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Apple, Google called to U.S. Senate hearing on mobile privacy - Page 2

post #41 of 76
4/25/11 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im sure he means #21.

Oh the one where it says apple only sends data out of various sorts if you turn on location services? But it certainly doesn't send out consolidated.db... the reason for this mockrage.


The only point he could make is about iAds.. but even then he could opt out. But since he is so against using web services based on location (apparently) he need not fear. But if he did- he could opt out of that too.

Don't get me wrong- I don't agree with being trackable and all kinds of other things of that nature- but we all make a concession in order to use location services. If it is really a concern- I mean truly- there are ways to anonymize yourself. It kind of makes me chuckle, despite the principle of the matter, knowing odds are some of these bitches whining about this are people with utterly vapid and boring lives of zero interest outside of advertising interests.
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post #42 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

... It kind of makes me chuckle, despite the principle of the matter, knowing odds are some of these bitches whining about this are people with utterly vapid and boring lives of zero interest outside of advertising interests.

Too True! If you are not really rich or a CEO of a secretive company or an extort-able politician or a most wanted criminal or enemy of the state...then you are just a consumer.

And as a consumer, sorry to burst people's egos, they aren't tracking you, they are tracking George.
You know the guy on the $1 bill who some times travels around with you.
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post #43 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

This meeting does absolutely nothing for the citizen but waste Government resources. You may as well bring MasterCard/Visa/AMEX and other credit lenders in as well since my swipe puts at least my card at a specified terminal at a specified time.

[...]

Faux outrage coming from the media and faux concern coming from the Government.

Amen!
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post #44 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

Bahhh Bahhh says the sheep.

So your cell phone and credit card free then, eh? Cash only?
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post #45 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogGone View Post

Web bugs are rife in every web page you surf.

For the past couple of months I've been using Ghostery to block web-bugs.
Hopefully we will have more visibility on location tracking in the future.

No kidding - Ghostery shows 21 on these pages alone!
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post #46 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:21pm
THIS is what the Senate is worried about??! Here's a cure for mobile tracking: DON'T USE A MOBILE DEVICE.

Now fix campaign finance, amend to keep a balanced budget and increase funding to alternative energy based in U.S. by decreasing monies to pointless foreign wars.

Done.
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post #47 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

Don't get me wrong- I don't agree with being trackable and all kinds of other things of that nature- but we all make a concession in order to use location services. If it is really a concern- I mean truly- there are ways to anonymize yourself. It kind of makes me chuckle, despite the principle of the matter, knowing odds are some of these bitches whining about this are people with utterly vapid and boring lives of zero interest outside of advertising interests.

Wow. You really are making a great case for yourself, with all the slurs, Ad Hominems, and pathetic self-contradictions.

Of course, without the slightest hint of vapidity.
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post #48 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

I want to know whether consumers have been informed of what is being tracked and stored by Apple and Google and whether those tracking and storage features can be disabled, said Madigan. Its important that these companies ensure that their users private information is protected.

I don't see this kind of concern over Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion gathering data on people. Or for that matter, the FBI. Can private citizens disable that "feature"?

No?
"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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post #49 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

So your cell phone and credit card free then, eh? Cash only?

no. what's your point?
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post #50 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I don't see this kind of concern over Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion gathering data on people. Or for that matter, the FBI. Can private citizens disable that "feature"?

No?

There we go again. Two wrongs make a right. Apple is no better than Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion. Or rather, since Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion do what they do (leaving aside the fact that they are required by law to let you know what they do if you ask them), Apple, Google, et. al can do what they want to do. There is no difference between a normal expectation of privacy and matters of national security. FBI is the same as Apple. The private sector is the same as the government because, if a citizen can disable his/her cell pone, (s)he must automatically be able to disable government.....

Need I go on?

The fallacious (and sophomoric) arguments in this thread are beyond belief.
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post #51 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Wow. You really are making a great case for yourself, with all the slurs, Ad Hominems, and pathetic self-contradictions.

Of course, without the slightest hint of vapidity.

slurs? lol.

ooo kay. did your feeble mind fall apart and you lose your intellectual bearings when I said an honest observation not even directed at you personally?

If you understood the technological concession I was talking about- it wouldn't be a pathetic self-contradiction. It only seems so to you due to your magazine article assisted understanding.

And of course my life is vapid- I do nothing to propel humanity to a higher level. Of course, I make small contributions here and there I'd like to think make some kind of meaningful impact. Why? Do you have yourself disillusioned that your life isn't vapid?
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post #52 of 76
4/25/11 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

ooo kay. did your feeble mind fall apart and you lose your intellectual bearings when I said an honest observation not even directed at you personally?

Who said anything about it being directed at me personally?

Oh wait, except for that 'feeble' bit.....

I'll stand by 'pathetic self-contradictions.'
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post #53 of 76
4/25/11 at 9:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Who said anything about it being directed at me personally?

Oh wait, except for that 'feeble' bit.....

I'll stand by 'pathetic self-contradictions.'

Of course you will. It's completely self serving. God forbid you did a bit more research outside of a news article that shock and awed you with presentation. Btw- I didn't call you feeble.. I asked if you were. I think you are getting lost in trying to cop out of talking tech by acting offended. but it sounds like you pull the mockrage hysterical card at the drop of a hat anyways.

So- you aren't talking about consolidated.db. Your concern is anonymous information collected every 12 hours by apple consisting of exactly what you let them have.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1975
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post #54 of 76
4/25/11 at 9:27pm
The more this crap is in the media the more my memory gets recall...

Telcos have done this with mobile forever. The phones ping the towers with their unique ID, the towers know where you are to route the call, the telco knows where the towers are and record the data "for network analysis". That data might be called on by a warrant but just as easily it might be sold, or an individual might use it, or stolen...

They have it vast repositories on us.

I'd question if Nokia et al haven't had devices pinging base for yonks querying updates or whatever (since Nokia in my experience never patched a damn thing on their feature phones) and why wouldn't that ave included unique ID of phone, tower and carrier.

People act as if this stuff just started happening. Maybe not in a file on your phone, more so on a remote server, which is hardly more private, quite the opposite.

Fear of the month
Keeps us all week
Glued to the news
That I call the confuse
Feeding us illness
An anxious gnawing
That we'll get killed
While we sleep.

Yeah it keeps us all week
you only have freedom in choice when you know you have no choice
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you only have freedom in choice when you know you have no choice
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post #55 of 76
4/25/11 at 9:41pm
Boy when Apple slips, people are so excited. Who CARES about this. I wouldn't know how to access it, the information doesn't get transmitted, and it may just be an iOS 4 bug! Whoop-de-doo! I am so glad that the federal govt has time to deal with this and not the other so very pressing matters that lay in front of us. We are about to go broke, our credit rating has been downgraded, this country is scr***d! We have Donald Duck as president who won't take control of the Libyan situation, gas prices are through the roof! AND THE PEOPLE RUNNING UP OIL PRICES ARE WALL STREET SPECULATORS!!!!! Why doesnt the former terrible comedian senator franken worry about that! Where is the investigation into our entire country being fleeced by wall street and the oil companies? Where is the class action suit being brought out for that? Why don't the two morons who filed suit against Apple file suit against the congress, wall street, and the oil companies for robbing us of our money at every level of our daily living! Who else is as frustrated about this as much if not more than I am! Absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!
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post #56 of 76
4/25/11 at 9:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

I want to know whether consumers have been informed of what is being tracked and stored by Apple and Google and whether those tracking and storage features can be disabled,"



Pretty obvious to me.
"Very disappointing to have people judging something without all the facts." - charlituna.
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"Very disappointing to have people judging something without all the facts." - charlituna.
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post #57 of 76
4/25/11 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogGone View Post

The reality is that businesses have been collecting information about you for years. Web bugs are rife in every web page you surf. The advent of GPS and cell location services offer a new way to gather valued added information.
Apple always asks if you are willing to let an app use location services. They also probably want to know location density and signal quality.
The interesting thing will be when someone gets convicted for being at a crime scene when a crime was being committed. Of course it could also be used to provide an alibi.

For the past couple of months I've been using Ghostery to block web-bugs.
Hopefully we will have more visibility on location tracking in the future.

Thanks for the tip on GHOSTERY!
It makes Safari much faster, scary to see how much data is collected at visiting some site.
"Just because they following me, it doesn't mean I am paranoid"...
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post #58 of 76
4/26/11 at 3:27am
This is the "gubment" pretending to care about our privacy. They violate our privacy more than anyone. PLEASE. Who cares about the tracking information, if you are not out doing anything wrong then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. This info. would have been great for those convicted for crimes they didn't commit. They could have proved their whereabouts. This info. could be used for many positive advances in technology such as missing person's reports ect.. Only paranoid criminals should be worried about this crap. What a waste of taxpayers money. You really think the gubment cares about your privacy? Every cell phone and GPS on the market has tracking info.
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post #59 of 76
4/26/11 at 5:19am
Did i miss the point? How is this thing news? I opted out WAY back when this was first discussed on appleinsider. So did everybody else i know personaly whom own an iphone.

I tried Iphone tracker but I tcouldnt find anything of interest on my machine....

Are we talking about the same thing here?
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post #60 of 76
4/26/11 at 5:52am
So what happens when this little group of government run up against the other group of government who demand this information be kept BY PHONE NETWORKS and turned over to the government under legislation compelling them to do so.

The consolidated db is rubbish, when I checked it the big black area where I supposedly spend most of my time is a city 70 miles away, my house and workplace are just small orange dots among the hundreds of small orange dots I have passed by.

I can wipe my phone, delete the file from my encrypted backup and restore my phone without ANY of this rather useless and inaccurate information.

If you don't wan to be trackable burn your drivers licence, passport, credit cards. ATM cards, cellphones, computers, don't participate in society by voting and deal strictly in cash.

Of course you will deprive yourself of most of the benefits of living in a modern society but you will be anonymous and will leave very few traces.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #61 of 76
4/26/11 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So Apple changed their privacy policy last June. This is all well known from almost a year ago and right there in the privacy policy.

To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.

Then some senators asked Apple to explain their privacy policy changes. Apple explained it.

Apple put the privacy policy change on the iTunes Store so that as many customers would see it as possible, the company said in the letter. Customers who did not want their phone to share their location can opt out by turning off location-based services on any iOS device's settings menu. Or they can say they do not agree to the new privacy policy. In that case, customers will not be able to set up an iTunes Store account, but can still activate and access any Apple device, the letter said.

Bruce Sewell, replied to Markey on this issue.

"When a customer's device sends Wi-Fi, cell tower, GPS, or diagnostic location information to Apple, it does not include any information identifying the particular device or user," Sewell wrote. It was also noted it only records a user's latitude and longitude anonymously and then immediately converted to a five-digit ZIP code. The lat/long info is not kept and the ZIP code is not matched with a particular device or user, according to Apple. Advertisers never see the ZIP code info.

So we have Apple telling the consumer they are doing it with two options of opting out, along with a letter to a senator detailing what they are recording and why.

The only stance you could possibly have that would make you upset is if you think Apple is lying, but youve presented no evidence to that fact.

This is not the same issue that was brought up by the App Tracker folks. This is an older, separate issue.

Again, why is this cache retained in consolidated.db for so long if Apple already has the info? The only reason that makes sense to me is if its a bug/oversight that isnt clearing the cache properly the way Snow Leopard doesnt cull temp PLISTs the way it should.



Curiosity isnt an emotion.

Will someone make him a mod already?

At least it will give him some justification for posting on every fucking thread.

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post #62 of 76
4/26/11 at 10:25am
Someone once told me about something called Echelon and about GCHQ where they can listen-in to my phone conversations, read my SMS, email and even reproduce any fax messages I might send or receive.

Even if I had no tech toys on me and was living in some far out cave somewhere, the government has the ability to track me via satellite. Or so they say.

And I'm going to sit here and worry about cell tower locations on my iDevices?
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post #63 of 76
4/26/11 at 10:34am
Why aren't GPS makers for cars and boats there too?
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #64 of 76
4/26/11 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnette View Post

THIS is what the Senate is worried about??! Here's a cure for mobile tracking: DON'T USE A MOBILE DEVICE.

Now fix campaign finance, amend to keep a balanced budget and increase funding to alternative energy based in U.S. by decreasing monies to pointless foreign wars.

Done.

Oh come on, they all get bribed, sorry I mean lobbied, to not do anything like the important stuff on your list! This is an excuse for personal publicity for the senators. Too good to miss.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #65 of 76
4/26/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
why is it such a big deal to you that Apple have the right to collect information about you that you do not control? (Apple has admitted to collecting it twice a day, without your consent).

The big deal IMO is only that it is on the device/computer, and therefore no longer anonymous.

I dont really care if Apple or anyone else collects anonymous data, so long as it doesnt impact my device's performance. But putting on the device like that ties it to you. Anyone who steals the device (or hacks into it or whatever) knows the data is yours.
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post #66 of 76
4/26/11 at 10:59am
Quote:
Did i miss the point? How is this thing news? I opted out WAY back when this was first discussed on appleinsider. So did everybody else i know personaly whom own an iphone. I tried Iphone tracker but I tcouldnt find anything of interest on my machine....

According to this source, you are not given an option to opt-out.

Quote:
The iPhone system, by contrast, appears to record the data whether or not the user agrees. Apple declined to comment on why the file is created or whether it can be disabled.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...-privacy-fears
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post #67 of 76
4/26/11 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

There we go again. Two wrongs make a right. Apple is no better than Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion. Or rather, since Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion do what they do (leaving aside the fact that they are required by law to let you know what they do if you ask them), Apple, Google, et. al can do what they want to do. There is no difference between a normal expectation of privacy and matters of national security. FBI is the same as Apple. The private sector is the same as the government because, if a citizen can disable his/her cell pone, (s)he must automatically be able to disable government.....

Need I go on?

The fallacious (and sophomoric) arguments in this thread are beyond belief.

All you did was call my argument fallacious and sophomoric. That doesn't help me. On what grounds is Apple's or Google's data collection "wrong" (or illegal?) Os it because it isn't regulated by the FTC? Is it because they failed to disclose that it being logged? What kind of information should a program not log? If I handle a user password and my program crashes, would a crash dump file containing the password be considered "wrong" in your sense? Tell me again what the damage is if my consolidated.db gets exposed. What then? Do I have a right to privacy? Is it in the Constitution?
"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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post #68 of 76
4/26/11 at 1:06pm
Why is this an issue?

How do these people think apps like Google Maps and MotionX and all that get their data? Directly hitting the hardware? Umm no because UNIX based systems don't allow that.

You agreed to location tracking when you allowed apps to use that part of the OS.

Does anyone really think Apple is going to use this information? There are millions of people using iPhones/iPads. Do they really think that Apple cares about spending resources on tracking people in something that doesn't really add any value to their business?

Google on the other hand...
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post #69 of 76
4/26/11 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

? Tell me again what the damage is if my consolidated.db gets exposed. What then? Do I have a right to privacy? Is it in the Constitution?


I am pretty sure it's covered under the 4th amendment when it comes to authorities. Private companies are a different beast.

That dude isn't coming back until he finds a better article on finance.google AAPL page
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post #70 of 76
4/26/11 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sip View Post

Someone once told me about something called Echelon and about GCHQ where they can listen-in to my phone conversations, read my SMS, email and even reproduce any fax messages I might send or receive.

Even if I had no tech toys on me and was living in some far out cave somewhere, the government has the ability to track me via satellite. Or so they say.

And I'm going to sit here and worry about cell tower locations on my iDevices?

Splinter Cell is only a game.

That being said Tom Clancy did used to work for the CIA so what we read in his books are more than likely real or being worked on.
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post #71 of 76
4/26/11 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Why is this an issue?

Because it is logged and stored on the device. What is the point of logging it to do all the things you talked about? Why does it need to be logged to do those things?


Quote:
Google on the other hand...

...doesnt do this kinda thing without your explicit consent. Their system is Opt-in...you have to actually tell them you want to do it. You arent logged by default.
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post #72 of 76
4/26/11 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sip View Post

Someone once told me about something called Echelon and about GCHQ where they can listen-in to my phone conversations, read my SMS, email and even reproduce any fax messages I might send or receive.

Even if I had no tech toys on me and was living in some far out cave somewhere, the government has the ability to track me via satellite. Or so they say.

And I'm going to sit here and worry about cell tower locations on my iDevices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Splinter Cell is only a game.

That being said Tom Clancy did used to work for the CIA so what we read in his books are more than likely real or being worked on.

Well, these things are more NSA activities. Clearly, they can listen to your phone conversations and read your SMS, and they've been monitoring international (at least) fax transmissions for years. (The fax thing is a simple matter of data capture of the fax image and then applying rather sophisticated OCR to it.)
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post #73 of 76
4/26/11 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

... Do I have a right to privacy? Is it in the Constitution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

I am pretty sure it's covered under the 4th amendment when it comes to authorities. ...

The 1st, 3rd, 4th, 9th & 14th Amendments. Note particularly the 9th Amendment in relation to the original question:

Quote:
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The right to privacy is fundamental to liberty. In fact, without privacy, there is no liberty. To the founders, this seemed so fundamental as to not require specific mention in the Constitution. Fortunately, they had the foresight to tell us that just because a right isn't mentioned in the Constitution, doesn't mean we don't have it.
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post #74 of 76
4/26/11 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDenver View Post

[Google's] system is Opt-in...you have to actually tell them you want to do it. You arent logged by default.

Asking you if you want to use locations services, but failing to mention that you'll be sending personally identifiable location data back to Google HQ even when you aren't specifically using location based apps isn't exactly what I would call opt-in. To be able to opt-in, it has to be unambiguously disclosed to you exactly what you are opting in to. Google's highly invasive system is more like tricked-in.
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post #75 of 76
4/26/11 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Asking you if you want to use locations services, but failing to mention that you'll be sending personally identifiable location data back to Google HQ even when you aren't specifically using location based apps isn't exactly what I would call opt-in.

The point being, when you first start your Android device and connect your account to it, you are told very clearly that this information will be collected. It does not say "only when using so-and-so app". Its a check box. If you dont trust google, just uncheck it. Location services and stuff will all still work. You just wont be sending google data.

If Apple was not logging the info on the device, I would not even care. I dont think most people would. I dont think most people care about sending anonymous data to Google or Apple.


Quote:
To be able to opt-in, it has to be unambiguously disclosed to you exactly what you are opting in to.

I disagree. I think all they are required to do is notify you that it is being done. If you want more details, you can pursue it from there.


Quote:
Google's highly invasive system is more like tricked-in.

Google's system is invasive but Apple's is not? Apple doesnt even give you the option.
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post #76 of 76
4/26/11 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDenver View Post

Because it is logged and stored on the device. What is the point of logging it to do all the things you talked about? Why does it need to be logged to do those things?




...doesnt do this kinda thing without your explicit consent. Their system is Opt-in...you have to actually tell them you want to do it. You arent logged by default.

Google lets you know what they want you to know. Even the guberment doesn't know what they are doing. Do you have a gmail account or do google searches? You are in for a big surprise.
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