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Apple, Google called to U.S. Senate hearing on mobile privacy

post #1 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:16pm
Thread Starter 
As the controversy over persistent location tracking in the iPhone and Google Android devices continues to surge, representatives from Apple and Google have been summoned to a Senate judiciary hearing on mobile technology privacy in May.

Democratic Senator Al Franken, who chairs the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, will hold the hearing, titled "Protecting Mobile Privacy: Your Smartphones, Tablets, Cell Phones and Your Privacy," on May 10.

Alongside the requested representatives from Apple and Google, witnesses at the hearing would include officials from the Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission; Ashkan Soltani, independent privacy researcher and consultant and Justin Brookman, Director of the Center for Democracy and Technology's Project on Consumer Privacy.

Recent advances in mobile technology have allowed Americans to stay connected like never before and put an astonishing number of resources at our fingertips, Franken said in a statement. But the same technology that has given us smartphones, tablets, and cell phones has also allowed these devices to gather extremely sensitive information about users, including detailed records of their daily movements and location. This hearing is the first step in making certain that federal laws protecting consumers privacyparticularly when it comes to mobile deviceskeep pace with advances in technology."

After security researchers revealed last week that Apple's iOS 4 operating system stores a detailed log of user's locations, Franken and other government officials sent concerned letters to Apple.

Last week, two customers filed a class-action lawsuit against Apple, seeking refunds for their iPhones. The plaintiffs claimed they would never have bought the devices if they had known of the location tracking.

A report from The Wall Street Journal on Monday further ignited the issue when it revealed that location tracking appears to continue on the iPhone even when location services are disabled on the device.

South Korea, France, Germany and Italy have all reportedly initiated investigations into the practice.

iPhone location data plotted | Source: O'Reilly Radar

Also on Monday, Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan called for a meeting with Apple and Google in a letter to the companies addressing concerns over the storing of user location data.

I want to know whether consumers have been informed of what is being tracked and stored by Apple and Google and whether those tracking and storage features can be disabled, said Madigan. Its important that these companies ensure that their users private information is protected.
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post #2 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:43pm
I understand this is bad, but with all the crap going on in the world, it seems like a waste of teh senate's valuable time - why not look into things like the dirty money going from the Fed to Goldman Sachs or the fact that the year after a massive bailout, GE made 10s of billions in PROFITS and ended up getting a multibillion dollar TAX REFUND when mom and pop shops struggle to pay their 35%. And why are we still in 2 wars and starting a third?

Its good to know our Senators want to pretend to grill the shills from Google and apple before they all go for cocktails and exchange campaign donations for thank yous, but sheesh, we have more important fake shows of outrage to fill the hours on CSPAN.

Now that I have my cynical rant out of my system, let me say that Al Frankin is a great Senator and appears to be one of the few in DC working for the people.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #3 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:44pm
Apple can easily avoid all of this fuss by coming out and explaining why they're doing what they're doing, and more important, allowing users the option to not sync the location data with iTunes (just as they do with calendar, contacts etc.) It's not such a big deal.

Otherwise, this story is going to get much worse before it gets better.
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post #4 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:48pm
Apple and Google will be there to help the US Senate craft new legislation that clarifies what is legitimate and what is not.

In the end, Apple's application Localization services will be the legitimate version as it's designed to make your 3rd party apps experience that much more rich and seamless.

I look forward to Google having to curb their usages for the data they actually encrypt and then collection back to corporate.
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post #5 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Apple and Google will be there to help the US Senate craft new legislation that clarifies what is legitimate and what is not.

I am not sure that I want Google to have anything to do with 'crafting' legislation that affects me.

About Apple, I worry less.
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post #6 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I am not sure that I want Google to have anything to do with 'crafting' legislation that affects me.

About Apple, I worry less.

I would be just as worried about apple...they are in the ad game too, and their goal as with any business is to make as much as possible, if they could get some bad stuff in law to protect the location features that they may want to use for iAds, they would be obligated to do so by the shareholders.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #7 of 76
4/25/11 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

...allowing users the option to not sync the location data with iTunes (just as they do with calendar, contacts etc.) It's not such a big deal.

1) Would that make a difference? The data will still be on your device. The problem seems to be with the amount of cache of locations not the fact that the information is cached at all, coupled with the people blowing it out of proportion and ignoring actual sensitive data that is on the device, in the backups, and in your user accounts on your Mac/PC.

2) Where can you exclude iCal and Address Book from the backups? I only see the option to prevent them from syncing from your user account and the device via iTunes.
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #8 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post

Glad to see they're bringing Google in as well.

Seems to me that those they arent bringing in have no mindshare. No RiM and no MS yet they both record location data, too.
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #9 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Would that make a difference? The data will still be on your device. The problem seems to be with the amount of cache of locations not the fact that the information is cached at all, coupled with the people blowing it out of proportion and ignoring actual sensitive data that is on the device, in the backups, and in your user accounts on your Mac/PC.

2) Where can you exclude iCal and Address Book from the backups? I only see the option to prevent them from syncing from your user account and the device via iTunes.

1) I can easily wipe the device clean, in the event.

2) Yeah, that option.

Perhaps you could tell me, since I am genuinely puzzled by your stance on this: why is it such a big deal to you that Apple have the right to collect information about you that you do not control? (Apple has admitted to collecting it twice a day, without your consent).
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post #10 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:09pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrontojPWEE
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post #11 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:10pm
I wholeheartedly believe that Google is an untrustworthy entity. I just recently attempted to cancel my Google voice number only to discover that there is no way to do so. I've written to them(not easy to do), only to receive a curt response confirming. So they said to the effect, " we care about privacy, we're working on it" / end rant.

On topic. I'm with Anant on this one. I tend to believe that Apple will do the right thing here, or at least I'll put my faith in their hands over Google any day. Its all a bit unnerving.

This is an important read: http://www.theatlantic.com/technolog...-think/237786/
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post #12 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:10pm
Phew

"Gubment" comes in to save the day against Smartphone terrorism.
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post #13 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

I would be just as worried about apple...they are in the ad game too, and their goal as with any business is to make as much as possible, if they could get some bad stuff in law to protect the location features that they may want to use for iAds, they would be obligated to do so by the shareholders.

Apple is not in the 'ad game' in any significant way. Not remotely.
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post #14 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:19pm
Oh this is too ironic - the federal government is protecting us from the private market big brothers. Do did Orwell get it exactly wrong? Who could have guesses that it would be the private market, and not Big Brother, that would be tracking our every move. Granted, Apple and Google don't also control our military, so the analogy to 1984 is not perfect. On the other hand Google and Twitter were instrumental in overthrowing the Egyptian government, so their power is very real...
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post #15 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Phew

"Gubment" comes in to save the day against Smartphone terrorism.

I don't know about gubment, smartphones, and 'terrorism,' but the links between mobile phones and terrorism are all-too-well-known for you to be making silly jokes about it.
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post #16 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

1) I can easily wipe the device clean, in the event.

Part of the hysteria was someone being able to find your device and hacking into it to find your general locations. I think that is silly when you have so much more info on your device that is important.

Quote:
2) Yeah, that option.

As I stated, I don’t think that has to do with backups, but with syncing your Mac OS and Windows calander, address book, mail books and notes from your system TO your iDevice.

Quote:
Perhaps you could tell me, since I am genuinely puzzled by your stance on this: why is it such a big deal to you that Apple have the right to collect information about you that you do not control? (Apple has admitted to collecting it twice a day, without your consent).

1) I have no problem with Apple being held accountable for their actions and have stated I would like an answer and resolution to their not clearing the cache. What I have a problem with is what I stated above about getting upset about the DB being on your iDevice and in your backups when it’s so trifling compared to actual specific data users keep on their iDevices and in their user accounts.

2) Last I read this data was not being sent to Apple, only kept in consolidated.db on your iDevice and in your iTunes backup which is how the iPhone Tracker app works and why this became an issue; not because this info was being sent to Apple. You quoted the info about it being sent to Apple as if it’s new info, not the same issue that has been discussed since last week

3) From the iPhone Tracker app site:
Why is Apple collecting this information?
It’s unclear. One guess might be that they have new features in mind that require a history of your location, but that’s pure speculation. The fact that it's transferred across devices when you restore or migrate is evidence the data-gathering isn't accidental. 4) If Apple is collecting this 2x a day then what sense does it make to keep the data cached on the device or include it in a backup if it’s simply for data mining. They seem to cancel each other out.

5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just can’t get worked up over this non-issue.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #17 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I don't know about gubment, smartphones, and 'terrorism,' but the links between mobile phones and terrorism are all-too-well-known for you to be making silly jokes about it.

This meeting does absolutely nothing for the citizen but waste Government resources. You may as well bring MasterCard/Visa/AMEX and other credit lenders in as well since my swipe puts at least my card at a specified terminal at a specified time.

Why fool citizens into thinking they have inhibited freedom of travel? I knew purchasing a cell phone meant that my every transaction could be pored over later.

Remember that guy that was sending text messages and failed to switch the train tracks? I don't think anyone ever promised me that my location on my phone wouldn't be known to others or stored.

Faux outrage coming from the media and faux concern coming from the Government.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #18 of 76
4/25/11 at 6:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Apple is not in the 'ad game' in any significant way. Not remotely.

But it looks like they are getting ready to collect information so they could be
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post #19 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

But it looks like they are getting ready to collect information so they could be

No they're not.

They could be -- and probably are -- collecting such information for a whole bunch of other reasons.
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post #20 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


2) Last I read this data was not being sent to Apple, only kept in consolidated.db on your iDevice and in your iTunes backup which is how the iPhone Tracker app works and why this became an issue; not because this info was being sent to Apple. You quoted the info about it being sent to Apple as if its new info, not the same issue that has been discussed since last week

You obviously missed this story:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...723453610.html

And this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ch_LEFTTopNews

Both very impressive pieces of reporting.
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post #21 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:12pm
Don't you realize that every nerd and his mom has already sniffed traffic going in/out of iPhones?

The information in the DB doesn't leave the device other than when it is backed up to a computer. So apple is not collecting it.
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post #22 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnthebaton View Post

On the other hand Google and Twitter were instrumental in overthrowing the Egyptian government, so their power is very real...

Good choice of word: "instrumental." Their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and Twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than Springfield and Remington were in the Civil War. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #23 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:16pm
So when these fools that are suing for a refund claim that they never knew their information was being gathered, did they just click through the EULA without reading it? Because they gave specific permission for this information to be gathered. If they didn't bother to read it, who's fault is that?

Guess I could sue the credit card company that reports my activity to Equifax et. al. What good is an agreement in this pansy society we have? (rhetorical question)
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post #24 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just cant get worked up over this non-issue.

Btw, it's pretty laughable that you keep bringing up this 'nefarious purpose' nonsense in a lot of your posts. People wanting something as basic as privacy, and expecting that corporations -- up to a reasonable point -- can respect that, is not synonymous with 'Apple is nefarious.'

And, for a guy who says he 'can't get worked up, over this non-issue' you sure do waste a lot of time posting on this non-issue! (Do a count).
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post #25 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Part of the hysteria was someone being able to find your device and hacking into it to find your general locations. I think that is silly when you have so much more info on your device that is important.


As I stated, I don’t think that has to do with backups, but with syncing your Mac OS and Windows calander, address book, mail books and notes from your system TO your iDevice.


1) I have no problem with Apple being held accountable for their actions and have stated I would like an answer and resolution to their not clearing the cache. What I have a problem with is what I stated above about getting upset about the DB being on your iDevice and in your backups when it’s so trifling compared to actual specific data users keep on their iDevices and in their user accounts.

2) Last I read this data was not being sent to Apple, only kept in consolidated.db on your iDevice and in your iTunes backup which is how the iPhone Tracker app works and why this became an issue; not because this info was being sent to Apple. You quoted the info about it being sent to Apple as if it’s new info, not the same issue that has been discussed since last week

3) From the iPhone Tracker app site:
Why is Apple collecting this information?
It’s unclear. One guess might be that they have new features in mind that require a history of your location, but that’s pure speculation. The fact that it's transferred across devices when you restore or migrate is evidence the data-gathering isn't accidental. 4) If Apple is collecting this 2x a day then what sense does it make to keep the data cached on the device or include it in a backup if it’s simply for data mining. They seem to cancel each other out.

5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just can’t get worked up over this non-issue.

How about reading the NY Times article on the subject and the submission Apple made well over a year ago on the same subject that none of the Senators have read? AL is making a fool out of himself. He used to do that for a living. So I guess its par for the course.
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post #26 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robin huber View Post

good choice of word: "instrumental." their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than springfield and remington were in the civil war. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.

+1. ..
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post #27 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post


The information in the DB doesn't leave the device other than when it is backed up to a computer. So apple is not collecting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

How about reading the NY Times article on the subject and the submission Apple made well over a year ago on the same subject that none of the Senators have read? AL is making a fool out of himself but he used to do that for a living. So I guess its par for the course.

Check out the first link in post #25 above.
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post #28 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:23pm
From what's been presented by the media, I can understand the hullaballoo, but frankly the in-depth and expert analysis performed on the data by highly qualified, highly educated and very smart people in the geospatial industry (please see the three blog posts by Peter Batty here: http://bit.ly/i7elry) cast serious doubts about whether the information found in the file even originates on the iPhone.

The evidence and analysis I've seen points very strongly to this information coming TO the device, not FROM it (though if it comes from a device it's quite possibly aggregated with similar data from other devices) and so while it can tell you the last time you were in a general area, it does nothing to locate you or your habits with any degree of accuracy.

In fact, I have yet to see a credible analysis of the data that *does* point to it being accurate or even a history of your location. At the very best it might be an approximation of the last time you were in a given arbitrary area, with no indication of accuracy, duration, or your movement within that area.

The data should be encrypted, yes, but as has been pointed out, if you've hacked into my computer you can get at my address book, browsing history, and personal documents, all of which will divulge much more information than the contents of this file.

Given all that, I'm disappointed both in the ridiculous lawsuit and the somewhat hysterical Senate Hearing summons.
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post #29 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:28pm
It's all in the Terms... read it before you agree to it next time.
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post #30 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You obviously missed this story:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...723453610.html

And this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ch_LEFTTopNews

Both very impressive pieces of reporting.

So Apple changed their privacy policy last June. This is all well known from almost a year ago and right there in the privacy policy.

To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.

Then some senators asked Apple to explain their privacy policy changes. Apple explained it.

Apple put the privacy policy change on the iTunes Store so that as many customers would see it as possible, the company said in the letter. Customers who did not want their phone to share their location can opt out by turning off location-based services on any iOS device's settings menu. Or they can say they do not agree to the new privacy policy. In that case, customers will not be able to set up an iTunes Store account, but can still activate and access any Apple device, the letter said.

Bruce Sewell, replied to Markey on this issue.

"When a customer's device sends Wi-Fi, cell tower, GPS, or diagnostic location information to Apple, it does not include any information identifying the particular device or user," Sewell wrote. It was also noted it only records a user's latitude and longitude anonymously and then immediately converted to a five-digit ZIP code. The lat/long info is not kept and the ZIP code is not matched with a particular device or user, according to Apple. Advertisers never see the ZIP code info.

So we have Apple telling the consumer they are doing it with two options of opting out, along with a letter to a senator detailing what they are recording and why.

The only stance you could possibly have that would make you upset is if you think Apple is lying, but you’ve presented no evidence to that fact.

This is not the same issue that was brought up by the App Tracker folks. This is an older, separate issue.

Again, why is this cache retained in consolidated.db for so long if Apple already has the info? The only reason that makes sense to me is if it’s a bug/oversight that isn’t clearing the cache properly the way Snow Leopard doesn’t cull temp PLISTs the way it should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And, for a guy who says he 'can't get worked up, over this non-issue' you sure do waste a lot of time posting on this non-issue! (Do a count).

Curiosity isn’t an emotion.
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post #31 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Check out the first link in post #25 above.

Other than the lack of a link in post #25... I'm not sure wtf you are talking about.
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post #32 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed View Post

It's all in the Terms... read it before you agree to it next time.

Bahhh Bahhh says the sheep.
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post #33 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:39pm
Don't people realize all the log files that there are on their computers (desktops, laptops, e-readers) from every OS and program, especially ones that access the web.

Put you computer in the hands of a good computer geek and they can tell you every single thing you did on your computer and where you were when you did it and for how long, even if you empty you cache, clear your history, delete the program or pictures or videos. The only really good way to be sure is if you wipe and reformat the hardware, and then we just go to the proxy, router, server cache and we can get alot of data there.

Heck, every net (& mobile) enabled device has a unique id that is catalogued for every interaction it makes. How do you think we put a missile in the lap of a target that is using a phone that has gone though seven sim chips as it moves across Asia? Or rebuild the path taken by a kid who is missing? Or have enough of the current favorite cookie in Safeway.

There are tons of these log files all over the automation world, your credit card, debit card, non-smart phone, pager, usb drive, your web-based email, the blog you visit, the porn you consume, your grocery club card. It is almost a default for geeks so that your stuff can be fixed when you break it and for companies to provide the service or stock the products you want.

And this is nothing to do with Orwellian futures - no company or government (Modern US/European), does this against the majority of their clients/customers/citizens implied or expressed long term wants.
What we don't want is to be told about it. That shatters the illusion of privacy we cherish so highly.

This whole issue is ignorance fueled by some real brand new idiots who have crashed into reality and are scared of sunlight.
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post #34 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Check out the first link in post #25 above.

I read them already. NY Times article was better IMO.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/te...html?src=busln
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post #35 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

Other than the lack of a link in post #25... I'm not sure wtf you are talking about.

Im sure he means #21.
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post #36 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by estyle View Post

Don't people realize all the log files that there are on their computers (desktops, laptops, e-readers) from every OS and program, especially ones that access the web.

[…]

This whole issue is ignorance fueled by some real brand new idiots who have crashed into reality and are scared of sunlight.

This whole things sounds like the irrational fear people have with flying over driving simply because they feel they have less control even though it’s safer. Anonymous lat/long data converted to a zip code is about as innocuous as you can get, and compared to the web browsing, contacts, calendar, phone records, passwords, and all that actual location data stored by apps like TomTom, Twitter, Google, and FourSquare.
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #37 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This whole things sounds like the irrational fear people have with flying over driving simply because they feel they have less control even though anonymous lat/long data converted to a zip code is innocuous compared to the web browsing, contacts, calendar, phone records, passwords, and all that actual location data stored by apps like TomTom, Twitter, Google, and FourSquare.

Sounds like? It is.
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post #38 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:52pm
Good! Great!

I mean, who gives a shit about the budget, the weakening dollar, the federal deficit- that stuff is booooooooorrrrriiiinnnnggg!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Congress.
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post #39 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Good choice of word: "instrumental." Their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and Twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than Springfield and Remington were in the Civil War. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.

Google and Twitter were instrumental in the convincing the media consuming masses that the Egyptian overthrow was an action by the majority of the citizenry, instead of it being seen as a middle and higher class internal conflict. The poor in Egypt weren't involved, and they are the majority.
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post #40 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:54pm
The reality is that businesses have been collecting information about you for years. Web bugs are rife in every web page you surf. The advent of GPS and cell location services offer a new way to gather valued added information.
Apple always asks if you are willing to let an app use location services. They also probably want to know location density and signal quality.
The interesting thing will be when someone gets convicted for being at a crime scene when a crime was being committed. Of course it could also be used to provide an alibi.

For the past couple of months I've been using Ghostery to block web-bugs.
Hopefully we will have more visibility on location tracking in the future.
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