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A Boomer Tries to Rub the Blindspot Away: Michael Kinsley - Page 4

post #121 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is utterly, 100% false.

Denmark's major earning export is knowledge and research. It's frequently called the best place in the world to open a new business.

The standard of living is HIGHER IN DENMARK THAN IT IS IN THE UNITED STATES. You can whine about the tax policy, and everyone in Denmark does, all the time.

And then they pick up the kids from the free playschool and go home to watch something on their flatscreen TV and plan a holiday to Thailand.

The Danish middle class is pretty repellent, but there's no poverty, at all. There are fewer stinking wealthy people. And it comes top in the happiness indices year after year.

Which might just prove that there's more to a successful society than a tiny minority getting stinking rich, and there's more to life than money.

Ai, ai.

You attribute their success to democratic socialism (if I'm wrong, please say so).

I attribute it to economic freedom (Denmark has one of the freest economies in the world--freer and less regulated than the US economy).

Are both ideas mutually exclusive? Or are we both right?

Freer Is Better

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #122 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

China doesn't give their food to Hong Kong for free. And yes, there is a lot of meat and produce that is locally produced, for your information. Most of our beef comes from Australia, not China. Most of our pork is local. Our oranges are almost all Sunkist, from the good ol' US of A.

So please. Show your ignorance the backdoor before you speak out of it.

Do they pay a rate that enables all the services you mention?

Quote:
You don't put the cart before the horse. Cut spending first, then cut taxes. But do it while you enable the lower and middle class to live at a reasonable standard of living.
Nope. The Tea Party wants to cut taxes first, thinking that cutting taxes can magically increase revenue, which is idiotic. The Tea Party would love to eliminate minimum wage, which is idiotic. The Tea Party wants to cut regulations which keep people from getting sick or dying at restaurants, or which keep deep drilling oil rigs from exploding and creating ecological and economic disasters.

Much like Noah mentioned, I have no idea to what you are referring. No one here has been suggesting massive tax cuts. The arguments has been about the most minimal of spending decreases. "Radical" solutions are seeking to take us back to 2008 spending levels when Bush and the Democratic Congress were "ONLY" running $450 billion a year deficits instead of $1.5 trillion. Bush spending levels are now RADICAL.

Quote:
Care to respond to my post, or are you just throwing out bullshit, as usual?

"...people seem to be happy with this system."

That's all I need to know. Thanks.

I responded but you haven't supported anything nor responded. Half a dozen people have asked you to clarify aspects of the Hong Kong model and you just ignore the points and insult them. See above as an example.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #123 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is utterly, 100% false.

Denmark's major earning export is knowledge and research. It's frequently called the best place in the world to open a new business.

The standard of living is HIGHER IN DENMARK THAN IT IS IN THE UNITED STATES. You can whine about the tax policy, and everyone in Denmark does, all the time.

And then they pick up the kids from the free playschool and go home to watch something on their flatscreen TV and plan a holiday to Thailand.

The Danish middle class is pretty repellent, but there's no poverty, at all. There are fewer stinking wealthy people. And it comes top in the happiness indices year after year.

Which might just prove that there's more to a successful society than a tiny minority getting stinking rich, and there's more to life than money.

Ai, ai.

Denmark drills wealth out of the ground and spends it on people. People in the U.S. would love for this to be our policy.

Regardless of what you claim Denmark does export more than information and runs a trade surplus with Europe and the U.S.

As I've said each time this is brought up. If we drilled to the same degree, didn't let our currency be debased, just like Denmark did by not joining the Euro, and demanded fair instead of free trade, we'd solve a lot of our issues as well.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #124 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is utterly, 100% false.

Denmark's major earning export is knowledge and research. It's frequently called the best place in the world to open a new business.

The standard of living is HIGHER IN DENMARK THAN IT IS IN THE UNITED STATES. You can whine about the tax policy, and everyone in Denmark does, all the time.

And then they pick up the kids from the free playschool and go home to watch something on their flatscreen TV and plan a holiday to Thailand.

The Danish middle class is pretty repellent, but there's no poverty, at all. There are fewer stinking wealthy people. And it comes top in the happiness indices year after year.

Which might just prove that there's more to a successful society than a tiny minority getting stinking rich, and there's more to life than money.

Ai, ai.

Not to mention that if it's true that the "welfare state" is making everybody lazy, then those in that society who are truly motivated will excel far easier, through lack of competition. The author's claims on the story make no logical sense whatsoever.
post #125 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not to mention that if it's true that the "welfare state" is making everybody lazy, then those in that society who are truly motivated will excel far easier, through lack of competition. The author's claims on the story make no logical sense whatsoever.

What incentive do people have to earn wealth if most of it is forcibly removed from them by the "welfare state" to support those on welfare?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #126 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What incentive do people have to earn wealth if most of it is forcibly removed from them by the "welfare state" to support those on welfare?

If you earn double what the next guy does and the government takes away 60% of what you both earn, you're still earning double what the next guy does.

If the lazy bums in the council estate are given free housing, you're still happier with 40% of the money you earn, and you're still going to have more than they do.

There are people in Denmark who own yachts and mansions and villas. According to your limited perspective, there shouldn't be any.
post #127 of 142

Good idea. Let's get rid of big oil and nationalize oil and gas production in the US. I'm sure that's what you mean, right?
post #128 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I responded but you haven't supported anything nor responded. Half a dozen people have asked you to clarify aspects of the Hong Kong model and you just ignore the points and insult them. See above as an example.

Bullshit. You did not respond at all to what I said about the goal being a society of happy people, not a handful of wealthy billionaires. You did not respond at all to my pointing out at the author of the article is completely oblivious to this point.

What 'half a dozen people?' Lying again.

What exactly do you want to know about the Hong Kong system?

Yes, the services provided are paid for. Billionaires in Hong Kong pay a higher percentage of tax than billionaires in the US. The middle class pays less. What do you want to know?

In addition to tax revenue, the Hong Kong government makes a huge amount of money from land sales, which is compounded by the insane pricing of land in the territory. Mainland Chinese nouvaux riche are investing huge amounts in local real estate.

As a result, real estate is hugely overvalued in Hong Kong and it's presenting a problem. The bubble let out some air in the nineties, but it's been inflating rapidly recently. Home owners who can only comfortably afford their mortgage are the ones who are going to get hit hard, again. Anti-speculative measures have been put into place in the last few years. But it's still going to crash, hard.

And when it does, the rich will get hit, corporations will get hit, and homeowners will get hit.

The poor and the middle class who are renting will mostly be spared.
post #129 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If we drilled to the same degree...

Just curious here, and I suspect there's some misperception. What's the per-capita annual production of oil and gas in Denmark? How about in the US?

Actually, the main difference here is, as you pointed out, that e drilling of natural resources in Scandinavia benefits the people. The drilling of natural resources in the US benefits no one but Big Oil.
post #130 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Actually, the main difference here is, as you pointed out, that e drilling of natural resources in Scandinavia benefits the people. The drilling of natural resources in the US benefits no one but Big Oil.

I suspect there's some misperception alright.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #131 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit. You did not respond at all to what I said about the goal being a society of happy people, not a handful of wealthy billionaires. You did not respond at all to my pointing out at the author of the article is completely oblivious to this point.

The points being brought up to you are not hyperbole. They are facts and figures. They are real points. If I ask you if the peasants picking veggies have Hong Kong provided health insurance or are paid wages to enable them to purchase insurance that is a question that can be answered.

Societial goals and claims about entire nations of happiness cannot be confirmed. You are talking from utopian delusions in your head. How exactly does someone debate from a future foward position? You are not asking someone to respond to reality but to what you imagine the world should be in your head and lashing out angrily when people won't debate your head.
Quote:
What 'half a dozen people?' Lying again.

I'd say I've seen six, sure.

Quote:
What exactly do you want to know about the Hong Kong system?

Are you claiming the tax rates, laws, immigration policies, etc cannot be looked up for Hong Kong? Items like police can stop and question you for any reason, and you must have ID on you can easily be looked up. Items like borders are closed, city is walled off, and peasants from China cannot just waltz in and grab whatever services they desire can be looked up. The actual income tax rates of Hong Kong can be looked up easily.

Why don't you look up say, your statement on happiness and the United States and prove that the only people in the U.S who are happy are a few billionaires while everyone else is unhappy. Please support your hyperbole and then we can move on to utopia in your brain and you can attempt to support those statements as well.

Quote:
Yes, the services provided are paid for. Billionaires in Hong Kong pay a higher percentage of tax than billionaires in the US. The middle class pays less. What do you want to know?

As has been pointed out the income tax rates much lower than those in the U.S.

Quote:
In addition to tax revenue, the Hong Kong government makes a huge amount of money from land sales, which is compounded by the insane pricing of land in the territory. Mainland Chinese nouvaux riche are investing huge amounts in local real estate.

Are you suggesting there isn't a property tax in the United States?

Quote:
As a result, real estate is hugely overvalued in Hong Kong and it's presenting a problem. The bubble let out some air in the nineties, but it's been inflating rapidly recently. Home owners who can only comfortably afford their mortgage are the ones who are going to get hit hard, again. Anti-speculative measures have been put into place in the last few years. But it's still going to crash, hard.

The bubble is a function of currency. China has been manipulating their currency for a long time. The U.S. is basically at war with them and the weapon of choice is inflation. I've posted in several threads about this and regardless of what you want to claim about logic, it is dead on. Governments passing laws to try to obscure their own bad currency policy doesn't fix the policy.

The reason people are trying to "speculate" is they want to own something tangible with their money since the government is devaluing it to keep a trade advantage with the United States.
Quote:
And when it does, the rich will get hit, corporations will get hit, and homeowners will get hit.

The poor and the middle class who are renting will mostly be spared.

I would seriously suggest you do some reading on inflation and bubbles. As much as I enjoy discussing things with you Tonton that statement is akin to saying it is okay to drink and drive. It is literally the type of statement that reflects future self-harm.

Sure the rich take a haircut when the results of inflation play out. Inflation is an invisible form of taxation that governments use to cover the costs of deficit spending. The poor and middle class get hurt the worst though by far. The often have no inflation hedged investments and no investments beyond some savings or annuity, both completely devalued by inflation.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #132 of 142
Dude, Trumptman, I won't even respond to you any more. You don't even know that the Hong Kong Dollar is PEGGED to the fucking US Dollar, and has been, at the same rate (7.8) since 1983! You claim the Hong Kong housing bubble is a function of Chinese currency! You know absolutely nothing about anything. I'm done with you, you fucking moron.
post #133 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Dude, Trumptman, I won't even respond to you any more. You don't even know that the Hong Kong Dollar is PEGGED to the fucking US Dollar, and has been, at the same rate (7.8) since 1983! You claim the Hong Kong housing bubble is a function of Chinese currency! You know absolutely nothing about anything. I'm done with you, you fucking moron.

Tonton, the yuan is also pegged to the U.S. dollar. You fail to see that in flooding the world with US dollars, and forcing currencies pegged to the dollar to also inflate that what it does is create inflation in three different economies rather than one. The U.S. is doing this on purpose. Be pissy if you want but you note the effects but don't desire to see the cause.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #134 of 142
Just in case anyone on my ignore list is ignorant enough (surprise, surprise) to make a claim like the Chinese Yuan is pegged to the US Dollar, I'd better post this...

LINK
post #135 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Just in case anyone on my ignore list is ignorant enough (surprise, surprise) to make a claim like the Chinese Yuan is pegged to the US Dollar, I'd better post this...

LINK

How can you so completely fail to get the big picture on this?!?!?

I mean seriously.

The yuan was and is being kept artificially low. The Chinese agree to let it float a small bit in relation to where it honestly should be compared to the dollar.


The yuan begins to appreciate against the dollar. This increases it's purchasing power relative to the dollar. It should be appreciating much more, because of how debased the dollar has become.

Mainland Chinese nouvaux riche are investing huge amounts in local real estate.
As a result, real estate is hugely overvalued in Hong Kong and it's presenting a problem.


Those are your words. The Chinese economy has absorbed all the inflation it can absorb. The currency is allowed to float up just a small bit and it is causing housing bubbles in Hong Kong aka it is exporting the inflation to Hong Kong.

The change is recent. Sorry if pegged is too strong a word and got you upset. The change is recent and is part of a what amounts to a currency war going on.


Here's another example from today.


Quote:
Buyers from mainland China are leading a wave of Asian investment in Vancouver real estate as China tries to damp property speculation at home.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #136 of 142
Words have meaning. A "pegged" currency means, specifically, that the currency has set margins against a target currency in which it is allowed to be traded. I'm sorry if some people's ignorance of the meaning of that word leads to their misuse of it, but it's still ignorance.
post #137 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Words have meaning. A "pegged" currency means, specifically, that the currency has set margins against a target currency in which it is allowed to be traded. I'm sorry if some people's ignorance of the meaning of that word leads to their misuse of it, but it's still ignorance.

The yuan was pegged until mid 2010. I'm trying to convey how the U.S. is pumping inflation out and how it is moving through various economies. If you don't want to understand that, then that is your prerogative.

Do you want to have a discussion or do you want to play gotcha? I could note you only noted the 1983 peg and not the small trade range it is allowed to float from 7.75-7.85 since 2005, etc. Oh man, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

But really what would the point be there? This should be discussion, not gotcha. Do you want to discuss the ramifications of inflation or play games instead?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #138 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Do you want to have a discussion or do you want to play gotcha?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Do you want to discuss the ramifications of inflation or play games instead?

I know where I'm placing my bets.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #139 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The yuan was pegged until mid 2010.

Oh, really? I guess the plot of the Yuan against the dollar that shows the yuan appreciating by nearly 50% over the last five years is manipulation of statistics...
post #140 of 142
The truth about the pegging issue is more complicated. The answer to the question about whether the Yuan has been pegged to the Dollar is:

Yes. No. Yes. Maybe. No. Yes. We're not quite sure.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #141 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The truth about the pegging issue is more complicated. The answer to the question about whether the Yuan has been pegged to the Dollar is:

Yes. No. Yes. Maybe. No. Yes. We're not quite sure.

Exactly. However, the Hong Kong Dollar has been pegged +/- 0.02% (that's a real peg) since 1983. Big difference.
post #142 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The truth about the pegging issue is more complicated. The answer to the question about whether the Yuan has been pegged to the Dollar is:

Yes. No. Yes. Maybe. No. Yes. We're not quite sure.

I think there's also a "perhaps" in there somewhere.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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