted anywhere. I have seen many news shows fail to mention that part.
post #7 of 102
Agreed. The lack of a response gives the wrong appearance even if it's much ado about nothing.
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post #8 of 102
It's not easy to give a response. If they say they'll delete the file, that means they implicitly admit it's a mistake to have the file in the first place (hence liability), if they don't delete the file they'd have to justify it which means trouble down the road.
post #9 of 102
Perhaps they are coordinating their response with the relevant US departments involved right now.

or...

They are attempting to deal with the greatest Chinese spy mission in history.

The story is going to be a cracker, even if it is .. "geez, missed that one left over from test unit code, oops"

Perhaps Apple did it as a knee jerk to the iPhone 4 prototype muddle..

Should we tweet random fear into the sphere?
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post #10 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Apple needs to get on this quick.

What are they supposed to say that won't make things worse.

That file has always been there. It's just now a couple of guys that wanted some PR exposed it to the public. If Apple reacts like it is a major deal they look bad. If they act like it is no deal they look bad. They are actually better off not making a statement about it until asked to do so by a legal authority. Which may have already happened we just haven't heard about it yet

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post #11 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by drobforever View Post

It's not easy to give a response. If they say they'll delete the file, that means they implicitly admit it's a mistake to have the file in the first place (hence liability), if they don't delete the file they'd have to justify it which means trouble down the road.

Just being honest would work. Whether it's what anyone want to hear wouldn't matter then.

@AppleZilla: Remember how forum members reacted last year to Google's delay in responding to StreetView concerns? Perhaps not. Some posters here had them convicted of numerous felonies as soon as the EU opened an investigation. Lots of comments along the lines of illegal and unethical. The same types of concerns will get posted about Apple (not here necessarily), and get worse the longer they're silent about it. With nothing to hide there's no reason to need days to craft a response.
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post #12 of 102
How do people think the iPhone knows when you have been to a particular Wi-Fi spot before? Further, many devices come shipped with locations services in which a user selects to turn on or off.
post #13 of 102
South Korea, Europe want Apple to share.
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post #14 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Apple needs to get on this quick. All over the Internet people are freaking out. Not just at tech sites. Everywhere. And the mainstream media are feeding their fears.

People don't care about the details. They think that iPhones are feeding your whereabouts and personal info directly to people watching you on a monitor all day long.

Time to respond, Apple.

A statement from Apple would definitely be helpful. However, that's not Apple's style. They realize that this will probably blow over in another week or so. When we focus on the present we tend to overestimate its impact on the future. Apple recognizes this, so they don't see a need to respond to every accusation against them. There are so many accusations anyway, that they would constantly have to respond to something. If they set that precedent, then they would potentially be trapped in a cycle of accusation followed by response, because if they fail to respond to anything then it would give it legitimacy. Their current strategy allows them to only respond to things that are major public relations problems with the potential to affect sales.
post #15 of 102
Brometheus, would you have that same response if this article was about Microsoft or Google?
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post #16 of 102
Told you so.

Apple's smugness could come back to bite them in the derrière.

This one is at least as big as antennagate, where Apple finally did the right things (after seemingly exhausting all other avenues).

Let's see how Cook handles this.
post #17 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Just being honest would work. Whether it's what anyone want to hear wouldn't matter then.

@AppleZilla: Remember how forum members reacted last year to Google's delay in responding to StreetView concerns? Perhaps not. Some posters here had them convicted of numerous felonies as soon as the EU opened an investigation. Lots of comments along the lines of illegal and unethical. The same types of concerns will get posted about Apple (not here necessarily), and get worse the longer they're silent about it. With nothing to hide there's no reason to need days to craft a response.

Well, I know you're a troll, but I think it's still necessary to point out that the existence of a file with a location history on your iPhone and your computer is not in any way analogous to driving around the streets and capturing data from people's home WiFi networks. In this case, it's a matter of leaving digital fingerprints that one would prefer were wiped clean, in the Street View case, it's a matter of actively violating privacy.

What Google did was in fact illegal in some of the places they did it. It was certainly unethical to do it, just as it was unethical to pretend they didn't know they were doing it. (And they could not have not known, since they could not have not seen that the data was being collected unless they were completely ignoring all the data their cars collected, which they obviously did not.) There's nothing illegal or unethical in the existence of a file of location data on individual phones.

So, to attempt to equate these things is entirely disingenuous, unless of course one simply has no understanding of either issue.
post #18 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

While a non-issue for some and a big issue for others (I fall into the non-issue crowd), I'd still like to see a response from Apple.

They responded over a year ago. How about reading the response they've already put forth.
post #19 of 102
I keep my iPhone in my pocket along with my wallet and my keys. My computer is protected by a username & password. So let me get this straight... If someone mugged me and got a hold of my iPhone, they would also have the keys to my car and my house along with all my credit cards. First on their list of things to steal would obviously be my consolidated.db file.

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post #20 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Just being honest would work. Whether it's what anyone want to hear wouldn't matter then.

@AppleZilla: Remember how forum members reacted last year to Google's delay in responding to StreetView concerns? Perhaps not. Some posters here had them convicted of numerous felonies as soon as the EU opened an investigation. Lots of comments along the lines of illegal and unethical. The same types of concerns will get posted about Apple (not here necessarily), and get worse the longer they're silent about it. With nothing to hide there's no reason to need days to craft a response.

It makes me wonder, because tracking is done on all smart phones to increase connectivity to both cell towers and Wifi zones. The issue is NOT that they do it, it IS that the file retained by the iPhone is for a LONG period of time - as in the last year versus just the last week. THAT is the issue from a "security" perspective, and was previously discussed by another security expert with little of the brough-ha-ha this recent re-revelation is bringing. Certainly it is helping the reputation and awareness for the two recent "security experts". And the fact that the data is backed up to the local PC by iTunes in case that file needs to be recovered to the iPhone in question - but is backed up unencrypted - unless you were smart and have iTunes encrypt your backups (see the check-box). This is nothing like the Google StreetView issue at all - and yes that sort of activity can be challenged as illegal.

This heedless slavering about Apple "having to do something" is rather silly. They will either do something or not - it's Apple decision and they will weigh whether silence or revelation will best suit their needs. Any other opinion offered at this juncture reflects reality only so much as your background and experience include running a large multi-billion dollar comapny successfully for a decade or two.
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post #21 of 102
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Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

They responded over a year ago. How about reading the response they've already put forth.

Yes but it was very vague and insinuated you can turn it off, which you can not.
post #22 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I keep my iPhone in my pocket along with my wallet and my keys. My computer is protected by a username & password. So let me get this straight... If someone mugged me and got a hold of my iPhone, they would also have the keys to my car and my house along with all my credit cards. First on their list of things to steal would obviously be my consolidated.db file.

How big of a deal people see this as will vary depending on culture.

Europeans generally, and Germans especially, are extremely sensitive to any unrequested intrusion in their life, and given what happened in that country 70 years ago, you can perhaps understand why.

Since moving to the US, I've actually been surprised how much information Americans are more than willing to let people have but again, culturally that's how they are, and that's just fine.

Personally, it doesn't worry me that much although I do think there are questions that need answering. I don't understand why they would need to build such a file and I can see how it could be used for nefarious means. The fact that I actually trust Apple to do the right thing with my data is neither here nor there, I'd still like to understand why they are logging my position.
post #23 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Told you so.

Apple's smugness could come back to bite them in the derrière.

This one is at least as big as antennagate, where Apple finally did the right things (after seemingly exhausting all other avenues).

Let's see how Cook handles this.

My guess is Apple are nearing an iOS update that will encrypt the data and hopefully give a user option to a) allow it and list the benefits or b) not allow and list the features that won't work as well if at all.

I notice my latest Garmin shows a nice blue overlay of exactly where I've been before when I drive to an area previously visited, even months later. This is very useful to me but would no doubt freak 50% of the population out. To be honest I haven't checked the settings on it to see if this can be switched off, but it sure is the default mode.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

How big of a deal people see this as will vary depending on culture.

Europeans generally, and Germans especially, are extremely sensitive to any unrequested intrusion in their life, and given what happened in that country 70 years ago, you can perhaps understand why.

Since moving to the US, I've actually been surprised how much information Americans are more than willing to let people have but again, culturally that's how they are, and that's just fine.

Personally, it doesn't worry me that much although I do think there are questions that need answering. I don't understand why they would need to build such a file and I can see how it could be used for nefarious means. The fact that I actually trust Apple to do the right thing with my data is neither here nor there, I'd still like to understand why they are logging my position.


I think Apple need to explain the benefits for sure. There are many I can think of ranging from the device learning how to best serve you information based on such data (think Siri), to mapping (... this is where you have been before), hiking (where you have been for you and maybe even for those that find your phone when you are missing!) . However it should be a user option and the data should be encrypted.
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post #24 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

How do people think the iPhone knows when you have been to a particular Wi-Fi spot before? Further, many devices come shipped with locations services in which a user selects to turn on or off.

It does not do this with location data at all. It looks for the name of the wifi access point. That's why when you connect to a access point with a default name like linksys or netgear and then drive around a city your iPhone, ipod touch, iPad will connect to all these random access points because they have the same default name and people are to stupid to change them. (or are smart and setting up honey pots to grab your data)

If you read the article, this data is being stored regardless if you have location services on of off.
post #25 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Told you so.

Apple's smugness could come back to bite them in the derrière.

This one is at least as big as antennagate, where Apple finally did the right things (after seemingly exhausting all other avenues).

Let's see how Cook handles this.

How is blazes is this about "smugness"?? Seriously, anthropmorphizing human emotion to corporate entities is bloody silly, and a major push-button idiocy for me. The decision as to if, how and /or when to respond to something like this involves the right kind of decisionmaking at Apple. Or would you prefer they just spout off half-cocked and make a bigger hash of a minor issue? I daresay it isn't, and won't be, as big as "antennagate" once Apple responds to the required legitimate inquiries. Whether they decide to clue in any of the tech sites is another matter altogether. Apple did some damage control on antennagate when it got out of hand - not that it was a critical issue, and politicians are eager to jump on something like this without understanding what's going on. I think you are confusing the dust in the wind with something solid.
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post #26 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

They responded over a year ago. How about reading the response they've already put forth.

Good luck trying to talk sense in some people here. I've posted links to that letter since day one but no one seem to bother read it even though I saved them time by pointing to the exact page where Apple explain why and how they gather this information. I even posted a link to Apple TOS where they specifically talk about this as well.
post #27 of 102
Anonymouse, it doesn't matter at all whether you think it's fair. Questions about Apple's ethics will be raised in newspapers, blogs, TV segments, etc., and will get worse the longer Apple takes to figure out what they should say.

It's not me you should have any concerns about. Personally I don't see any big deal. If Apple isn't hiding some previously undisclosed use of the collected data, then it becomes just an honest oversight in all likelihood. The press is not being as kind.
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post #28 of 102
This is a stupid waste of government. For crying out loud... you already carry how much personal information on your device? You take pictures that track your GPS location as well check into various services. If you're that paranoid that someone might know where you were, either a) don't go there dummy or b) turn of location services.

There's another point that was made here that makes a lot of sense. What if part of the magic of this devices is that it can know where you've been and if you have access to certain resources. A good for instance is if you connect to multiple WiFi routers with the same name and channel, etc. There's a lot of reasons that knowing this information is good for the user experience.

I think it would be good for Apple to have a way to turn this off, or to know that it's there in case they want to know.
post #29 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Apple needs to get on this quick. All over the Internet people are freaking out. Not just at tech sites. Everywhere. And the mainstream media are feeding their fears.

People don't care about the details. They think that iPhones are feeding your whereabouts and personal info directly to people watching you on a monitor all day long.

Time to respond, Apple.

They responded last year.

Basically Apple say they need to collect detailed user tracking information in order to provide services and they are allowed to because the user agrees to it somewhere in the EULA.

That's just the kind of comment to relax nervous users!

I'm not sure what else Apple could say that won't be taken as an admission of guilt.
post #30 of 102
This is in the same class as the "Great Antenna Issue" of last year. The adult manifestation of the phenomenon of mass hysteria feinting spells of 13-year old school girls.
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post #31 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Anonymouse, it doesn't matter at all whether you think it's fair. Questions about Apple's ethics will be raised in newspapers, blogs, TV segments, etc., and will get worse the longer Apple takes to figure out what they should say.

It's not me you should have any concerns about. Personally I don't see any big deal. If Apple isn't hiding some previously undisclosed use of the collected data, then it becomes just an honest oversight in all likelihood. The press is not being as kind.

One has only to use the Siri app to see how such information aids future AI on iPhones. This is just one example. I repeat though, the next iOS update needs a well explained user option to use or not on this. Apple need to explain this as a feature with benefits.
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post #32 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

So true, considering that we know it's only stored locally and not being transmitted anywhere. I have seen many news shows fail to mention that part.

That still doesnt change the fact the file can be used for grief. Its already being used by violent man to track down there spouse and find the location of women shelters. By parents to find out where there teens have been, ... the dangers associated with that file are all over the net, just take the time to read...

Apple need to limit the timeframe and make the file un-accessable to users. And maybe they need to respond to all the inquiries about it ASAP!?! Until they do, the bad press is only going to get worst, not to mention the lawsuits.
post #33 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

How do people think the iPhone knows when you have been to a particular Wi-Fi spot before?

It doesn't use location for that. It recognizes the network identity (provided by the WiFi router) as one you used before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Further, many devices come shipped with locations services in which a user selects to turn on or off.

The story here says that the file updates regardless of whether you have turned off location services.

Having answered all of that, I still fall into the camp of folks that really don't care. In fact, if I get a chance, I'll find a way to access that file and plot the locations on Google Earth. It should be a huge mess in my common haunts, but the outliers might look interesting...


Thompson
post #34 of 102
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily...&asset=&ccode=

I think you have to have Flash to view this.
post #35 of 102
It's baffling... what is the benefit of secretly storing location info for Apple? With legions of hackers out there dissecting their hardware and software, it was only a matter of time before someone discovered this, with the inevitable fallout being yet another black eye to an industry already maligned for playing fast and loose with personal data.

But what is the end game? Market research?? It's so strange. Apple is doing so well without pulling stupid 'big brother' stunts like this. But I guess the fact that they're doing so well means that they can pull stunts like this. I hope Apple gets some meaningful competition someday just to keep them in line with stuff like this. What am I gonna do, get angry and go back to my blackberry?
post #36 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Brometheus, would you have that same response if this article was about Microsoft or Google?

Good question. I would probably think the same way, but I wouldn't post my thoughts. Yes, I have a pro-Apple bias in terms of what makes me want to post something.
post #37 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

How is blazes is this about "smugness"?? Seriously, anthropmorphizing human emotion to corporate entities is bloody silly, and a major push-button idiocy for me. ...

While I agree that this has nothing to do with smugness, I think you're entirely mistaken in your comments regarding, "anthropmorphizing (sic) human emotion to corporate entities." "Corporate entities," don't make decisions, people do. It's not like a corporation has a real existence outside the people who own it and work at it, and it's not like a corporation is an inanimate object, such as a rock. So it's not at all unreasonable to attribute "human emotion" to a corporation, when it is really just a collective entity made up of humans (despite the nature of its legal status); no more unreasonable than attributing human emotion to a mob.
post #38 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by manfrommars View Post

It's baffling... what is the benefit of secretly storing location info for Apple? With legions of hackers out there dissecting their hardware and software, it was only a matter of time before someone discovered this, with the inevitable fallout being yet another black eye to an industry already maligned for playing fast and loose with personal data.

But what is the end game? Market research?? It's so strange. Apple is doing so well without pulling stupid 'big brother' stunts like this. But I guess the fact that they're doing so well means that they can pull stunts like this. I hope Apple gets some meaningful competition someday just to keep them in line with stuff like this. What am I gonna do, get angry and go back to my blackberry?

Ate you joking? I mean are you being sarcastic or have you really sat around fantasizing all sorts of nefarious reasons Apple would deliberately track and store location data?

There are many reasons that ALL location aware devices track and STORE your location, why Apple didn't encrypt or limit the duration of this data is most likely simply oversight and something Apple could easily rectify in a few weeks with a software update. Further what is with people's expectation these days that companies respond to this stuff instantly? It's been a week people. A week containing a holiday at that... Chill out.

Or maybe they haven't made use of this data yet but are planning on transferring it all to that massive new data center where they are going to use it to model eeyones behavior so the can accurately predict our every move for the rest of eternity... Apple is going to know when and where I'm going before I do, next time I pull of the interstate to use the restroom their going to send a man ahead to be there selling iWipes.
post #39 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Oh my god! Did you know that your iphone stores your personal data on this, your personal device! What ever were they thinking? Or that if you lost your phone or someone got into it, they could see that personal data if they can crack your PASSWORD? Oh yah, that's right, it stores personal data like your email, your contacts, your documents! This is such a BS issue! All my friends are enjoying the free app that actually lets them access their personal location data and map it. And did you know that the carriers have the same data and share it with the government when asked? The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

#1 the government/law enforcement needs a separate court order to request location information from a cell phone provider.

#2 US boarder agents do NOT need court order to search your phone for any info, for any reason.

#3 yes you should encrypt your phone, but this file is also copied to your computer every time you back up your IOS device, default unencrypted.
post #40 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I keep my iPhone in my pocket along with my wallet and my keys. My computer is protected by a username & password. So let me get this straight... If someone mugged me and got a hold of my iPhone, they would also have the keys to my car and my house along with all my credit cards. First on their list of things to steal would obviously be my consolidated.db file.

Lets say someone at your workplace was murdered. Police suspect you. They subpoena your phone and your computer to look for evidence. They find consolidated.db and discover that lo and behold, you were near the location when the victim was murdered, when actually, you had accidentally left your cell phone at work.

Based on this circumstantial evidence and flawed eyewitness testimony (happens all the time) you are convicted and executed, because you live in Texas.

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